However, you're still suggesting that Haskell is only good for prototyping, not for "real apps", which understandably for you are Google-scale apps. There is a very long distance between what Google does and what I need to do, today, and premature scaling is the death of many projects. But let's be ambitious and pretend that one day I will want to operate at that scale. Assuming C++ is out of the running, is there really no alternative to Java?
I've been working on apps in PHP (Flickr, now Wikipedia) and while I admire the language, in the same way I admire how weeds can colonize an area efficiently, I am not going to choose that for a personal project. I agree with your assessments of Python and Ruby, and I'm not sufficiently enamored of any framework in those languages to make it worth the trouble. I can sling Perl as well as anybody (even in a style approaching functional) and it can be very efficient, but it's hard to find collaborators these days.
This seems to leave Erlang, Haskell, Scala, or maybe Node.js + JavaScript.
Scala seems like what an enterprise would choose for its foray into functional programming, and indeed that seems to be the hopes of its creators. While it's a "safe" choice, for Java shops maybe, I fear the massive shear forces between Java's way of thinking and Scala's attempt to paper over all that with functional thinking. Not to mention the complexity of that language. Still, it seems to work for Twitter, FourSquare, et al.
There's nothing wrong with Erlang, and it has its adherents in industry, but the syntax annoys me.
I'm already an expert in JS, and a codebase of a single language has its benefits. The intense competition in the browser to make JS an application language seems to have already vaulted JS performance over other scripting languages and new libraries are being written every day. Still, it just feels odd to write directly to a database or file in JavaScript. And I've gotten myself tangled up in JS' asynchrony a bit too much recently. Maybe that's an irrational prejudice.
I guess this is why I've been looking on Haskell; in part because it offers some hope of really writing a lot less code and having that code be so well-typed, automatically, that it practically writes its own tests (see QuickCheck) or doesn't even need them. It seems like there ought to be some way to get the best of that without needing to shoot yourself in the foot because you suddenly want to log some action and you didn't define some code twenty layers above it as monadic.
Assuming C++ is out of the running, the alternative to Java is basically Scala. And that's it. Maybe Go will be an alternative in the eventual future, but right now it lacks the library & tool support.
There's also nothing wrong with writing your v1 in one language and then rewriting in a different one if you need to scale. You will probably need to do this anyway, even if you start in C++ or Java, because the architecture needed to scale by an order of magnitude is usually very different from the architecture needed to iterate quickly.
However, you're still suggesting that Haskell is only good for prototyping, not for "real apps", which understandably for you are Google-scale apps. There is a very long distance between what Google does and what I need to do, today, and premature scaling is the death of many projects. But let's be ambitious and pretend that one day I will want to operate at that scale. Assuming C++ is out of the running, is there really no alternative to Java?
I've been working on apps in PHP (Flickr, now Wikipedia) and while I admire the language, in the same way I admire how weeds can colonize an area efficiently, I am not going to choose that for a personal project. I agree with your assessments of Python and Ruby, and I'm not sufficiently enamored of any framework in those languages to make it worth the trouble. I can sling Perl as well as anybody (even in a style approaching functional) and it can be very efficient, but it's hard to find collaborators these days.
This seems to leave Erlang, Haskell, Scala, or maybe Node.js + JavaScript.
Scala seems like what an enterprise would choose for its foray into functional programming, and indeed that seems to be the hopes of its creators. While it's a "safe" choice, for Java shops maybe, I fear the massive shear forces between Java's way of thinking and Scala's attempt to paper over all that with functional thinking. Not to mention the complexity of that language. Still, it seems to work for Twitter, FourSquare, et al.
There's nothing wrong with Erlang, and it has its adherents in industry, but the syntax annoys me.
I'm already an expert in JS, and a codebase of a single language has its benefits. The intense competition in the browser to make JS an application language seems to have already vaulted JS performance over other scripting languages and new libraries are being written every day. Still, it just feels odd to write directly to a database or file in JavaScript. And I've gotten myself tangled up in JS' asynchrony a bit too much recently. Maybe that's an irrational prejudice.
I guess this is why I've been looking on Haskell; in part because it offers some hope of really writing a lot less code and having that code be so well-typed, automatically, that it practically writes its own tests (see QuickCheck) or doesn't even need them. It seems like there ought to be some way to get the best of that without needing to shoot yourself in the foot because you suddenly want to log some action and you didn't define some code twenty layers above it as monadic.