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Oracle Ordered to Reduce Claims Against Google From 132 to 3 (groklaw.net)
142 points by gluegadget on May 5, 2011 | hide | past | favorite | 38 comments



From the court document; "Each side may file a five-page (double spaced, twelve-point Times New Roman font, no footnotes, and no attachments) critique..."

Methinks the judge has played with lawyers before and seen first-hand their propensity to deliver amazonian briefs. The programmer in me however cannot help but notice that he omitted the size of paper they can use for each "page". Or maybe he assumes it's "legal" - by definition. <g>

But I like an accurate spec I do. I wish that all my clients were this precise.


How amazing would it be to see them deliver it on five A1 pages, just to see the look on the judge's face.


IANAL, but such an action would likely be construed as contempt of court, especially given the exactness of what was requested.


There's zero chance it will actually happen so it's pretty moot.


They could print it on a roll of paper.


I'm sure the judge would be quite impressed.


I can tell you've spent a lot of time around judges. If there is anything they love, it's being made a fool of or losing face in their own courtroom.


I think chopsueyar was being sarcastic.


Yes, piss off the judge by deliberately misconstruing rules. That's the ticket.


How on earth did you read my comment as my legal advice to them, it was obviously in the spirit of humour.


How on earth did you assume I had taken your suggestion seriously? I was obviously writing a snarky reply.


Then he naturally defines "sheet" to be "3x5 card". :)


I'm not on Oracle's side in this case, but can someone explain how can a judge just toss out 98% of the claims in a patent case without any explanation other than (apparently) that it will take too long to try them all?


Generally speaking, lawyers will throw everything they have at the wall and see what sticks. I believe this is basically taught as official strategy.

However, it is pretty obvious that some of what they are throwing has a reasonable chance of sticking, and some things are just being thrown because why not? It isn't that hard for the parties to sort their arguments by likelihood of success and present just the best, and if you think about how to model that, you'll see that for a vanishing fraction of the work you basically end up with a high probability of getting the same result the hypothetical full trial would have.

Now, combine that with the fact that trials aren't free and the taxpayers are a party in the suit in the sense that they are paying the judge, infrastructure, etc, and also the general fact that if there was an injustice committed by Google every day that Oracle goes without renumeration is itself a further injustice, and you can see that there is a compelling interest in completing the trial sooner rather than later, and in the balance of things if that means jettisoning a series of arguments unlikely to succeed anyhow, this is a net win. "It will take too long to try them all" is a valid concern for everybody; what's the point of the trial if the expenses the trial incurs to Oracle, Google, and the taxpayers are larger than any possible judgment's time-value-of-money could possibly be, to take one limit case?

Also, this will apparently go to a jury. You can't stuff arbitrary amounts of information at a jury and expect results. I would argue that the bound on what you can expect a jury to understand is itself a critical (and underappreciated) component of our system. If 12 laymen can't understand it after several months of targeted instruction, the law is too vague to apply in the first place.


This is speculation, but it could be that it is completely pointless to try all the claims. Patent claims fall into two groups: independent claims and dependent claims.

Independent claims stand alone. Dependent claims depend on independent claims--they are basically special cases of the independent claims.

For instance, suppose chairs were new and patentable. An independent claim might be for "a device for sitting comprising a level surface to support the buttocks and 4 legs". Let's call that claim #1. Claim #2 might be "The device of claim #1 where the legs contact the floor at the corners of a rectangle". Claim #2 is a dependent claim of #1. Claim #3 might be "The device of claim #1 where the legs are made of metal". Claim #4 might be "The device of claim #3 where the legs are covered with cloth".

The complete set of claims in data structure terms forms a forrest of trees, one tree per independent claim, with the independent claim at the root, and the dependent claims as children.

Generally, the independent claims are the most general (and the most likely to be invalidated by prior art or failure to be non-obvious). The dependent claims get more and more specific the farther down they are in the tree of claims that springs from an independent claim.

All it takes is one valid infringed claim to stop the defendant. If he's infringing one of your claims, you get to stop him from making and selling his product without your permission, and you get damages for his past sales. If he's infringing 10 of your claims, you get the same thing. If he's infringing 100 claims, you get the same thing.

So what is the point of trying each and every claim? Pick the handful for which you can make your best case, and concentrate on those. If you can't win those, you probably could not win the others.


I was wondering the same thing. Can a judge really order plaintiffs to permanently abandon claims just because they would be too complicated to try? He hasn't even decided which claims can continue, just says Oracle needs to pick 3. Another oddity is that he's limiting the number of prior art claims Google can bring. Can a judge really limit your allowable defenses?

I've always thought there had to be some merit-based or procedural argument to dismiss any part of a case with prejudice. Also, there's cases all the time with more than 3 patent claims at stake, so clearly there's no absolute rule that a case can't go beyond a certain level of complexity.

I hope someone with actual legal knowledge can chime in.


Well, consider the alternative.

Suppose Google says, "We have 78,354 instances of prior art, we'd like you to consider each one in turn. If one of them is good enough, we win. If none are, we lose. Sometime next century."

Since it only takes one piece of prior art for a legitimate defence, it makes sense to say that the defence should only present the best examples.

Limiting the plaintiff does seem a bit harder to justify. If each infringement is legitimate, it seems Oracle should get to try each one. I suppose that if they succeed with these three, they would have a strong case to make saying, "Now we get to try more". So it makes some sense. Try your best examples first, don't waste the court's time and money until you've shown some legitimacy to your claims.


Yeah, but the judge says all other claims have to be dropped forever, so Oracle never gets to try them.

So if someone infringes a lot of your patents, you only ever get to enforce a small subset? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.


No, the last sentence of the first quote from the judge's order says Oracle can't use any of those claims for existing products. As soon as Oracle comes up with a new product those claims are possible again.


Note that the order is only that the other claims be permanently abandoned against this one product. Suppose Google loses, and ends up having to pay royalties to Oracle for their current incarnation of Android.

At some point, Google then releases a new version of Android, where they have changed the parts that were found to infringe so as to not infringe in their opinion, and stop paying royalties.

Is that a new product?

My guess is that for purposes of this kind of order, it would be.


In the order itself, the words "the Court proposes" along with other language used later in the order imply to me that there has been some discussion/agreement among the parties and the judge.

Something has to be done to reduce the scope of the case. So long as software patents are tolerated, there's going to be an overwhelming load on the patent office and on courts. For them to do their jobs well, something has to give.


Judges have a lot of authority, and he is right, after all.


Yes, this might sound simplistic but it the answer.

A judge really does have nearly absolute authority within his court (including the ability to sentence anyone in the court to jail time for contempt). If you walk into a court with a claim that's correct by the letter of the law but egregious in some other fashion, the judge can and will say "this is baloney, get the * out" and there will likely be nothing you can do about it.


Maybe the judge realizes how much bullshit both parties' lawyers are full of?


It sounded to me like the judge doesn't expect this case to go to trial. He sounded like he fully expects them to settle and this was his way of encouraging that.


Exactly, especially since Oracle won't be able to use dropped claims in any case against Android in the future.


Rulings can be appealed, so I wouldn't count on that. This is going to be a long road for both parties.


Judge Alsup also ruled in the recent case where Edge Games was trolling EA. Sharp guy, and clearly a low tolerance for BS. http://boingboing.net/2010/10/05/judge-rules-against.html


From the article:

Judge William Alsup described Edge Games as 'trolling' and suggested that it could face criminal charges

In his order, Alsup even created info-graphics comparing Dr. Langdell's USPTO filings with the actual products, describing in detail "evidence of fraud" that forces the court to play "spot the differences:"

---

This judge is brilliant.


Note from reading carefully and per comments on the post, the "3" may be a typo because the timetable involves reducing the claims from 3 to 20 to 10 or somesuch.

In essence, it's clear that the judge wants to pare down the case to the strongest elements from each side using a triage process on both sides. Seems reasonable and not necessarily an indication that the judge is leaning one way or another.


I thought groklaw was being discontinued?


May 16th, Groklaw's anniversary.[0] Though apparently it may continue in some form? [1]

[0] http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110409161444432

[1] http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110414184224418


Next time, Oracle will use a court in East Texas...


Maybe after they get a time machine and go back to around 2006, when plaintiffs were winning more than defendants there, as opposed to now where it isn't even in the top 5.


I want the source for this claim.

I've seen this info spread before but I've never seen a source for it and it strikes me as fake. Is there even anyone compiling court house judgment rankings? And if it is true that other courts are more favorable why would patent trolls continue trying to take the cases to east Texas?



Thanks!

It still looks like East Texas is favorable for plaintiffs, and it still retains the reputation as the most favorable.


What is the trendy court for patent trolls? Since I don't live in the US, court fashion uses to escape me.




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