I thought you all might like to know that we received the following email from Mayron (shared here with permission):
My www.freepianomethod.com website continues to thrive thanks to your generous mentioning of it in your Hacker News. I am receiving emails from all over the world from people who, until now, had no way to learn music or to play the piano. I am 80 years old, and my dream of sharing my piano method, for free, with the world is coming true. Thank you for all you have done!
I just received an email from a music studio in Mongolia; the owner of the studio told me he is now using my extensive free piano method as the only teaching literature in his studio. And several school districts have emailed me that they are conducting "at home" teaching via computer and my piano method for students who are unable to attend school due to Covid lockdowns. You have no idea how happy these emails make me! My piano method is my life's work, and now it will continue to live throughout the world long after I am gone!
Worth mentioning for anyone who happens not to know about it that there's a massive repository of out-of-copyright (either by time or decision of the composer) music scores and recordings for all instruments by a huge number of composers. Using the 'genre' section is useful for finding music of an appropriate level for performers.
They are working to typeset out of copyright works using GNU LilyPond. The scores are particularly beautifully typeset and very easy to read when printed.
Nice resource that's better than nothing, but just want to note that there are numerous engraving errors in the couple scores I looked at that would make them unsuitable for serious study.
Without a good background in music theory it is very easy to transcribe a piece in a way that may result in the same sounds when played but that is musically nonsense due to the enharmonic nature of many notes. Every flat could have been a sharp just the same, knowing which one to pick requires a lot more knowledge than just what key the piece is in.
I spent many days working out a compromise that at least isn't nonsense most of the time but I know that it will still take much more work to be able to do this reliably. For now my theoretical knowledge isn't good enough though. This is very complex, and the algorithm to do this properly already runs to many pages.
If any of you is fluent in Spanish and want to learn to play piano, I can't recommend Jaime altozano enough (he's on YouTube). He's the best music teacher and communicator I've seen in any language, I would compare him to what threeblueonebrown is for math.
He also has some paid courses available in https://www.musihacks.com/ but just the free content is already awesome to understand modes, scales, pregressions, etc
Interesting the course looks good. Long time ago I saw the "Learn & Master" piano courses courses which are really good. As a hobbyist guitar player, learning piano is one of those things that I want to do once I retire and have time.
IIRC Grant formerly made videos for Khan Academy, and thus uses the same virtual-blackboard as Sal. However, Grant animates with a Python lib whereas Sal draws by hand.
On one hand I agree- the big picture stuff is better with 2blue1brown. On the other hand, as far as doing the actual exercises that make me better at solving problems, Kahn felt a lot better.
I personally value being able to solve random problems better, as it makes me feel like I know the material better when I can apply it, but I think rational folks could disagree.
I just started learning piano in the COVID lockdown. The best and cheapest way to learn is use an app: Simply Piano(android+ios), Piano Marvel(ios), etc and connect it to an el cheapo midi keyboard.
this allows you to spend the next 6 months learning without anyone getting disturbed..while the app gives you realtime feedback about which keys you are pressing.
you wont miss the lack of a teacher...especially during the lockdown.
dont buy an expensive piano. Dont buy books and methods. Learning this way is like playing a game...and arguably much better than Cyberpunk 2077 ;)
Sorry but I have to disagree a lot. An app is not the best way to learn piano. Piano is not just about pressing keys. Does the app correct your position (important if you don't want to get fatigue and cramps), your volume, fingerings, etc? Does it tell you how to practice the parts where you're struggling?
> connect it to an el cheapo midi keyboard
Please don't do that. I mean, if you just want to give it a try to piano and not spend anything, yeah, go ahead, but a small keyboard with non-weighted keys will limit you a lot, even early on. The sound is terrible, you won't be able to control the volume properly, and getting a better technique to play better and faster will be far more difficult. Not to mention that at some point you will try to use the extra keys and if they're are not there you can't do anything. If you want to seriously take up piano, just buy a decent keyboard at the start, you'll end up needing it anyways.
Edit: Don't get me wrong, anything that gets more people into playing music is good. But I think it's also good if people know the advantages and limitations of the method they use to learn, and are able to choose the method that fits their expectations. If you just want to poke your nose into piano playing maybe an app is enough for you, but there are no shortcuts and no magic method.
This advice is debatable anymore. If your goal is to really go deep on acoustic, traditional piano then sure. But if you just want to make music in a modern way (on the computer), or even just want to try it out for a year or two before deciding this is a lifetime hobby to invest thousands of dollars and hours into, then cheap midi keyboard plus app is more than fine. Especially if the app makes it fun for you.
If you're already thinking about trying it for a year or two, you're serious enough that a teacher will be far more helpful than an app, and a cheap, small, non-weighted midi keyboard will limit you a lot.
> But if you just want to make music in a modern way (on the computer)
Acoustic or digital, music is more than a series of button presses. All the things I mentioned apply even if the only thing you want to do is play 4-chord pop songs.
Are there any small keyboards that are good for playing? I'm afraid that taking out a 74-key device will be enough of a nuisance every time that it would discourage me from keeping on learning. How about a 40-key keyboard that's fine for fingers?
Pianos consume some amount of space. That's just a matter of fact with the instrument. A good digital piano in the $600-800 range with proper weighted keys will probably use the same amount of space as a dresser along some wall.
If you seriously want to learn and play piano, even as a hobby, that is the entry level.
I also disagree with using any of the popular apps as anything more than supplemental tools, but there are some very good adult lesson books can definitely form the backbone of your learning. As long as you're aware that posture and technique is a struggle for self-taught pianists, you can look for videos and make some conscious effort to improve at it.
Buying an $80 smaller midi keyboard is a good way to get a cursory feel for things without spending the full amount.
A 49-key will cover 90+% of what you’d want to do in the first year or two of traditional training. A 25-key will get annoying sooner, but if you know space is going to be a real issue, it’s just a percentage question again. You could just decide your skill will be “25-key keyboard” and adapt the training material. But I’d personally consider 49 the realistic minimum to not regularly feel claustrophobic.
Casio makes some tremendous keyboards these days. The Privia line is across the board excellent and can be found used for $250 or less.
Adding my vote for never ever touching an “el cheapo” instrument. A junk keyboard and guitar made me think I disliked those instruments as a younger person, and it makes me sad when I see kids struggling with instruments that I can’t make sound good with years of experience.
Seconded, Yamaha, Kawai and Roland all make gear in that price range that is nothing short of incredible in terms of quality and sound. Besides the fact that they don't need tuning like an acoustic would and which tends to add up over time.
If you've got the space, you'll find that you can get a real upright for free in most cities in the world. Sure, it won't be the best instrument ever, but if you ask around you'll find someone chucking one out.
Yes. We were told that we should move our piano away from the outside wall next to a window because the temperature and moisture fluctuations were causing it to go out of tune.
We're in an old house and there isn't a piano-sized space in our living room that doesn't have a window, door, or HVAC intake/vent.
That's a very important point, tunings will rapidly exceed the value of any 'cheap' piano. And typically the cheaper they are the worse they will keep tune, though there are exceptions to that rule.
I can recommend Entropy Tuner, which is a great piece of software to help you tune a piano properly.
The problem is that if you decide to continue you've already spent a year learning bad habits that could have been easily corrected if you had a teacher with you.
I upvoted you even though I disagree, for a few reasons.
First, a lesson where I get Covid is a really expensive lesson. A lesson where I give Covid to a teacher is a really expensive lesson for them, and I don't want to be responsible for potentially killing someone for lessons.
Second, there is a wide range in the quality of teachers today. While it is true that feedback will accelerate learning, I've been able to learn a fair amount from teachers on the web, taking their knowledge and adapting it as I need.
Am I progressing as fast as I would if I had a teacher? Of course not. Will I get a teacher eventually, after Covid? I'd like to. But it's a luxury at this point and the ability to learn is better than procrastination.
Let's not kid ourselves, the chances of any normal person learning by themselves without a teacher to any kind of mastery is zero. Most won't have to the drive to continue even after two weeks. "Starting" doesn't mean anything, anyone can "start". It's trivial to start.
Really? I find myself surrounded by self taught programmers, musicians, and visual artists all the time.
Yes. Nobody I know will play in the London philharmonic. But we figured out enough to play a cover band in highschool, and I'm figuring out enough to learn passable music production. On that note, from what I've learned from their interviews, many of the biggest producers have never taken a music lesson.
This isn't me arguing against lessons writ large, simply pushing back on the notion that they, and other barriers to entry, are not barriers at all. There are other paths.
Learning music theory is different from correctly playing an instrument. If your goal is to produce then your method is probably good for dipping your toes in the water if you have literally no music experience whatsoever. Most digital production doesn't require you to play complicated passages for a long period of time, so you'd succeed in realizing your goals on that front.
But if your goal is to perform; sure, you'll be able to play simple compositions, but anything complex will pose a challenge without a teacher (or even good material that makes you aware of what to look out for). I think that's what your critics are trying to point out.
The real problem here is you're equating learning music theory with 'learning the piano'.
The point is the lessons as a standardised tool work quite well in producing results.
The variation in results is much higher if you go off the well beaten path.
Secondly, if you think learning piano is comparable to programming or art then you are completely mistaken.
Edit- added here since HN doesn’t let you comment anymore if you get downvoted too much.
With programming, the feedback is immediate and accurate. You know if your code does compile. You know if your logic is bugged or if your algorithm is too inefficient. If the code you write doesn’t work, somebody can give you their code to bring you up to speed. This allows you to immediately address your issues.
With piano, (at least in the beginning) you are not qualified to judge if your hand position is right, if your posture won’t give your RSI in the long run, if you are even playing the right notes, if your rhythm is off, if you are reading the sheet music wrong, if your pedal is timing subtly off or if your legato is correct. You can practice for hours on playing the wrong thing. A teacher can help you get this stuff to get fixed. Secondly, unless you started ear training as a child you won’t ever be able to develop absolute pitch. Your ability to discern pitch and listen to the very music you are playing is already at a disadvantage. You’re basically blind and deaf and you have no idea what progress should look like apart from superficial judgments.
I'll chime in with some perspective of my own as someone who has had some formal training in both(private lessons and CS classes).
Music, in and of itself, is pretty simple and natural to create: clap your hands, stomp your feet, sing a little. There's a low "skill floor" on it.
Programming has a much bigger skill floor - syntax, memory management, indirection, and other conceptual forms of knowledge. But once you have the concept, it doesn't matter a great deal what exact things you type if it's implementing that concept successfully.
But music has tradition, and not just one - it's one per instrument, with subsets for different playing styles. When you get classical training(which I did) there's a lot of pedigree built-in to being a "student of so-and-so". You learn technical competence - how to not injure yourself by playing(RSI is a big one but it also occurs with posture, breath control and so forth) - but also to express the music interpretively, a translator who turns notes on the page into a dynamic performance, and this involves both repetition and attention to detail that is suited for coaching. Music can be very athletic at the world-class level!
Over time I've been able to cross over the two worlds - finding ways of programming that are a little more iterative, more like performance - and approaching music from a more theory-and-concepts perspective has helped me understand compositions beyond the surface expression. But the broad differences still remain.
Im not flaming you, but I would genuinely recommend you check out videos of people learning to play using Flowkey, SimplyPiano, etc. People get to a decent state.
And take everything that has been written (barrier to entry, etc) and add COVID isolation into the mix.
We are still in this mess for another 9 months about.
Im not arguing about teacher vs app in the most generic sense...but one can spend 30 mins a day with an app on wireless earphones and get to a pretty decent State for playing is worth it.
His father Johann Ambrosius Bach; his older brother Johann Christoph Bach; his uncle Johann Christoph Bach (yes, same name); Georg Böhm is likely but there's no direct evidence; he studied at the Michaelisschule for several years; and was a court musician of Johann Ernst where he likely received further training.
And I have to disagree a lot with you. I had a piano teacher when I was young and that person put me off piano for the next 45 years or so. A good teacher will help you, a not so good teacher may well cause you to lose interest.
Right now I'm practicing on my own, when I want, without a set schedule and without the goal of getting good enough to satisfy my - nonexistent - teacher.
Likely a good teacher would help. But good teachers cost money, have their own schedules to keep and their goals may not overlap with mine. So this time around I'm taking it as slow or as fast as I want, when I want, learning pieces that are probably way above my level but that keep me motivated because I like to play them.
If at some point I feel that I hit a plateau then I might go for a teacher for a while with the express goal of getting unstuck.
Finally, not everybody learns in the same way and not everybody has your budget. I love learning by doing, not by being told how to do it and there is as sense of pride in learning a skill by yourself instead of having it handed down, it also allows you to develop your own style rather than to become a carbon copy of what your teacher considers to be 'proper'. There is room for all of this and yours as well but I don't like the way you are all over this thread proclaiming the 'one true way', there are as many ways as there are people and what works for one person could easily be someone else's nightmare. It would be nice if you at least acknowledged that you have not taken into account the goal of whoever you have in mind as your hypothetical piano student and that not everybody will fit that image.
We agree that there are not shortcuts and that there is no magic method, but I think everybody that is somewhat serious about any instrument would agree on that.
Bad teachers are an issue, of course. But bad apps can be an issue too. No matter the method there's always the risk of not implementing it correctly.
> their goals may not overlap with mine.
That's a matter of talking with the teacher and setting down the goals.
> Finally, not everybody learns in the same way and not everybody has your budget.
My point is not "I did classes and I'm good now", is "I didn't do enough classes and now I see how that wasn't the best".
> I don't like the way you are all over this thread proclaiming the 'one true way'
If that's the way I'm coming across I'm sorry. My point is that there's more to music learning that people think (specially in HN, where I've seen really bad takes in some posts), and that they should be mindful that an app will not be a magic method. I've seen friends that had very high expectations and then got discouraged quickly. I prefer that people know what's ahead, and align the method to use with the expectations they have.
I think most people are more than mature enough to make their own decisions about what works for them and what doesn't. Good teachers are worth their weight in gold, but also, they cost money and if you are not doing this with a set goal of achieving a certain level but just enjoying yourself then that can be all the motivation that you need to keep going.
I'd advocate for the occasional review by a teacher to see whether you are picking up any bad habits but to most importantly focus on having fun so that you stay motivated. Nothing will kill interest in an instrument in the early stages of learning as much as drilling boring stuff, even if that has long term advantages, after all if there is no long term because of that then what's the point?
Of course, and to make decisions you need information, that's what I'm trying to do.
Also, you can have a teacher where the focus is to have fun with it and not drilling boring stuff. That's precisely the conversation I had with my current clarinet teacher. We still do boring stuff but he also brings me jazz songs and classical duets to play according to my level. It's a matter of establishing your goals with the teacher the same way you put them with yourself.
- Teachers can not give you motivation but they can sure kill it.
- An app that keeps people motivated is better than nothing at all.
- Horses for courses (not everybody is the same, and equally affluent, what works for you may not work for someone else) and if people are on a budget and they find a way that can make them enjoy what they are doing without breaking the bank on teachers and piano tuners then that's a benefit.
- With what is available online + a $400 digital piano you can get surprisingly far if you are self motivated, and occasionally spending an hour or two with a teacher (or simply a better pianist) will stretch your abilities further.
- if you feel that you are not comfortable or maybe even are injuring yourself then stop whatever you are doing and ask an expert.
- If you have a goal and/or want to be able to perform and value your time over your cash then a good teacher is the way to go but beware, not all teachers are good.
- if you can afford it, want it and you can find a good teacher definitely go for that.
- An acoustic piano is not a 'must' to be able to learn and practice, in fact, a digital has some advantages (the ability to practice with headphones). Silent pianos exist but are usually quite pricey.
Finally, I'd like to plug http://forum.pianoworld.com/ which is an excellent resource for people interested in playing and teaching piano.
Yeah, I fully agree with that. Only thing is that I do think that a teacher can give you motivation by pointing you towards a next step that is both achievable and interesting for you.
> I think most people are more than mature enough to make their own decisions about what works for them and what doesn't.
Nice point.
As a teenager, I took piano lessons for several years from two good teachers. Nearly fifty years later, I still enjoy playing the piano every day, so lessons obviously worked for me.
But if I were starting out to learn to play the piano now, I probably wouldn't go the teacher route at first. Rather, I would sample various apps, method books, websites, and, especially, YouTube videos and see what I could learn from each of them. I expect some would be too hard, some too easy, and some focused on styles of music I'm not interested in. But in the process of sampling various approaches, I would be able to find out what benefits and motivates me and what doesn't. I suspect that I would end up at least as satisfied with the results as I am now.
I was exactly in the same situation. And I would say ..if it wasn't for COVID, I wouldn't have landed on this.
learning using an app is low pressure, very pleasant, very game-y. Im at the point, where the game has gotten me interested enough that I wandered on the internet towards "Taubman method for eliminating RSI", etc.
I strongly recommend it for kids even. Im pretty sure this will get me flamed by people who play piano already, but I'm willing to bet money that for non-musical parents, they would be pleasantly surprised that their kids are doing something other than playing videogames...and kinda learning something awesome while stuck at home.
The 'hacker way' to me was to use my programming skills to write some software that helps me to achieve my goals. The project is steadily picking up steam and now has a small but quite dedicated following. It has helped me to build up a repertoire of pieces that I can play well enough to execute them fault less which leaves me free to concentrate on how I want to play them, good enough that the people I live with will ask me to play a certain piece because they enjoy it.
The next step is to outfit my ancient Yamaha G3 (1966), that I bought relatively cheaply with a sensor bar so the software can be used on the acoustic piano as well rather than just on the digital one. I love the sound of the acoustic.
The software will be further expanded over the next year, we have a very long list of things we want to add and make it do, hopefully without cluttering the user interface by making most of it completely automatic. Some of these features will be groundbreaking, the current iteration is more of a testbed than anything else. If you want to mess around with it or hack on it feel free: https://pianojacq.com/ the code is on gitlab as well.
This is why I'm so happy with the Mayron Cole material, I will try to transcribe all of it to midi files so it can be used with the software. It turns a 'neat little toy' into a complete computer assisted piano course.
For the moment though your best bet is to simply download a bunch of midi files and pick some that you would like to learn.
I think it's like using an app for language learning. If you think 10 minutes of Duolingo every day is going to make you fluent in Chinese you're deluding yourself, but it doesn't mean that it can't be a good entry point and a good way to build discipline and gauge your progress.
I've been learning the saxophone for a few months (ask my neighbours) and have used a bunch of different methods. I find that even bad practice is good practice, so to speak. It's just important to keep a feedback loop: listen to yourself, compare yourself to good players and look for the differences. And don't just use an app, vary your training using multiple sources and methods to find what works best for you, as well and filling the gaps.
For the saxophone I found that a good way to spot bad habits force yourself to "do things right" is to force yourself to play in a different key every day. This forces you to deconstruct what you're playing, as well as making sure that you can play on the entire range of your instrument.
Sure, it's better to start with good personalized private courses with a good teacher and excellent hardware but many people wouldn't even start if that was the barrier of entry. I know that I definitely wouldn't have.
Having to unlearn bad habits a few years down the line is annoying, but it's not the end of the world.
Bad habits are often linked to repetitive injuries in the long run. This is something that you don't really notice several months in, but will bite you when you start to play a lot.
If you really want to self-teach, I would suggest at least take some classes in the beginning to properly form your posture.
I feel like it's overstated. Take people's postures in front of a computer: it's often terrible. Bad posture, bad keyboard usage, non ergonomic hardware etc... Yet we survive. Sure, it can create problems after years of constant abuse (RSI etc...) but generally that's true for people who spend multiple hours every day doing it wrong.
If you learn to play piano 30 minutes every day for a year you'd really have to be doing it critically wrong to manage to maim yourself.
Of course if you manage to stick with it long term and really commit a lot of time practicing, you better learn good posture sooner or later, but I don't think it's worth front-loading all stuff. It just raises the barrier for entry without huge benefits IMO.
>This is something that you don't really notice several months in, but will bite you when you start to play a lot.
Sure, I completely agree, but unlearning bad habits, while annoying, is part of getting good at anything I think. You need to pick your battles when you're starting, there's so much to learn.
For me the equivalent would be teaching a programming course, but insist that everybody must be touchtyping in Dvorak on ergonomic keyboards when they're coding. While it's not necessarily bad advice in the long run all it'll achieve is make your students think that programming is a lot harder than it really is.
> Bad posture, bad keyboard usage, non ergonomic hardware etc... Yet we survive. Sure, it can create problems after years of constant abuse (RSI etc...)
Surely we’ve survived worse things. But that’s not the point.
The point is weighing the cost of a few months of lessons, and the risk of injuries.
Usually beginners don’t have to find the most expensive teacher; a undergraduate would suffice.
Why risk bad habits when there is an affordable alternative?
Going to shamelessly use this thread to pulse check something I am working on.
I too have been learning piano over the last five months or so, but I found a private teacher through a local music school. Very glad I made that decision, we work well together and it’s amazing having someone for 1hr a week to keep you on track, motivated, correcting you in real time.
Apps cannot do that, but there IS room for technology to assist remote learning. Neither of us has an amazing camera setup that can capture a full 88 key piano, which is tricky for performances that span many octaves... so you know pretty much any song :P We both have MIDI out though, which got me to thinking you could pretty easily stream that MIDI data through a p2p connection to render keys on a remote end in near real time.
I have been working on a prototype on and off for a few months on a prototype and testing it with my teacher. It’s been useful for picking up the slack of not having complex camera rigging, and the cost of entry is buying a midi-to-usb cable.
Anyway I’ve been ramping up to get it ready for letting other people try it out and wanted to hop into this very relevant thread and drop the pitch to see if there is interest in the idea!
I was working on a music system for my brother, who is a music teacher, to allow for better music teaching than Zoom. I just don't have the bandwidth. But I do have some code for video interface with Jitsi and MIDI. I'd be more than happy to pass along with I got and some idea on how to get the music to synch.
If you get real-time reliable detection of notes and chords working in the browser then please let me now. Meanwhile, I'll plug https://pianojacq.com/ which I wrote to help practice (digital or silent) piano.
> If you get real-time reliable detection of notes and chords working in the browser then please let me know
Will do! That is of course the focal point of any code I write for this, and it’s very tricky. To perhaps give you a little more confidence that I might figure this out, I know it’s not as simple as forwarding midi data through WebRTC and playing it on receipt on the other end ;)
This gist of how I do it now is conceding to the fact that network latency exists and having a sort of buffer that allows midi note data to arrive out of order but be played back at the original timings (just delayed)
I would like to get in one that. I have gotten to the point in my lonely piano journey that I understand that one must start practicing Hanon and Czerny.
Yet there's no guided app for that.
I’m no teacher so I can’t tell you confidently what’s write or wrong. I definitely don’t practice those, they’re honestly kinda boring to me. My musical goal is more about getting a decent understanding of practical playing and theory through a book that does a bit of both (the older beginner is what it’s called) as well as finding our own songs to work through and use to learn about theory. The teacher who swears by tedious exercise like Hanon would probably disagree, but I really like it, and I feel like it’s still very productive!
I have used SimplyPiano for about 1 year now and I'm really happy with it. I did learn of lot of piano theory and I can easily read sheet music and learn/play simple songs (left hand chords + right hand melody) in a few minutes.
> Does the app correct your position (important if you don't want to get fatigue and cramps), your volume, fingerings, etc?
Yes, the app does constantly reminding you to have the correct position, shows fingering but does indeed not test for volume. It's obviously not as good as having a teacher constantly watching you.
I have also recently started some lessons with a piano teacher for more in-depth music theory and checking my current progress, she didn't have too much stuff to correct, so the app wasn't that bad and the stuff that I learnt was actually correct and usable. One thing that the teacher was a lot better at than the app was explaining how more complex musical concepts are linked together and how focusing more on the basics is more important that learning specific things/progressions.
> connect it to an el cheapo midi keyboard
I use the Yamaha NP 12 (it costs around $200), it sounds amazing but it does have only 61 keys and it's semi-weighted. I still think it's good enough for learning how to play.
One thing that you might be missing is the fact that most of the people wanting to learn the piano don't plan on becoming a professional, they just want to be able to learn and play a few songs or improvise a bit. In order to do this usually "good enough" is good enough, you don't need the best equipment or the perfect technique. It's also important, as you mentioned, to know what to expect and what you are missing out on by using the learning methods you do.
> Yes, the app does constantly reminding you to have the correct position,
That's not what I meant by position, I meant hand position, finger curving, etc. If you did it well at the start that's nice, some people don't (in fact there's a guy in this same thread saying that he has finger cramps when playing).
> so the app wasn't that bad and the stuff that I learnt was actually correct and usable.
That's great! I'm not saying it's useless, only that has limitations, the same thing that you noticed when you started with a teacher.
> I still think it's good enough for learning how to play.
As long as it's weighted it's decent, and 61 keys for starters is not too bad either. When the parent said 'cheapo midi keyboard' I was thinking of one of these small cheap keyboards that almost looks like a toy.
> One thing that you might be missing is the fact that most of the people wanting to learn the piano don't plan on becoming a professional, they just want to be able to learn and play a few songs or improvise a bit. In order to do this usually "good enough" is good enough
I know that. I'm talking precisely to that people, because I'm one of those people. I'm doing that with the clarinet right now in fact. If you really want to play a few songs by yourself and improvise a bit, you're taking it seriously enough to the point I do think it's worth it to go to a teacher.
So I'm just giving you perspective after about 9 weeks of SimplyPiano.
Im very far away from being able to control the nuances of volume. Im still at the point, where I'm learning to use my left and right hands independently and play without looking.
And that's what SimplyPiano gets you to - it's a structured program+game that teaches you to read music and gain hand independence using an app.
Im pretty self aware that I will need a teacher at some point. I have been a gamer and had formal teaching in music when I was kid.
I find it hard to believe that a teacher would be able to correct me in real time, while simultaneously having me enjoy the process. Once I start playing half decently, the memory of music is motivation enough.
Out of curiosity, how does the app make you enjoy the process? I took a quick look and it seems to have the same basic progression that most classes have, I assume the paid courses are different and better but I can't see them.
My 6 year old son played with SimplyPiano for several months this year, and I tried it out a bit as well. For me, SimplyPiano brings the excitement of being able to play popular music that you recognize and enjoy in a matter of weeks. The app has easy arrangements of everything from Adele to Beethoven that it takes you through as it 'teaches' you. There is also a gamification aspect that gives you more stars for hitting the right notes at the right time.
When I had piano lessons as a child, playing classical music for years became boring and uninteresting to me. I believe apps with a wide range of music help keep interest levels up. The app seems like a great way to dip your toes into playing piano without committing to finding a teacher.
So it doesn't "teach" you. Like I didn't even know it was teaching me to "read music".
For me, it was just "hitting a few symbols". Suddenly in 2 weeks, I was reading music. It uses exactly the same tactics as any videogame lets you figure out game mechanics.
Suddenly, you're playing another state of the game...and oh hey it's THAT song.
This is hard to conceptualize for someone who can already play. But you have to understand that in October, I had no clue I would be reading music in December.
This is the same drivel people who consider themselves "purists" in the watercolour scene spew whenever a new person expresses interest in painting. "You MUST spend $10 a tube minimum to REALLY be painting." "If you don't use 400lb cold press linen paper, you're really wasting paint." Blah.
As someone who started out painting with a $10 set of Daler-Rowney on a $4 block of paper from Walmart, I can say wholeheartedly, one can experiment at the cheap end and then be pleasantly surprised at the top end while learning and enjoying themselves. $200 worth of colours you never use because you don't enjoy painting that much is a waste of money. $20 worth of paint you fill every notebook and sketchpad up with doodles is worth every penny. As you progress (and decide if the hobby is even worth doing), you pick up some of those $10 a tube paints and realize the purists weren't wrong, they DO paint better, but they won't make you a better painter.
Personally I have a $99 AKAI MPC-Mini with only one octave worth of keys and have only dabbled a bit with it connected to my PC, but its infinitely better than Smule on the iPad and eventually with an app or through lessons on Youtube, one could absolutely learn the skills needed to play a composition an actual piano--all as the GP said, from the comfort of your own home, at your own pace.
I must agree. op comment is the worst advice i have seen on HN on any subject, it reads like an impatient child wishing to avoid to study just to be able to perform.
But then again, it comes down to what you want to achieve. If you just want to mind numbingly press buttons, knock yourself out.
I liked the advice because I always wanted to learn piano but every time I approached stage 1, people were saying similar things. "Oh, just to get STARTED, you're going to need an 88 key weighted keyboard, that'll cost you 600$ and take up an entire wall of your studio. Ok now spend 100$ on books, and now you have everything you need to spend 200$ a month and an hour every week on a teacher. And you better practice five hours a week, or don't even bother, don't you dare soil our beautiful instrument!"
It's gatekeeping. I don't want to be excellent piano, or even all that good. I want to be able to occasionally play a song not very well, and play some chords in a way that pleases me. Mostly, I want to plug chords on a whim into my DAW, where I have control to a level I, as a non savant, will never be able to play to.
The OP advice was perfect for someone like me who has learned piano just fine that way.
If that's what you want to do, that's nice and go ahead, maybe the app is the cheapest way to get to that point. My point is that people who use them should be aware of their limitations, and compare that with what they want to achieve.
PS: the weighted keyboard thing is actually important. You can get cheap weighted keyboards for less than 200$, maybe even less in second-hand market. A non-weighted keyboard will limit your playing a lot, even early on.
I taught myself how to flatpick on guitar. Three years later, I found out that I held the plectrum incorrectly. Though I've learned the proper way (and will switch to it in order to tremolo a la Dick Dale), twenty-five years later I still can't shake it.
I started playing around the same time as you, and also hold the pick "incorrectly", using both the index + middle finger. It's only been in the last year or so that I've made any sort of effort to use just the index finger. It feels unstable, but faster in a way, and also easier to hybrid pick thanks to the middle finger being free.
Very much agree to the view, in fact I think the gatekeeping has become stronger in recent years, in the past, playing piano was considered a more utilitarian skill, since it was more of a means to hear music in ones own house, before recorded music became popular. It was essentially a music reproduction device, like a record player/tape recorder.
How is it gatekeeping? Nobody is actually capable of stopping you from doing what you want to do. They simply don't agree with you.
Many teachers can teach once a month. Many music are free on IMSLP, musescore, etc. There are cheaper ways to get started than what you have been apparently told.
My main objection to using an app are 1) it doesn't correct your posture which might lead to injuries in the long run (though not a concern if you don't play frequently) 2) it usually takes a lot longer to reach the level you have in mind. Learning from a teacher actually saves time.
But, if you just want an interface to DAW, I think an app is fine, since there is no need for phrasing, or timing, etc. You'll probably be fine even without the app.
Gatekeeping????? That's the most absurd use of that word I've ever seen. It's a hobby. Hobbies cost money. People don't have the god-given right to play piano, just like they don't have the god-given right to fly a plane. Pianos cost money. Pianists need money to make a living. It's not gatekeeping, it's just the plain economics of a highly complex musical instrument.
I'm not a classicist in fact. If you're Thelonius Monk go ahead and play, but in this same thread we have some people complaining of finger fatigue and cramps. That's something that a teacher can correct easily.
No, because the piano is not an ergonomic instrument. No matter what, you're going to experience finger fatigue and cramps. And that's even assuming you have a hand size that fits the one, standardized keyboard size.
I understand why you're frustrated to hear someone I suppose cheapen something you're really passionate about, but what is more valuable to you: less people learning piano because the barrier to entry is thousands of dollars of equipment, lessons, and books, not to mention time and space, but when they play they have good velocity management, or, tons more people enjoying the instrument, but not really playing it as well?
I want more people to enjoy music, which means being honest with what comes with each method. Piano apps will be easy and cheap, but they have their limitations. Marketing and comments like the parent make it seem like you can just substitute a teacher and practice by using these apps. I also imagine that people can get frustrated if they see that after tons of practice they still don't sound how they like and they don't have a lot of tools to improve by themselves, because you don't get those tools from apps.
And you're not really understanding me. I don't feel like these apps cheapen my effort. I just wish I knew the things I talk about in my comment earlier so that I could have taken the piano classes I had more seriously and I wouldn't have to suffer now the lack of technique, exercise and repertoire I have now.
You're emphasizing boosterism over honesty. If "we" "want" something to be more popular, we should encourage shallow engagement with it, not correct poeples' bad habits, and just shout, "yay! More people in my thing!"
Bullshit boosterism chases me off, and I know it chases others off, too. It tells me you have an agenda that treats me instrumentally, which is an excellent way to make me just ignore you.
So if someone wants to play table-tennis I should constantly remind them of the how they should get a $100 custom bat before they can do anything, use the correct technique by using their body and legs and sweating a lot instead of just letting them have fun? I am always happy when someone joins the club, even if they are good or not, it's their decision how much time, money and effort they want to invest in correcting their technique and improving their skill.
I agree, although my point was that some people just want to have fun doing something, their goal isn't necessarily to get really good at it or to do it correctly. Many prefer doing things their own way rather than the right way, so they might not like being constantly told what they should do.
People who are learning an instrument are arguably at their most creative in fact because they don't know the right way to use the instrument. As they become more proficient it seems they "fall in line" and naïveté and serendipity go by the wayside.
This is so true, as soon as I started learning more music theory I felt that my creativity went down as I started recognizing chords/progressions and I feel slowly getting stuck trying to play by the rules.
No shit. I said, 'most people are not so bad at figuring this out'.
You're conflating an approach to niche skill development with jerks who don't know how to behave in public. They're not the same thing, and again, most normal people seem more than capable of figuring this out.
The former. We don't need more boosters of things done casually, for fun and a short time; we have knitting, duolingo and sourdough bread for that. I want to promote and help people pursue big things that take time and tremendous effort but have huge pay-off. I focus on a handful of people over my life and others can work at the top of the funnel.
The thing with doing one thing and well is that you are missing on all the other cool things in life. What if you chose the wrong thing? Why is being in the top 99th percentile so much better than being in the 90th percentile? Is it worth the extra 10 years spent working on that if you are still not in the 99.99th percentile? I don't think you should focus on the pay-off or the "OMG, I got so good at this!" part, you should just enjoy the journey and learning process. If you are ok with learning very slowly but always progressing it might be better than spending a tremendous effort in a short time just to quickly reach your ceiling and than hate the thing that you do.
To many beginners starting out, the term "learn piano" can be used in a generic way and could mean anything from becoming a classical concert pianist, a Rick Wakeman-esque rock keyboardist, a Daft Punk-like synthesist, a digital composer creating symphonic cinema scores out of virtual software plug-in orchestras - or they may want to target the flexibility to "do it all." I'm a largely self-taught, hobbyist digital producer who loves my 61-key MIDI-only, synth action Fatar key beds but we started our elementary-aged kid with a Julliard-trained classical piano teacher and bought a $600 88-key, fully weighted Casio MIDI keyboard for home practice. The Casio sound engine doesn't sound as good as the virtual Bosendorfer in my laptop but it's more than good enough and our kid has benefited greatly from having traditional instruction (for form, posture, bad-habit prevention, etc) but also enjoys practicing teacher-approved pieces with a tablet-based, gamified MIDI app that reports practice frequency, accuracy, speed, timing variance, etc stats back to the teacher to inform progress as well as areas for improvement.
Your advice would be generally applicable to a beginner with goals similar to my kid but off target for a beginner with goals like mine.
>> connect it to an el cheapo midi keyboard
I agree that just saying "cheap midi keyboard" needs a warning that there are some really poor quality keybeds on the lower-end. The issue is not just the "weighting" of the keys not matching a mechanical piano but also wobble side to side, inconsistent trigger depth, no velocity sensitivity. These issues can substantially impact basic playability and expressiveness to the extent that much of the practice may not fully translate to decent (ie more "standard") key beds.
> non-weighted keys will limit you a lot
This depends on whether the learner wants to be able to play a traditional mechanical piano which is what "weighted" key beds emulate. Weighted key beds respond very differently compared to what's called "synth action" key beds. Real piano keys require substantially more finger pressure to actuate, go down slower, and come back up slower. The trigger curve is also different than synth action. Personally, I actually prefer a high-quality synth action key bed. I have over a dozen different high-quality synth action key beds on various MIDI-only keyboards as well as synthesizers I've acquired over two decades of playing. While I'm very particular about the feel of the key beds I use, my goal has never been to be a "piano player" but rather a "keyboardist". I feel this is more a matter of personal preference and goals than objective right or wrong. My advice to beginners is to be aware of the differences and make an informed choice by first visiting a music store like Guitar Center and trying out several key beds of different types and quality levels. Regardless of their goals I generally advise beginners to stay away from any MIDI-only controller keyboards which are less than $200 new MSRP or any MIDI+sound source keyboards which are less than $400 new MSRP as those likely have meaningful compromises in basic quality or features to reach that price point. If someone's not experienced, it's also generally a good idea to lean toward better-known brands like Yamaha, Korg, Roland, etc and read pro reviewer's assessments.
> The sound is terrible
Many people these days don't have the space or funds for a real piano (and even a small one can be heavier than a fridge). If it's not a real piano, then you're triggering a virtual sound source. The quality of any virtual sound source is a more a matter of DSP processing power, sample memory, algorithm quality, etc. There are some very good virtual piano sound engines in relatively inexpensive MIDI keyboards (especially used via Craigslist) as well as in laptop, tablet and even phone-based MIDI software apps. I have a virtually modeled Bosendorfer Grand Piano software plug-in on my Dell XPS 2-in-1 laptop that's pretty indistinguishable from a real one.
My general advice about learning via piano apps is that it can be reasonably effective for practicing some things, for some types of learners but apps are not (IMHO) sufficient to teach all things keyboard to all types of learners.
I think the ideal approach for many people and scenarios would combine an experienced instructor with solo practice, some app-assisted practice and some video-assisted/written study. How much of each and the sequencing will depend largely on the learner and their objectives.
As is usually the case, "conscious practice" tends to be far better than "rote (mindless) practice". When our kid got into the third year of piano, solo practice sessions became more of a struggle, frequently slipping into mindless repetition that was largely ineffective. That's when we introduced some app-assisted practice sessions. The app approach was helpful because it provided consistent, granular, objective feedback on missed notes, timing, etc. Obviously no app can replicate all the dimensions of an experienced human coach but in the right context app-assisted practice can be a useful component of a blended learning strategy.
The teacher we picked for our kid is classically trained and pretty hardcore (both of her own kids are now college-aged very serious concert pianists). She has a masters in music as well as a masters in childhood education. She doesn't generally like the apps but she knows that they can be effective with some younger students to keep them engaged in home practice. The app she uses is called Piano Maestro, which is a more well-known brand. However, there are a quite a few well-regarded apps, and, as you'd expect, a zillion crappy apps. I suspect our chosen instructor's preference is more about the large library of more traditional pieces which Piano Maestro has licensed as well as the PM's business model which has a rev share with teachers.
As a technologist, IMHO MIDI keyboard playing instruction apps aren't a fundamentally "hard problem". I think the quality has a lot to do with UX, instructional approach and the appeal of the available library of practice songs to the learner. I'd suggest creating a "short list" of titles by reading some objective user and pro reviews on musically focused sites instead of random app store ratings. Then I'd watch YT video reviews and/or try demos/trials. The key is finding an app which seems to fit your personal style and needs for UX, content library, instructional gradient, chunking, etc. For example, Angry-Birds-esque gamification really helps my kid stay focused during the repetition necessary to clean-up timing errors while learning a challenging recital piece but that "slot machine" ding-ding-ding approach would drive me nuts. Our kid doesn't want to watch instructional video clips but I've learned a fair bit of practical music theory and digital production tips on YouTube.
> do you think virtual pianos are good enough for smartphones (iOS/android) or do you still need laptops?
"Good enough" is always tricky when it comes to things that are application dependent as well as being subjective preference. Frankly, I have very little experience with phone-based music apps because I'm a pretty serious hobbyist and regardless of the sound-quality, the screen size of phones is a non-starter for my needs. In general, I've heard that support for advanced audio timing features in Android lags iOS though it's apparently slowly improving. GarageBand being one of Steve Job's "hero" demo apps was probably an early forcing function. Obviously, recent phone CPUs from Qualcomm and Apple have enough DSP horsepower to do serious things. The issue is the depth of OS support for more "pro" use cases like routing MIDI and virtual audio channel routing between multiple apps with multiple tracks while maintaining adequate real-time responsiveness in milliseconds.
A couple years back I did spend a couple hundred dollars on serious apps for an iPad Pro (12.9 inch) such as Cubasis, some Korg virtual instruments (>$25 each), etc. The various piano sounds certainly seemed high-quality enough, performant enough and expressive enough for the purposes of learning to play keyboards. A lot of the instruments included in GarageBand are pretty impressive for just playing. Where iOS apps lag desktop software and pro plug-in libraries is in areas like simultaneous multi-tracking and depth of subtle control of individual instrument voicing.
I eventually abandoned doing music on the iPad Pro because the "good" apps aren't exactly cheap, though they do go on crazy (>60% off) sales from time to time. They also tend not to be as fully controllable at the detail-level as desktop apps/plug-ins. That said, there are certainly "iPad-only" music producers creating impressive pro-level work but my compositions can sometimes grow to hundreds of tracks, dozens of CPU cycle-sucking virtual instruments and multiple sample libraries weighed in gigabytes of size. But then again, my DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) software is Cubase Pro ($600) and I use several >$500 virtual instruments because I'm pretty into this (my use of early, primitive software virtual instruments on Windows started in 1996 and has expanded pretty continuously since). The increase in sophistication has been remarkable. However, I do want to note that in recent years I've seen demos of increasingly impressive capabilities on offer on iOS and desktop at sub-$100 per app/instrument prices. But... for my needs, I'm hooked on my PC workstation with multiple widescreen monitors and multiple different types of MIDI controllers (with pedals outboard MIDI faders/knobs, etc). It all depends on your preferences and where you ultimately want to go.
Bottom line, there's never been a better time to get into personal music-making. You can do far more with much less money or innate skill than ever before while the power and capabilities on offer are truly mind-blowing, dirt cheap and sometimes even free.
People can disagree with you all they want about the app. I figured out how to play with both hands at the same time with Simply Piano. To me, that is magical. Also, it's fun.
I am using a M-Audio keyboard, which senses speed and was good to get started, and now I feel proficient enough that I want to buy a digital piano. Looking at Kawai, but can't visit a music store showroom because of COVID lockdown.
Maybe in time I will change my mind, but I think it makes perfect sense to use a basic MIDI keyboard to learn the keys and notes while deciding if it is something enjoyable and worth a substantial financial investment.
Completely agree on the Simply Piano plus MIDI approach. My autistic son is musically inclined, can play piano by ear. We have struggled trying to get him formally trained to read music. Then we found Simply Piano. He's taken to it very well, treating it as a game. This is the only way we have managed to get him to read music. We use it in conjunction with a music teacher via Zoom. Here's a video of him playing https://youtu.be/NEa9X36e7Vo
I tried a few of these apps but I wasn't really learning anything. Eventually, I found pianote.com and I couldn't be more happy - it's worth checking out as another option for online piano learning (they also have drum and guitar programs).
I agree not to buy an expensive piano (or keyboard). While a fully weighted 88-key instrument is definitely ideal, you can get by just fine on a semi, or even el-cheapo, 61-key keyboard.
Does it have like random chords for reading practice? I'd enjoy just getting a single chord or a chord sequence and going through it as quick as possible.
This is fine to get started (it's pretty close to how I got started) but I recommend getting a good teacher and instrument asap, if you're really enjoying yourself. They will help immensely in progression and good habits. After about 5 months with a teacher, I was playing a Chopin piece I wouldn't have dreamed of playing previously.
I love this little sub-thread. I don't know what it is about piano in particular that brings out the nail-biting. You don't seem to get that with guitar for example. What I like is that there's a lot of concern-for-others visible, which is admirable. The place where it strays into misplaced concern though (kind of as usual in life) is where in some cases there's a disproportionate intensity of concern that seems to indicate projection of each writer's own unconscious issues. I will now proceed to probably project my own, but just keep in mind... Why should someone care so much how someone else learns piano or how much piano they learn? And why should the 2nd someone care what the 1st someone thinks in the first place?
Mira, does it sound good, ¿sí o no? That's the only thing you need to ask yourself. If it sounds bad, try harder. (Or don't. Since it's for you and has no meaning except what you bring to it, and since it's near-worthless as a way to pay the bills, you're kind of free to do whatever. Maybe that freedom demotivates some people. That too is fine.)
The argument for a structured approach or formal lessons tends to be that it prevents learning "bad habits." But what's wrong with finding that out for yourself, i.e. finding out that you learned a bad habit by progressing to the point that you notice the habit is bad? And then you either live with it (as many of them will actually be pretty inconsequential) or work to change it.
I can even make a case that unlearning a bad habit is superior in some ways to never developing it. Because first of all, the way you reach "good piano player" status is always by passing through "shitty piano player" status, but secondly, an analogy: The way you mature to the point where you see that, let's say doing drugs (another bad habit for some people) isn't so good for you, is by doing drugs and then quitting, not by "just saying no" from the getgo. What the fuck does a Nancy Reagan type know about drugs? Someone who quits drugs knows all about it. Ah but the additional knowledge takes (or if you think in terms of maximizing piano throughput like some industrial process, it wastes) additional time. If your parents have you convinced that your survival depends on getting early-admitted to Juilliard by age 14, yeah that is gonna hurt you. You can't spare the time to do it "wrong" or even to question whether doing it is bringing you any joy in the first place for that matter. But if you're willing to wait until age 18 for Juilliard, that gives you another 4 years to unlearn the bad habit. Plenty of time. 4 more years of playing piano, which is what you were trying to do in the first place.
Well put. I wonder if a lot of this comes from classical piano players (which there seem to be a lot of, proportionally?) assuming that everyone who learns piano is necessarily aspiring to play those super difficult classical pieces one day. I've started picking up the piano with jazz in mind and it's hard to tell if a lot of the advice out there is spot on and I'm worse off for ignoring it, or if it's really just not relevant to me because I don't intend to play Bach or Mozart. A lot of it _feels_ irrelevant, but I hesitate to dismiss it when it's coming from people who are clearly a lot more experienced than I am.
Apps can be useful but there is simply no replacement for having an experienced person observe your playing and giving you feedback. A good teacher can pick up on problems early and correct them, saving you hundreds of hours. They can also answer certain types of questions very easily that you might never be able to find via google.
I would add earpeggio and music tutor for iOS (not affiliated, there are other similar apps). It's basically a Duolingo-like way to get used to reading sheet music and ear training respectively, you just put in 5 min a day and in a matter of weeks you're able to read sheet music relatively well.
This will teach you to play keyboard but not piano. There is ALOT more to piano than pressing keys at the right time. It's as nuanced an instrument as the violin, but you don't know that unless you've studied professionally or played on a good instrument
That part of is definitely poor advice, although prices are lower these days.
Get something with at least 61 full sized and weighted keys. None of those light weight organ type keys, they need to feel more like piano keys. Polyphonic - able to play at least 8 notes simultaneously.
That would be the bare minimum IMHO. Getting the full 88 keys will probable ensure the rest but maybe not in some cases.
> Get something with at least 61 full sized and weighted keys.
As someone who plays a musical instrument as a hobby, getting an el cheapo toy seems a good first step to me.
You get to see whether you actually enjoy playing and it lets you become familiar with the practice schedule. When you start to feel limited by your tool, you advance to a proper one.
Otherwise you risk buying expensive gear and letting it collect dust 2 months later.
Some low price keyboards are so bad that they might not properly convey the fun of piano because of their limited function and make you think you don't like it. You've gotta make sure that what you buy gives you an accurate picture of what it is like to play a quality instrument because a crappy instrument is not fun.
For example I bought a $200 keyboard once because I thought it would lighten my load as a gigging pianist. Nice and light, 88 keys, built in speaker. Much better than lugging around my thousands of dollars of pro gear. But when I got it, it didn't have weighted keys, ok not fun but I can deal with that, but then it didn't have velocity sensitivity... Every note was just on/off. This was a deal breaker, it is strait up not fun to play a piano like that. I mean it's in the name Piano/Forte the instrument that can play loud and soft.
I forgot to call out velocity sensitive. It's a must but I thought it's almost a given today but its not.
I got a Cassio CPS-85 over 20 years ago. It was $900 bare minimum for me at the time and I still think the weight of the keys is a bit light. Still, that was my minimum and it still is though something like that should be cheaper today.
This for certain. The piano is way more fun to play with weighted keys and much more expressive. I bought my first weighted key piano, a Roland FP-30, this year and have been playing almost every day just for the fun of it.
Polyphony on keyboards is less about physically playing multiple keys at once, but having the sound of multiple keys audible as they decay. Even the cheapest keyboard will let you play many notes at once; those that will actually sound a large number of keys after you've hit them are pricier.
I would recommend a casio S300, should cost about 135$. Has touch sensitivity, and about 400 built in sound bank, ear phone jack, light and easy to carry/store as well.
I'd scrounge craigslist and ebay for a lightly used Yamaha, Kawai or Roland digital piano. $300-400 should get you something that is next to brand new. People do a lot of impulse buying find out that it is hard work and then get rid of them again.
I bought a weighted Yamaha Arius e-piano (YDP-163) about 3 years ago and am very happy with it! (Cost was around 1000$ I think, but there are also cheaper models.)
I had a very cheap children's keyboard with non-weighted keys before. It was totally frustrating to play on that. Weighted keys made a world of a difference!
LOL, never realized that was a slur — I've heard it most of my life and took it to be humorous in a self-deprecating way: as in I'm so dumb this is how I think you can fake speaking Spanish.
Really? I honestly can’t express how truly depressing and miserable your comment is. Self deprecating to use another language incorrectly to “humble” yourself? Seems pretty obviously racist. It’s like saying “Ching Chong China virus” and calling it self-deprecating. Petty fucking gross.
Wish I had the confidence of a white person to never think about my affect on others... or what language can do. Let alone to get paid like one since I get to put up with ignorant shit like this on the daily.
This seems like the form of aggressive linguistic policing that the modern American so-called left engages in constantly.
It strikes me as a wanton desire to get offended as a pretext to deliver a lecture about cultural sensitivity, thereby elevating the lecturer and diminishing the person receiving the lecture. It is immensely tedious and almost everybody is sick of it.
The person you are responding to obviously did not speak with any ill intent. He or she would probably have been more amenable to your viewpoint if you hadn't assumed malice and gone on the attack.
First you accuse him of racism then say something derogatory about white people. Do you not see the contradiction, or are you one of those who subscribe to the ideological position that anti-white racism is impossible by definition?
And if you suggested to the average Spanish person that they are not "white" they'd laugh at you.
A person accused of "unintentional racism" is, in my mind, not guilty. There has to be an intent to disparage behind the comment/remark for the speaker to be racist in act.
Tell someone who said they felt "gypped" that they are disparaging Gypsies and they might have no clue that they were doing so. Are they nonetheless racist?
I give them a pass. But I'm white so maybe I am not sensitive enough to these issues.
> the modern American so-called left engages in constantly
I associate with the "left", am "left", not aware of anyone in my circles engaging in that sort of language policing.
I like this resource because it is anti-workaholic and principled. It also really focuses on developing good habits, which is a huge part of piano. A strategic approach to practice can make it MUCH more efficient.
This sounds like a great resource, am I missing something or are there only two chapters and one is dedicated to piano tuning? Or is this more of a meta resource that tells you where to go to learn something like chord theory etc?
Started learning clarinet in my 30. The internet was full of advice against learning clarinet without a teacher. So I took lessons. It surely helped but it did not feel like a great accelerator. Most gain came from practising almost every day for about three years. After the birth of my daughter I stopped taking lessons because I did no longer have the time to practice and to drive to the teacher's home once a week. I wonder if anyone has experience with online teaching? Commuting to a teacher's place won't fit my schedule anymore. But I wonder whether a teacher can really be helpful via a standard webcam.
I started learning the saxophone at about the same age than you. I agree that daily practice changes everything in terms of progress — one trick (suggested by my teacher) is to always have the instrument out of its box/carrying bag and ready to play. You will tend to pick it up (even randomly during the day) much more.
As for teaching, I found an amazingly kind, patient and talented sax teacher before the pandemic and went to her studio once a week. We’ve since transitioned to online teaching and although there are of course things that you need to adapt to (switching from facetime to skype to another device mid class because it’s echo cancelling the song you’re trying to play over), it’s really great.
Her academic / professionaly trained ear picks up all of the problems I’m not aware of. And her guidance and praise keeps me motivated. She comes up with new exercises knowing what will interest me (I’m learning almost exclusively by ear), suggests great new songs, etc.
I highly recommend reaching out to your teacher and asking if lessons are offered online.
And anyone looking for an amazing sax teacher, contact me. (No affiliation ha. Just lots of praise for this amazing person)
Right now I'm learning clarinet online via Skype due to COVID (clarinet playing doesn't seem to be the safest activity right now). It's honestly better than I expected. Try to get a decent microphone (not very expensive, I got one for around 30-40 euros, Skype does not have sound quality high enough to notice better mics) and headphones.
There are still limitations, teacher can't really test the reeds, and some things can't be heard through Skype, but it's better than nothing. You can also combine it with in-person classes once a month or once every two months so that the teacher can hear you for real and correct things every once in a while.
I wish piano methods would offer me the choice of genre (jazz, latin, classical, ...) and that they would start with songs that are perhaps technically simple, but still interesting from a musical viewpoint.
I play a lot of jazz and blues on the piano, well enough that people pay me to do that. I can't read very well, and if I had to play Bach correctly (or, I'd really struggle even reading student etudes), but when I've played in big bands I've gotten by okay.
It's possible to learn the way I did, which was to first learn guitar and bass, and get an idea of how chord progressions work...
At that point, you can approach the piano like guitar, and play a bass line with your left hand and whatever chords you want on the right, and slowly move into reading and playing melodies from fakebooks.
That isn't, I think, a very hard approach to the instrument, and it gives you a lot of latitude on what you get from it. The first song I played on piano was Grateful Dead's tune Ripple... it's 3 chords and I just alternated the bass notes and sang the melody.
You're not going to find a method book that does that, because there's not a lot of method to it.
Most method books will touch on a wide variety of genres, usually to illustrate specific topics in music theory. If you can’t reason about intervals/scales, key, and chord progressions, “learning” genres like jazz will be like trying to learn differential calculus before linear algebra.
This is the same kind of logic that leads to whiteboard algorithm questions. Music theory and musicianship are not the same thing. There are many many great musicians who only enough to make the sounds they want to make. Sure they might be better if they took the time to learn, but not necessarily.
I’m curious if you are a musician? This description of music theory (whiteboard algorithms) feels really off to me (feel free to look at my sibling comments as to why).
If it’s your experience as a musician I would like to understand why.
Calculus in practice involves a lot of symbol manipulation, so it's important to understand the symbols. Jazz in practice involves a lot of playing an instrument, so it's important to understand…
Fill in the blank. I don't know about you, but I don't fill it in with “music theory”.
... how to use music theory to develop efficient practice routines for your instrument(s), goals, and current abilities.
— jazz musician of 25 years
(this calculus metaphor is pretty far off - music theory in practice, by a working jazz musician, doesn’t involve “manipulation of symbols”, at least not in the same way as one works mathematical problems and proofs. it involves a lot of time on your instrument, applying theory in practical and experiental ways. oftentimes we will write out a lead sheet, or transpose something, and use theory to do that. and so there’s some calculations happening. it becomes second nature with practice).
> Fill in the blank. I don't know about you, but I don't fill it in with “music theory”.
That's because you aren't a jazz musician. Jazz features lots of complex harmonies, and theory is a big part of writing and playing it. Certain subgenres are virtually impossible to perform without a solid theory foundation. You think you can just solo over Giant Steps by feel?
I'm working on something like this right now. Pieces that are accessible but not boring. Getting into jazz early can be tough, like how will you understand an extremely basic 3-6-9 voicing and how it connects to a 7-3-5 voicing in a circle of fifths progression if you haven't studied your basic triads, basic 7th chords and the circle of fifths? And not just reading about them but spending enough time to absorb them into your pianistic vocabulary. Sure you could do it by rote but that's about as fun as memorizing a page of Spanish and reciting it without any comprehension. Any who I don't want to knock your ambition, but rather let you know that from the other side of things I'm thinking of this as well. How do I build the best and quickest ladder of abstraction to jazz for amelius?
> Getting into jazz early can be tough, like how will you understand an extremely basic 3-6-9 voicing and how it connects to a 7-3-5 voicing in a circle of fifths progression if you haven't studied your basic triads, basic 7th chords and the circle of fifths?
Do you really need to? Why can't you just play something that 'sounds jazzy' but is simple enough without understanding any theory behind how it was written? Just for early interest/motivation/joy of having made that sound oneself.
The issue is that reading the notes in standard notation is, at least to me, much more difficult than reading Dm7 and come up with a reasonable inversion of the chord based on where my hands are in relation to the C#dim that I'm current playing.
Absolutely, like I said, I'm working on stuff like this right now. Having said that, perhaps it's a combination of my own personal trauma from originally being taught in a very rote way and thousands of hours of helping students learn to read, but I have an aversion to not knowing what you are doing. I remember looking at stacks of chords 3-6-9 to 7-3-5, or even trying to read a basic root position C7 chord with the RH doing stuff on top and feeling really hopeless to get my LH to fall into those shapes. I've also seen this with many students. Chords are hard if you don't see them as words and try to look at every note every time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
because the GP asked for a method that would teach them based on a genre. If I teach you to play something that sounds jazzy I have not taught you anything about jazz.
I think that depends. The student may have been listening to jazz for their entire grownup life. To them, starting with "Jingle bells", etc. like some piano methods do can be very boring or off-putting.
Yes and no. There is an art to reaching someone with talent who is untrained. It's like their innate sense of music is a reservoir behind a damn and the damn is their facility on the keyboard. There's no shortcut to bringing that damn down no matter how much water is in your reservoir an often times the ones with the most water have so much pressure that it affects their ability to be patient and thoroughly build a channel through the damn. Sometimes my most successful students are the ones without much prior learning because, yah know, tortoise and the hair. But regardless, I'll do my best to connect to any student and help them build that channel.
Agreed - but imposing variety on an intermediate to advanced student can make them better. With a beginner starting lessons, the objective really is to make it fun + learn something.
Can it get you to Marc Rebillet's [0] level in 5 years of a few hours per day practice? He makes it look so effortless and I can't even begin to imagine the flow state he's experiencing.
I feel like there's two different skill-sets at play--the ability to learn a piece, as printed, and play it back accurately, and then this, which is more improvisational skills. The two skill sets intertwine but mastery of one does not necessarily transfer.
To learn the latter quickly, I find it easiest to build a catalogue of music you like listening to, and then figure out how to transcribe it (by ear) on your piano. Maybe just the most overt melody lines at first, before you can grok chords all that well.
In time, you start building your own internalized library of "licks", little musical gestures that are automatic, and to achieve what Marc is doing, is to just string those gestures together. It sounds musically complex but when you're doing it, it almost feels like cheating, because you're leaning so hard on these "tropes" that you've built up over time.
Yeah, I just wish he'd veer off more often to these incredible improv jazz lands (like the one I posted) in his live streams. They might not be as catchy as the short loops he's currently pushing out, but damn, aren't they just delightful!
Long-time self-taught improviser here[0]. 5 years is, I think, a reasonable time frame if you're passionate. My suggestion would be to go through a beginner's course, then as soon as you can start copying and analyzing. Find things like licks and styles and little bits here and there that you like, then try to learn them by ear.
I know the "music is a language" troupe is tired, but it really does help me explain. It's sort of like muscle memory, but with a musical vocabulary.
Look up basic Chord theory, then look around youtube for theory videos on the kind of music you like. After a while, you remove thinking from the equation, and then it gets kinda hard to explain in a comment
TBH it looks pretty good. Covers lots of theory, lots of repertoire graded for ability, and I'm super happy to see it covers rhythm. I think a few people knocked it for typography, I'm not that picky. Perhaps one of the biggest problems with any book is what is the % of people that finish any book much less 9 of them? Realistically this seems better suited as material for a teacher to incorporate into lessons.
I think the one thing that apps and video lessons offer autodidacts that books don't is repetitive guided practice. Going through every scale & chord with you, guiding you though syncopation exercises, walking you through a harmonic analysis, etc...
From my perspective as someone who learned for about 8 or 9 years, there's a lot of theory here. Personally I never learned much theory - as a child, playing piano wasn't something I particularly enjoyed (and it's only now as an adult that I do it occasionally for fun and appreciate the time I put in), but back then learning theory was even lower on the list.
I do think theory is useful for understanding the mechanics of music, and may help accelerate learning any instrument.
My teacher pulled a lot of material from the Royal Conservatory of Music (and I didn't learn theory from them). I haven't heard of this course until today.
Has someone here picked a musical instrument seriously for the first time in their 20s and managed to self learn? If yes, it would be helpful if you could point to resources that were helpful to you and any daily practice schedule you followed?
I have tried learning piano and I found a lot of stuff irritatingly hard to get right and got bored. Like for some reason I am not able to transition to other keys well when I am using both hands or when some finger involuntarily moves because of motion of neighboring finger. Also, I seem to get finger fatigue which is surprising considering the amount of time I spend on keyboards anyway.
> Has someone here picked a musical instrument seriously for the first time in their 20s and managed to self learn? If yes, it would be helpful if you could point to resources that were helpful to you and any daily practice schedule you followed?
Self-learning piano is, overall, a boondoggle. You want a teacher.
I started learning piano in December 2018 at the age of 27.
For the first couple months I stayed on my own to build up at least some base knowledge before getting a (remote) teacher in April 2019. I mostly used a service called Flowkey (sorta like Synthesia for the web), the book Music Theory for Dummies, and a course on Udemy by Ben Westenra.
I highly recommend getting a teacher, even remote, using a site like TakeLessons.com. They'll keep you motivated, answer your questions, and set accomplishable goals.
> I have tried learning piano and I found a lot of stuff irritatingly hard to get right and got bored. Like for some reason I am not able to transition to other keys well when I am using both hands or when some finger involuntarily moves because of motion of neighboring finger.
Cumulative hours of practice are necessary to learn even a single piece, and short of Matrix-style skill uploading, there's no shortcut to putting the time in.
> Also, I seem to get finger fatigue which is surprising considering the amount of time I spend on keyboards anyway.
Not all keys are the same. :) Your fingers are getting a much different and more intense workout by playing.
Edit- Updated language since someone focused on pulling a "gotcha" on me for upvotes over the context (in this case, piano.)
>> Self-learning is, overall, a boondoggle. You want a teacher.
“I play the guitar. I taught myself how to play the guitar, which was a bad decision because I didn’t know how to play it, so I was a [bad] teacher. I would never have went to me.”
I'm told it's easier to self-learn the guitar, but you're working against your own interests if you're violently opposed to the idea of a teacher, no matter the instrument.
This is false. If you want to strum some chords, then, yes. Guitar's difficulty curve starts out very gentle. But then it quickly gets really, really steep. I self taught classical guitar for a couple of years (after already having played violin for many years), and it's easy to get yourself to the point where it's hard to advance without a teacher. And the harder you push on that knee in the curve by yourself, the more time you'll probably have to spend unlearning bad habits.
Piano's difficulty curve is more even. It starts steeper than guitar, and has a long stretch at about that same slope, before it starts getting steep, too. Compare that to violin which starts basically straight up, but once you get past that initial cliff is fairly gentle for a long, long way.
Interesting multidimensional analysis. I’d like to see a collection and ongoing discussion of these graphs. Not just for musical instruments but everything. Start a blog, friend, or point me at ones you’ve seen.
I'll add a todo to my list to write up the idea. As far as I know I came up with it, and I've been telling it to people in person for at least a decade.
Finger fatigue suggests you're holding tension in your fingers and wrists. A good teacher can help you with that. You need to learn to keep your fingers and wrists as relaxed as possible - which is unbelievably hard to do when you're also trying to learn how to read music.
Watch some slow piano music being played by a concert pianist, and you'll see that - except for the odd flourish - they move fingers and wrists as little as possible. The hands float, they don't hover in a tense way.
It also depends on the keyboard you're using. There's a big difference between a soft and fast keyboard action and a piano action with real or simulated hammers. The latter is much harder on your fingers to start with, but gives you more control and stamina later.
your last point is spot-on; I have a decent yamaha electric piano and the action is quite a bit heavier than my sister's Boston acuostic. It's not suprising but still notable how much more fatigued you feel after an hour of playing mine vs. hers.
One of the many things a good teacher will help you do is avoid technical pitfalls. If you do this on your own unchecked, chances are you will end up blocked somewhere down the road and having to relearn basic techniques.
Another thing is they will have plenty of interesting musical practice material that suits your skill level and interests.
They'll also help you manage your expectations.
I've got quite a few students who were very uneven in their growth. They've had to learn basic things in one area while very advanced in another. More often than not, they've had to relearn things they learned to do the wrong way from scratch.
Learning to play a musical instrument is usually not easy. If you can afford the investment of time and/or money, get a teacher. The good ones are worth their weight in gold, and the good news for you is, they're relatively cheap. They get paid peanuts in comparison to you as a techie.
Piano fingering technique is very important. That's not just which finger hits which key, but also the posture of your finger. That could be what's straining your fingers and giving you trouble reaching keys.
I found a local piano teacher and took weekly lessons. The piano teacher caught these bad habits like finger technique, but also how hard to hit the keys and other things that I wouldn't have noticed on my own.
If you are set on self-learning, getting a few lessons every once in a while will help you stay on track.
Self-learning any instrument is exceedingly hard. I cannot recommend a tutor highly enough. There's a lot of, well art to it that's difficult to convey other than in person. Self-learners often pick up bad habits which limits them and drain the fun out of it.
I picked up clarinet a few years ago, and while I made good progress just from practicing it was not until I engaged with a tutor I really got going.
This, times 100. Other commenters in this thread recommend apps like simply piano. That is bad advice. I have a tutor 30 mins per week and made my progress exponential. All the popular apps are just video games with high scores etc. No feedback on posture, fingering, tempo and lots of other stuff.
Please, please, find a tutor and be amazed about what he or she can make you accomplish.
Violin at ripe old age of 25. The key for me was enjoyment... playing with others, picking the kind of music I vibe with, not bothering with exercises that are devoid of emotion and joy. I slapped frets on my violin to make the learning curve easier, which made a few people raise an eyebrow, but... I don't care. I'm here to enjoy it, not to become a purist.
Can I real sheet music? Nope. Do I understand all the fancy words describing techniques? No. Am I good at this? Good enough that when I play, people dance. That counts as a success in my book.
\o fellow violinist here. Never thought about frets, but a lot of people (myself included) started with tape on their fingerboard. Usually it'd only go to about 2nd position at most. You have a reference point for where to place your finger, but it doesn't impact pitch (and prevent vibrato) as much as a fret would.
> a lot of people (myself included) started with tape on their fingerboard.
I have come to dislike this method. It gets the student focused on looking at the fingerboard and using the small lateral muscles in their fingers to try to reach for the tape rather than finding the large muscle positioning and biomechanics that produces in tune fingerings.
Hold up your hand with fingers straight. Try spreading your fingers and then pulling them together fast. They kind of "pop" between the two positions, and if you look at the spread position, they're basically the same distance apart. So if you can arrange your arm so that spread drops an in-tune whole step on the fingerboard and together drops an in-tune half step, you will play in tune.
You do that by rotating your elbow under the instrument. The farther toward your back the elbow is, the more your hand is angled from the neck, and the closer the spacing between where your fingers fall on the fingerboard. The more your push your elbow forward, the more your fingers fall farther apart on the strings. There's an in-tune position for each of the four strings, and kind of inbetweens for double stops. Training your gross muscle memory to find that position is vastly easier than searching for tapes, you don't get in the habit of looking at the fingerboard (because there's nothing there that makes a difference), and you don't get slowed down later because your lateral muscles in your fingers are tense and making your fingers move slower.
The funny thing is that I think this was described in Geminiani's treatise, which was the first manual of violin playing ever.
Fundamentally, technique differs a lot based on size of the player. Ricci vs Perlman vs Shaham vs Midori vs Hahn vs Paganini, they all make the technique looks effortless. And the a lot reason why is because they've spent a lot of time removing bad tension from their playing.
While elbow positioning does matter, it is more a function of string and third vs fifth hand position. The fingerboard is curved, not flat, and you want the finger to land normal to the board for any given string.
Look for the work of Sol Babitz, or if you can't find it, Borivoj Martinic-Jercic's forward to his exercises.
For me, what helped the most was removing the shoulder rest during practice. You become accutely aware of the the delicate balancing act that needs to occur, and the forces you put on the instrument. With time, you can develop balance in the left hand and achieve better dexterity than before. For anyone with sufficiently long neck, you can no longer rely on continual holding, and need to support the instrument (in fixed position sections) via the thumb. This encourages you to release pressure on the digits as you play. :-)
But like OP said, they're happy so why mess with what works for them. :-)
P.S. what rep are you working on? Feel free to drop me an email if you're interested in discussing more.
> Fundamentally, technique differs a lot based on size of the player.
I'm not sure about this. I'm tall and have huge hands, but I've seen the same approach work for quite small people. The actual technique you end up with can look quite different, but I think the goal is pedagogy that directs attention to the right things and let the rest fall in place around it.
> you want the finger to land normal to the board for any given string.
It's not clear to me why that would be.
I don't have access to a music library anymore, so the Babitz stuff looks like it might be hard to find, but the Martinic-Jercic book looks really interesting. Thanks!
> For me, what helped the most was removing the shoulder rest during practice.
When I decided I didn't have time to maintain both a Baroque and a modern technique, I ended up merging them. Haven't used a shoulder rest in years, but I do use a low, center mount chinrest with a gel pad on it.
I'm actually starting on the Bach two part inventions on piano these days in my small amount of time I allocate to music. I haven't touched my violin in months, sadly.
>> you want the finger to land normal to the board for any given string.
>
> It's not clear to me why that would be.
Tone and tension. You have to use a lot more force to push the string down, if you hit it at an angle. To clarify, I mean normal mostly in the plane perpendicular to the string (across the body). If your elbow is rotated too far backwards and you're trying to play on the G string, your finger will end up nearly parallel with the fingerboard. To reach the G string, you'll have to extend the fingers (at least, with my sized hands). Do not avoid the higher string though, as this too will affect tone.
The strongest and also most relaxed hand position is naturally curled (mostly a fist, but you can't really play the left hand that way... You can the right hand however). By rotating the elbow, you preserve that relaxed hand position on all strings in lower positions.
> When I decided I didn't have time to maintain both a Baroque and a modern technique, I ended up merging them. Haven't used a shoulder rest in years, but I do use a low, center mount chinrest with a gel pad on it.
When you seek left hand balance, you want to minimize downward force, so you can apply equal upward force with your thumb (this is roughly balance). With a shoulder rest (or I fear, a tall chin rest), you can also apply supporting force via the chin and the rest, but that's a source of tension if you're not careful.
You can still perform many shifts with little downward pressure, if you leave the thumb immobile during the shift (either moving before or after). Some shifts where both move are still possible. After lots of practice (perhaps less for you, since you are already accustomed to playing without a shoulder rest -- I wasn't yet), you can get it to a minimum even in Concertos like the Tchaikovsky.
> I don't have access to a music library anymore, so the Babitz stuff looks like it might be hard to find, but the Martinic-Jercic book looks really interesting. Thanks!
I have a PDF of the Babitz that I scanned while at school if you are curious. It's a collection of his short articles in other publications. And to clarify in case it might not've been obvious, I studied under Boro. I don't have any monetary interest in his book, but I do think he made a lot of sense.
> ...To clarify, I mean normal mostly in the plane perpendicular to the string (across the body)...
Ah, we're talking about exactly the same thing. Just a question of how we phrase it.
> After lots of practice (perhaps less for you, since you are already accustomed to playing without a shoulder rest -- I wasn't yet), you can get it to a minimum even in Concertos like the Tchaikovsky.
I tried to go full Baroque first where I shifted around an immobile thumb. Despite having big hands, there's that down shift in the first movement of the Mendelssohn. I spent a few weeks trying to figure out how to reliably make that shift without using the chin, and never found a way.
So at this point I ideally only apply pressure to the chin rest when I need to do a downshift, and only just enough to keep it the violin from pulling away from my neck. I've found Ricci's recommendation of glissando scales to be a great way of training this (as well as so much else): ascend without touching the violin with your chin. Descend with as little pressure on the violin as you can manage.
> I slapped frets on my violin to make the learning curve easier
It's not totally crazy. Fretted, bowed instruments have a long history, such as the viola da gamba. The frets there have more to do with tone than pitch, though.
I picked up the guitar a few years back in my mid 30s, did lessons for a year, took a year off and got back into it through Covid-19.
> I have tried learning piano and I found a lot of stuff irritatingly hard to get right and got bored
This maps to my first experience. Your first obstacle is the UI and getting your hands to do what your brain wants them to do without thinking about it. For myself learning guitar, this was the hardest obstacle. Once you sort out the mechanics of playing without thinking, you can start thinking about the music and actually having fun.
My only question is, do you really want to learn the piano?
Cause you need to want it, to get through those first few weeks/months of getting used to the UI. Until you break that barrier it's going to be un-fun and sound terrible and be very frustrating. The desire to play needs to be great enough to push through that. If you don't want it, you'll struggle to force yourself to push through.
To answer your actual question, Youtube and other musicians are what I feel most help me grow right now. I've done in person classes, bought books, bought multiple online classes and trawled Youtube for endless hours looking for lessons and song play alongs (getting a sense of the pattern of how important really wanting to learn to play is?). It wasn't until I started playing with other musicians that my abilities and understanding really took off.
I started learning the piano in my 20s, and now have been playing it for over 10 years.
The key for me was to forego all theory learning and just have fun with it. Eventually, I got into it enough to go through all the memorization bits.
If piano sounds appealing to you, I recommend using software like Synthesia to make the first few months as easy as possible, to get excited about it.
I have the impression that many people learning instruments, and sadly also many teachers, take an approach that kills motivation.
It seems to me that very few people want to become professionals, and that most just want to be able to play a few songs and have fun. For that you don't need perfect posture, or learn all the scales, sight read, etc.
Although I learned (and forgot) playing guitar <20, I got interested again in playing these days/months. From what I see, https://www.justinguitar.com/ is a great resource if you got the self discipline.
I believe guitar is a very accessible instrument and an electric guitar is easy to practice silently late at night, relatively cheap (Squier Stratocaster Pack etc.) and easy on the fingers compared to, for example, an acoustic guitar.
With learning 4-5 chords, you can perfectly cover lots of great songs. Learning pentatonic scale is not that hard for improvising soloing over those chords with a cheap loop pedal. All under 200-250$ and half an hour a day for, let's say, a year.
In reddit /r/piano there are a lot of similar questions, and as someone learning piano in their 50s is always amuses me.
I self-tought to about an ABRSM grade 1 level before getting a teacher, but I had done a little bit (less than a year) as a small kid.
Particularly the early stages are very hard and it takes a lot of practice to do seemlingly trivial things. It is a differnet skill from touch typing. I find the "Dozen a Day" books of studies really good for training your fingers to do what you want them to, instead of what they want to do.
I tried to learn guitar a couple of years ago. I wanted to learn something which required me to use my fingers differently than on a keyboard. But, as someone in their 50s with a lifetime of working on software I found it practically impossible to get my fingers to curve the way they needed to for the guitar. The physical pain eventually made me give up. If anyone has any tips to work around this limitation will be great to hear
I’ve never understood why the ability to play music is still locked away behind such difficult, even painful ‘user interfaces’ of traditional instruments.
Why don’t we have more beginner-friendly and ergonomic instruments? Is it just because they’re seen as ‘cheating’?
In my 20s, I self-taught myself drums, percussion, piano/keyboard, Ableton, DJ (live mixing and remixing in multihour sets using vinyl records, samplers, and other bits of gear - very much a kind of musical instrument - perhaps it’s more of a meta-instrument).
I play a lot of instruments (have been playing guitar, bass, woodwinds, and singing since age 10), and my practice routines on various instruments have a lovely way of informing my development and expression on others.
> Has someone here have picked a musical instrument seriously for the first time in their 20s and managed to self learn?
Yeah, I've learnt piano and drums just last few years (I'm 28). I'm no professional, but I also had difficulties with using both hands, involuntarily movements and fatigue in different parts of the body.
Best thing I done was just to practice, practice and more practice. Practice with one hand first until you know it without thinking, then add the other hand slowly. Same goes from drums (and other instruments I'm assuming), start slowly until you know it by heart, then speed up.
No strict schedule, I just play when I feel like it. If I want something intense I play drums. If I feel like melodies, I play piano. Otherwise I mostly use a Novation Circuit and Octatrack (and some other smaller gadgets for bass lines etc) for playing electronic music, mostly just improvisation.
I tried guitar in my 20's but it didn't stick. Then I picked it up again in my 40's and it did stick. I needed a distraction in my life. I used free youtube guitar teachers such as justin guitar and found songs to play along with. Initially I used tabs (written guides for what strings/positions to play) and eventually was able to figure out songs by ear. Most recently I've switched to bass guitar and am having a blast. I play most days. I think the most important thing is to have fun with whatever instrument you pick. When listening to the radio I listen for songs that have a good bass line. When I hear one I send myself a message or add a bookmark and try to play it later.
I worked on Piano in my 20s and a bit in my 30s and had several different in person teachers. I did almost no music as a kid.
Sometimes you just picked the wrong instrument.. The day I officially gave up piano (with RSIs from piano even) I bought a guitar as a consolation "I didn't really give up" thing.
That was about 6 years ago.. I've taken guitar lessons the last 4 years and have had great success compared to piano. I would say my guitar teacher is a much superior teacher than the piano teachers I had though.
Sometimes you just picked the wrong instrument. I don't miss piano at all really. I still love the piano but it wasn't for me.. and guitars are far more affordable which is very nice.
The muscle memory can only be developed by constantly doing the same thing over a long period of time, every day. Every time you sleep is when the skill learned during the day is actually "saved" and increased.
Trying to do everything perfect at once from the start is impossible. Only once something gets into your muscle memory you can focus on other things. At first you might not be able to find the correct key and have to constantly look at the keyboard, but once you are over that you can now focus on coordination, rhythm or other stuff.
Learning and getting better is just the process of constantly embedding something in your muscle memory so you can consciously focus on something else.
I did. I was able to self learn the guitar and can play relatively well. I used Justin guitar for the basics a long time ago and then jumped right into learning songs. Using a metronome is the most important thing since it puts pressure on you. You have to do a “performance” every so often and that works for some reason. Initially it was my roommates but later in life it was my wife :) The interest to grasp theory for me came a lot later and I know a lot of it but don’t do much in the way of composing or using it too much so there’s that. But I’ve heard that the recommended way is to get a tutor from many many people.
Learned Tabla (a South Asian percussion instrument) this year at age 31. A teacher is must. Not only does a good teacher give you customized advice on what to practice, based on your weaknesses, but is also able to tell you when you are ready to move on.
More precisely, a good teacher, will constantly keep you in the slightly uncomfortable phase of not too easy, not too difficult practice.
I started playing guitar when I was 25, with the help of some random youtube videos and a growth mind set. And now piano at age 39, so far just doing random things, as long as it sounds nice.
On my resume I like to put everyone that plays piano isn't a Beethoven. There is a range between expert and those who don't even play. This is my excuse for being in IT but not well in programming.
I'd be super impressed. I'd much rather hire someone who was up front about their limitations than someone who thought they were a '10x programmer'. A bit of humility will get you much further than misplaced arrogance.
If you have a child < 5 years old, I highly recommend teaching them perfect pitch, AKA absolute pitch. In my experience it only took a few hours of note-color association in combination with some stickers on the piano keys for my child to learn absolute pitch at 2 years old, which they have retained for years.
0. Buy a cheap Yamaha or Casio keyboard, which can be had for 80-120 used. Leave it on the floor, plugged in and on them to play with at any time.
1. Buy color stickers, like https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DRGXBIM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apip_WTz....
2. Label each unique note in the twelve tone scale with a distinct color. The system I used was the one from welearnandplay.com: cdefgab=red,yellow,green,orange,blue,gray,purple.
3. Play games with the kid’s favorite toys and the notes.
- Example: find a red and green toy. Introduce the red toy while singing red=C, like “this is the red truck/doll/fox/whatever”. Then do the same with the other color you picked. Have them show you a toy, then sing a story about that toy using only that color note.
- Point out the colors of things you see. Use a tuner or piano app on your phone to generate accurate tones. This requires that you memorize the note color system yourself, which will happen easily after about an hour of initial play.
Important: don’t “quiz” your child or test their absolute pitch progress in any overt way. That is a quick way to suck all the fun out of it and kill their interest in the games.
If you want to learn the acoustic instrument-- either upright or grand piano-- pay a teacher to show you how to learn.
There are just so many parts of piano-playing that are counterintuitive. At the same time, if you learn them early and practice a little bit, it's not difficult to develop healthy habits that will make everything you play sound more natural and beautiful.
It's a bit frustrating because at least in the U.S., most people don't do this and just learn how to depress some keys in the right order.
To me, hearing that result is equivalent to walking into someone's house and seeing pictures on the wall where the paint is smeared past the border onto the wall. It's novel the first time, but once you realize everyone's walls are like that you start to feel like you're being set up to eventually burn to death inside a wicker man.
Does this transfer to online lessons? As of right now, there's a plague that we're trying not to transfer right now. (As far as I've heard, online lessons are not that great, relatively speaking.)
If there's a experienced human teacher on the other end, you're good as far as my argument goes.
However, I think you'll run into all the general problems of doing business over a Zoom call. Dropouts, poor audio quality, lag, and all the weirdo problems of having a poor substitute for a physical presence.
The problem from my perspective is that video is a poor way to learn or diagnose technique. They can listen to the sound (albeit depending on their setup, inaccurately), but how do you tell if the student has tension in their shoulder (as an example)?
Paying a teacher is very expensive and a large time commitment, could you elaborate why the things a teacher can show you are not covered by online or self study
Perhaps you just found an old dusty upright piano next to a dumpster, and you moved it into your apartment. Pehaps you pay a "very expensive" teacher $50 and make a "large time commitment" of 30 minutes for a single lesson. (Btw-- what's the going rate for even moving an upright these days? I'd bet it's more than $50)
The teacher asks you where you'll be practicing, and on what type of instrument. Suppose it's the old upright. As a professional responsibility, that teacher is going to find out exactly what shape that piano is in, if it's in tune, if it has a broken soundboard, etc. Based on what the teacher finds out, they will give you valuable feedback on whether it's even worth it for you to devote learning on that instrument (perhaps it's woefully out of tune[1], which you wouldn't know if you're just a beginner). As well as whether it's worth paying a piano tuner to have a look at the instrument. Tuning costs more than $50, so on that detail alone you may have gotten your money's worth.
Now imagine that instead of an old dusty upright, you have access to a grand piano practice room at a college with a well-funded music dept. You again pay your astronomical fee of $50 for the long duration of 30 full minutes. But the teacher spends the last 10 minutes of your lesson talking about dusty old broken uprights, and all the problems you'd run into if you happened to be playing on that instead of accessing the college's practice rooms.
As a beginner, that last ten minutes would clearly be a waste of your time, right?
Now extend that waste of time over, say, 1/3 of the total time you attempt to learn the piano.
That is pretty much the problem you run into with online/self-study. Either the guide gives you so much material that's irrelevant to your context that it slows your pace of learning, or-- probably worse-- it leaves out crucial details that you need to know in order to progress efficiently.
Finding a human mentor through a web of trust avoids those problems.
In fact, it gets worse over time for the online/self-study because you're entirely dependent upon your own opinion of your progress, which-- as a beginner-- is guaranteed to be flawed. This is an easy route to burn out. Perhaps you feel your progress stunted, whereas a professional could tell you that you've simply underestimated the increase of difficulty of a particular skill. Not to mention setting reasonable expectations for progress in the first place, and a hundred other considerations that a mentor can immediately discover and provide feedback for.
[1] More exponential explosion-- there are various ways in which a piano may be out of tune. A teacher can tell you whether that happens to be imperfect yet usable, or whether it renders it completely worthless as a practice instrument.
For context, I started playing piano when I was a kid with a mix of classes and self-learn, tried to pick up guitar a few years ago and I'm now learning clarinet with a teacher.
With this experience, I can say that self-learning an instrument is the most inefficient way to learn it, specially if you haven't already learned another instrument before. Don't bother comparing it to self-learning programming because it's a whole different world:
- If you don't know basic music theory (notes, rhythms, basic chords, etc) you'll have a hard time understanding any method or any other resource of any kind. A teacher will usually teach you those concepts as you go along and help you understand them. You can self-learn music theory but it's not the fastest way.
- As a beginner, your ear is not trained to the instrument. If you haven't played an instrument before, your ear won't be trained at all. You will sound bad and you won't know why. Having a teacher hear you and tell you what's going wrong will help you advance faster and also train your ear so you detect those issues.
- Technique. This is one of the things that's the hardest to learn by yourself. You can read books and watch videos and still nothing beats having direct feedback from someone who knows the technique. You might struggle days by yourself for days to play some passage, then your teacher comes along and tells you how to do it in five minutes. And yeah, that teacher will probably make you do boring exercises, but let me tell you something: those exercises are necessary. I didn't do enough exercises when I learned piano, and I feel that lack of technique and agility now. On the other hand, now my clarinet teacher insists on technical exercise along with practicing pieces and those exercises are already paying off, in the sense that I can pick up pieces faster. Technique is necessary, if you don't do it at the beginning you'll hit a wall later on, you'll need to practice technique anyways and it'll be worse because you will have picked up bad habits.
- Repertoire. As a beginner in an instrument, knowing which pieces you can play is really hard. A good teacher will know pieces and will give you pieces that you like, that are up to your level and it a lot of cases they will actually help you improve with certain aspects.
If you are serious about wanting to learn an instrument (as in 'I want to dedicate time and effort to this', not necessarily being professional or anything), the best option is to get a teacher. It's more expensive, of course, but tends to be more rewarding and efficient. Even if you only take a few months of classes when you're starting, it will give you a lot more tools to continue improving than if you were doing it by yourself.
Also, there are no shortcuts. I've seen a lot of people who wanted to learn piano, and instead of starting with the basics they just took a song way above their level and tried to play it. After a year, the song still sounds bad, and they haven't actually learned anything that helps them playing another piece. Playing music is amazing, but be patient and don't be discouraged when it takes time.
That's great advice. I had two piano teachers. One of them made me love going to the lessons and the other made me hate to go there. The latter was first so I quit piano and took a few years break before I found the teacher who gave me inspiration.
That's the main issue with teachers. Bad teachers can really make you quit an instrument, same with parents forcing kids to go to lessons. Luckily I think here in HN most people will be able to choose a teacher and leave it if they don't like it.
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My www.freepianomethod.com website continues to thrive thanks to your generous mentioning of it in your Hacker News. I am receiving emails from all over the world from people who, until now, had no way to learn music or to play the piano. I am 80 years old, and my dream of sharing my piano method, for free, with the world is coming true. Thank you for all you have done!
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--Mayron Cole