> The template given was nothing like that, at all.
That's fair, I waded in to discuss a related pet issue and it's probably not fair to have posted the way I did.
> Regardless, I firmly believe that this attitude is keeping many people out of the tech business, let alone open source. Society shows that niceties are wanted and work, especially by women, a demographic under-represented in most parts of tech. I also find that not showing niceties is a display of dominance and self-importance, again, something that isn't going to bring more people into tech.
Let's start with the part where I said "though I don't usually respond so." It irritates me, but I tolerate it because my goal is to help people.
As for not having space for stories/niceties driving away women, I don't walk into the emergency room and think "man, this is a sausage fest". Usually there are vastly more women working there than men. Yet from discussions I've had with people who work in that area this is a common frustration there as well.
"You're bleeding, I don't need to hear about how depressed you've been since your grades are poor, fast forward to the part where you slipped while drunk and fell onto a broken beer bottle so I know what kind of treatment to administer." That's a made up example but is actually less ridiculous than the actual examples I've heard.
I'm not saying to leave out relevant details, but when you're bleeding or have broken bones or your left side is going numb, just tell the doctor the facts, as concisely and as clearly as you can.
If you want to tell stories, go to your primary doctor when you're not facing an emergency. Or, and this is not dismissive so please don't interpret it as such, go to a therapist, or a councilor.
A bug report on an issue tracker is obviously not life threatening in the vast vast majority of cases, but it's the same idea. It's where you go when things are broken, so tell me what's broken and the relevant context.
If you want to give thanks or talk about what you like or how you get value from the project or whatever, there are other venues for that and I encourage you to use them. Or put it at the end of the issue thread after the problem is at least identified. I've never been upset at someone for clearly expressing the problem and then saying thanks when I fix or acknowledge it.
EDIT:
> I also find that not showing niceties is a display of dominance and self-importance, again, something that isn't going to bring more people into tech.
It takes some serious mental gymnastics to turn a focus on helping people as quickly as possible into "a display of dominance and self-importance". I'm specifically asking people to not kiss my ass about "how much this project helped them during a dark time in their life" or whatever so I can get to the root of the problem they're encountering and resolve it.
It's incredibly bad faith to claim that trying to be efficient with my volunteered time so I can help as many people as possible is an attempt to dominate the people I'm helping. Frankly this sentence makes me question your motives here. Had I taken this sentence in earlier I wouldn't have responded to your post at all.
Yes, get rid of the niceties when you're under the kind of time pressure and situation you might find in an emergency room and you're bleeding.
Otherwise, use them. Does your development time resemble the conditions above, or is it more like you sitting at a keyboard in a nice room with a coffee reading comments on the internet?
As to an emergency room not looking like a sausage fest, the stats don't back you up. From [1]:
> The study's lead author, Remle P. Crowe, a research scientist at ESO – an emergency-medicine data company based in Austin, Texas – says she wasn't particularly surprised by the results, which culled data on graduates of EMS training courses as a proxy for likely diversity in the upcoming workforce. A former emergency medical technician, Crowe says the profession has long struggled to attract minorities and women, and previous studies have shown similar outcomes.
There are plenty of numbers given in the article that show low numbers of women among emergency room staff.
> Yes, get rid of the niceties when you're under the kind of time pressure and situation you might find in an emergency room and you're bleeding.
Again it's my fault, I brought up storytelling and was complaining about that. I'm not upset at the word "please" or something. Your posts keep saying niceties and my posts keep saying stories, which makes me think either you're not hearing my repeated admissions of sidetracking or you're intentionally pushing an agenda.
> > That's fair, I waded in to discuss a related pet issue and it's probably not fair to have posted the way I did.
Was my wording there.
> As to an emergency room not looking like a sausage fest, the stats don't back you up.
As I understand it emergency rooms work with EMS but most people in the emergency room are not EMS. If those stats do extend to the E.R. workers then I wonder whether my local E.R. does something different or if it's purely chance, but I'd estimate 70% female at least.
Either way the point was an analogy. Bug reports are for the bug details. There are other venues to talk about how much this leftPad library changed your life. That's all I'm trying to say.
It's very strange how in this thread maintainers who prefer ass kissing are egotistical and dominating, and maintainers who don't require ass kissing and would be more comfortable if you left it off are also egotistical and dominating. Is the message you want to convey simply that I should not volunteer my time to helping people?
This is what you responded to, this is what is being advocated.
> "Hi! First let me say how much I appreciate this library, it really helps with X.
When I, or anyone else in this thread advocates for adding a life story into a bug report or the like, then you can bring in your stories about stories and it'll be relevant.
> Is the message you want to convey simply that I should not volunteer my time to helping people?
Quite obviously not, it's that you should stop comparing yourself to those in life threatening, intensely time pressured situations and try to be more pleasant to those you're responding to, not trying to find excuses around doing so. You work in a pleasant environment, with low pressure, and are well rewarded, you definitely have the time to be well mannered.
> maintainers who prefer ass kissing are egotistical and dominating
It's not about "ass kissing" but basic respect, and if you wanted to provide an example of how not to exercise restraint and apply any semblance of etiquette, that would be a good one. Do you ever wonder why development is a "sausage fest" instead of the emergency room?
Speaking of basic respect, when someone admits to a mistake several times in a conversation and says explicitly "I waded in" and "it wasn't fair [of me]", repeatedly focusing on berating them for that mistake is not very respectful.
It shows that you are not listening to understand, but to find argumentative points. If you're truly concerned about dominating behavior that drives people away, I suggest you start with your own communication. I've been there myself, and I slip up quite often, so don't take this as judgement, only advice.
> Speaking of basic respect, when someone admits to a mistake several times in a conversation and says explicitly "I waded in" and "it wasn't fair [of me]", repeatedly focusing on berating them for that mistake is not very respectful.
We go from a grandmother's chilli recipe in an issue and end up with a comparison using bleeding patients in an ER. That's not someone apologising for a mistake and correcting, that's someone trying to wriggle around easily challenged and fantastical statements used as excuses. What next - are we airline pilots trying to save a plane with 3 failed engines while children selfishly ask for a tour of the cockpit?
That's fair, I waded in to discuss a related pet issue and it's probably not fair to have posted the way I did.
> Regardless, I firmly believe that this attitude is keeping many people out of the tech business, let alone open source. Society shows that niceties are wanted and work, especially by women, a demographic under-represented in most parts of tech. I also find that not showing niceties is a display of dominance and self-importance, again, something that isn't going to bring more people into tech.
Let's start with the part where I said "though I don't usually respond so." It irritates me, but I tolerate it because my goal is to help people.
As for not having space for stories/niceties driving away women, I don't walk into the emergency room and think "man, this is a sausage fest". Usually there are vastly more women working there than men. Yet from discussions I've had with people who work in that area this is a common frustration there as well.
"You're bleeding, I don't need to hear about how depressed you've been since your grades are poor, fast forward to the part where you slipped while drunk and fell onto a broken beer bottle so I know what kind of treatment to administer." That's a made up example but is actually less ridiculous than the actual examples I've heard.
I'm not saying to leave out relevant details, but when you're bleeding or have broken bones or your left side is going numb, just tell the doctor the facts, as concisely and as clearly as you can.
If you want to tell stories, go to your primary doctor when you're not facing an emergency. Or, and this is not dismissive so please don't interpret it as such, go to a therapist, or a councilor.
A bug report on an issue tracker is obviously not life threatening in the vast vast majority of cases, but it's the same idea. It's where you go when things are broken, so tell me what's broken and the relevant context.
If you want to give thanks or talk about what you like or how you get value from the project or whatever, there are other venues for that and I encourage you to use them. Or put it at the end of the issue thread after the problem is at least identified. I've never been upset at someone for clearly expressing the problem and then saying thanks when I fix or acknowledge it.
EDIT:
> I also find that not showing niceties is a display of dominance and self-importance, again, something that isn't going to bring more people into tech.
It takes some serious mental gymnastics to turn a focus on helping people as quickly as possible into "a display of dominance and self-importance". I'm specifically asking people to not kiss my ass about "how much this project helped them during a dark time in their life" or whatever so I can get to the root of the problem they're encountering and resolve it.
It's incredibly bad faith to claim that trying to be efficient with my volunteered time so I can help as many people as possible is an attempt to dominate the people I'm helping. Frankly this sentence makes me question your motives here. Had I taken this sentence in earlier I wouldn't have responded to your post at all.