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while you make an interesting point at the end, that framing seems to be jumping the gun (something you rightfully warned against in relation to deterministic vs random, downthread).

political conflict is much more complex and has many more gradations than just peace or war. on the "elephant queen" documentary, the narrator noted that the bulls rarely ever fight, but rather, upon meeting have a quick "discussion" whereby the lower status bull defers to the higher status bull and then they share some food to cement the relationship (not unlike a lot of human interactions). war is rare because it's so costly, no matter the pre- or post-hoc justification.

just yesterday, i watch 3 hawks in the skies over my LA neighborhood (where hawks are rarely seen in the middle of the day). it seemed like 2 of them were chasing an interloper away, but it could just as well have been them hanging out for awhile on the prevailing winds and then deciding to go somewhere else after a bit. it's hard to know what's going on with a few minutes of observation. it was quite interesting to watch nevertheless!

also, the issue with personification (which we tend to be overly concerned about) is not that we see our own behaviors in other animals, but that we become certain about the cause and effect for those other animals.




What's the frame you find premature?


Not him but:

> the ways that we rationalize our warfare, tribalism and such cannot actually be the reason for war

It can. War is just using violence to get what you want or need. It is not something special. Animals being violent do not prove anything about our reasons for war.


War is a specific behaviour, more complex than just violence. It has all sorts of characteristics.


Like coordination to commit that violence and large scale. But the whole point is to use violence to get what you want.


that war is such an essential characteristic to categorize it as a precognitive process. politics, as progenitor to war, is the jockeying of position for constrained resources, which seems to me to be the more discriminating, if less provocative, framing. politics pervades life, war not so much.




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