> unleashing a pandemic which has killed 1.5M people
If a similarly dangerous flu mutation jumps from a pig to an undocumented agricultural worker in the United States, and goes viral across the globe, will you also refer to that as 'unleashing a pandemic'?
Animal rights advocacy groups have for decades been reminding us that conditions in modern farms are dangerous and unsanitary, so it's not like we don't have any advance warning for it.
... Also, it became incredibly clear to anyone that was paying attention that COVID was a serious threat in January. Yet, most of the western world collectively sat on its hands for the next month and a half. Will your historians also leave a few chapters on the subject of just how incapable our societies are at dealing with epidemics?
Where China failed was not in allowing the virus to jump to a human, it was in covering it up. I'd like to hope that if the same thing happened in the US, the free press would be screaming about how it started, we'd be taking samples and warning other countries, and we would work with other countries to limit travel of those who may be infected.
> we'd be taking samples and warning other countries
After the first US covid case was detected in Washington state on Jan 20th, the Seattle Flu Study scientists wanted to use their existing flu swabs samples to test if coronavirus was already spreading in the wild in Seattle (it was). But state and federal government did not allow them to. Finally on Feb 25th, they started testing their samples without permission, and found community spread.
There are other interpretations of this story, but any sensation-seeking newspaper would surely run this story as the government attempting to cover up that the virus is already spreading.
> To repurpose the tests for monitoring the coronavirus, they would need the support of state and federal officials. But nearly everywhere Dr. Chu turned, officials repeatedly rejected the idea, interviews and emails show, even as weeks crawled by and outbreaks emerged in countries outside of China
The coverup was incredibly unsuccessful, and delayed global response by about two weeks.
We squandered a lot more than two weeks of time in reacting to it.
Given the low quality of press coverage, and of public accountability in the US for how the pandemic was handled, I can't imagine how it would have been any better if we had patient zero.
Also, note that the CCP cracked down hard on the leaders responsible for the failure in handling the pandemic. Many senior politicians lost their jobs. The US, meanwhile, nearly re-elected the president, did re-elect the senate, and most of the state governments up for election.
You look at that, and tell me - which of the two countries actually held their political class accountable for its failures? Note that the scope of failure in the US was two orders of magnitude worse...
It does astonish me how poorly people understand different in _magnitude_ between offences and how quickly we get into whataboutism.
>If a similarly dangerous flu mutation jumps from a pig to an undocumented agricultural worker in the United States, and goes viral across the globe, will you also refer to that as 'unleashing a pandemic'?
Absolutely, why on earth would you think I wouldn't? I'm borderline offended by the implication and this subtle-not-so-subtle 'if you criticise x you're racist' narrative is dangerous nonsense. Refrain from it please.
>Animal rights advocacy groups have for decades been reminding us that conditions in modern farms are dangerous and unsanitary, so it's not like we don't have any advance warning for it.
Absolutely, and spillover from ecological incursions is a huge issue. I hope there is more emphasis put on the risks now. I recommend the book 'spillover' on this topic.
However it's vitally important to realise - some countries are at higher risk than others for various reasons, China being a HUGE flashpoint for this issue, and there ARE things we can do.
Wet markets are disgusting horrific places and also HUGELY risky from a spillover event perspective. In 2003 and SARS 1 (note covid-19 is literally SARS v2) this is precisely how the virus emerged. China's response was, as now, to only briefly close these horrific places of animal torture. The world remained silent and no pressure was put upon them to change this. We already had our warning.
They additionally covered up the outbreak and punished those who reported it. Do not defend this either implicitly or explicitly. There are reports that, had they immediately reported it, we could have avoided 95% of worldwide cases. 1.5M * 0.95 is quite a lot of deaths to be directly responsible for isn't it?
As I said in another comment, it is very possible another pandemic could break out even if China did everything they could to prevent it. But to ignore serious points of vulnerability which indeed caused a previous outbreak and then to try to cover it up is unforgivable. There is a genuine case for that being considered at the very least a crime against humanity if not an act of war given the consequences.
>... Also, it became incredibly clear to anyone that was paying attention that COVID was a serious threat in January. Yet, most of the western world collectively sat on its hands for the next month and a half. Will your historians also leave a few chapters on the subject of just how incapable our societies are at dealing with epidemics?
China told the WHO there was no human-to-human transmission in January as per their famous tweet. And it came out later evidence to the contrary came not from Chinese authorities but in fact WHO representatives on the ground. So believing the WHO and China is part of why.
No question most countries utterly fucked this up however, and there is much to improve, but to ignore the totalitarian, evil government responsible for many millions of deaths and who harvest organs and put people in concentration camps and to do the whole 'oh but you'd never say that about the USA lol' thing is really not on. I would be just as firm on any country responsible and if they did not do EVERYTHING in their power to prevent and mitigate this I would castigate them, even if it were my own country.
In China doing that gets you disappeared. Remember that and remember the privilege you have to disagree with me. The Chinese do not have that luxury.
> Absolutely, why on earth would you think I wouldn't?
Because in this very sub-thread, you're making statements like:
> China's response was, as now, to only briefly close these horrific places of animal torture.
In contrast to what? The horrific places of animal torture from where our supermarket meat comes from?
Pardon my skepticism, but I'm not sure you're applying the same standards to their barbarism, as you are to our barbarism. You don't seem to be applying the same standards to their ineptitude and malfeasance as you are to our ineptitude and malfeasance.
It comes off as nationalistic baiting, which is incredibly frustrating, because it's happening in the context of lordnacho's post. There's a prevailing zeitgheist in the US that all our problems are the fault of other, bad countries - which is used as a diversion from finding actual solutions to these problems. We've seen this play out over the past year, to the tune of 250,000 dead.
You're surely familiar with the meme of a an incompetent authoritarian regime that's busy blaming everyone around them for their domestic problems, while their people starve. Over the past year, we've been living this meme. We should be looking back at it with self-reflection, as opposed to cheerleading it.
I don't think it's so much whataboutery as disappointment about the west.
What you say about China is true, there's a one-party state that has done some brutal things.
The disappointment is that we in the west thought we had a better way to govern, but the state where the disease originated is doing quite well despite all those criticisms, and the states where people are supposedly free are the ones where people are locked up in their homes unable to celebrate Christmas with their families.
We had a head start, we had sources that knew the truth about the disease, we'd seen smaller outbreaks before, and we have more money.
It's also simplistic to blame China for the whole thing. "They could have saved 95% of lives" is not the whole ethical story. If you know you're living next to someone unreliable, you need to take your own precautions.
If a similarly dangerous flu mutation jumps from a pig to an undocumented agricultural worker in the United States, and goes viral across the globe, will you also refer to that as 'unleashing a pandemic'?
Animal rights advocacy groups have for decades been reminding us that conditions in modern farms are dangerous and unsanitary, so it's not like we don't have any advance warning for it.
... Also, it became incredibly clear to anyone that was paying attention that COVID was a serious threat in January. Yet, most of the western world collectively sat on its hands for the next month and a half. Will your historians also leave a few chapters on the subject of just how incapable our societies are at dealing with epidemics?