From what I have read from Gayle Laakmaan, they know this throws away many good engineers, but it is acceptable to them because it doesn’t let bad ones through.
I've definitely repeated that line in the past to justify tech industry interviewing practices - but sometimes it goes beyond "setting a high bar" to something more toxic: an interviewer using the interview as a chance to show off how smart _they_ are, rather than assess the candidate; deliberately creating high-stakes "pressure cooker" environments because, you know, that's just how we work here and they should get used to it; and so on. These things then get rolled into the same justification: after all, we're an exclusive club of ultra-smart 10x ninja pirate Jedi, which of course means we should have the default assumption that others don't belong in this club.
I wonder now: for every "bad one" not let through by this sort of process, how many other "good ones" look at it and say "no thanks"? How many hear about this sort of hazing and are dissuaded from applying in the first place? How many experience it one too many times and just quit the industry altogether? How many of those "bad ones" are even objectively bad, and not just having a bad day or intimidated by a process rife with both intentional and unintentional hostility? In other words: are we actually assessing what we claim to assess with _any_ predictive accuracy, and is the collateral damage to company reputation and the pool of available candidates - a damage often hidden to the individual companies that impose this process - even worth it?
I think it goes far beyond that. I'd bet dollars to donuts that you will find both protected and unprotected groups over represented in the false negative pile. Do women have more test anxiety then men? If so, guess what your process is selecting for. Do minorities have more self doubt than majorities. Same thing. And so on.
And that doesn't address the file drawer effect. I'm 54. I can code a binary tree, hash table or what have you, if I have to, but I am not as practiced as somebody fresh out of school, because that heavy lifting is done by libraries, and I'm busy contributing original mathematical algorithms that no one ever asks about because they don't have the background to understand the explanation. So I don't go on FAANG type interviews. I know I will fail, and if I don't my offer will be predicated on that apparently lower performance. At best I will have an utterly miserable experience. So I self select myself out, mostly on age.
> I can code a binary tree, hash table or what have you, if I have to, but I am not as practiced as somebody fresh out of school, because that heavy lifting is done by libraries, and I'm busy contributing original mathematical algorithms that no one ever asks about because they don't have the background to understand the explanation.
This made me chuckle, because it's absolutely how it is.
Some other comments here talk about how nobody creates new algorithms these days unless they are a researcher. But it's not true at all! Like you I'm creating new algorithms and other tricky techniques all the time, but I'm not fresh on the stuff I learned at school... or so I thought.
I have been really surprised to find some screening interviews recently asked me shockingly trivial questions. So simple that I stumbled over myself trying to simplify the answers, thinking "I know too much about this topic and need to keep it simple", and "can these questions really distinguish candidates?".
I did the TripleByte online test recently and found the questions much simpler than I expected, including those in languages I've never seen before. That is not TripleByte's reputation. I see people writing about how difficult they found the questions. (Admission: I didn't score all 5s, but I can't figure out why unless it's timing as I think I answered them all correctly.)
So I'm thinking, perhaps it's not so bad, people just make it sound bad because there's a wide variation in people's knowledge, abilities and expectations.
If you are thinking you might apply for something like a FAANG or other hard-reputation company, and feeling put off by the horror stories, I would say, just take a look at the old stuff a bit for a refresh, then give it a try and you might be pleasantly surprised to find their reputation is because people less skilled than yourself found it hard. Their "hard" might not be hard for you.
You'll probably still fail the interview if it's a FAANG because they are so selective, but I would bet my dollars to donuts that it would be more refreshing than miserable if you're not attached to passing.
I know your point isn't about yourself, it's about bias in hiring, including bias due to perception by the candidates, but I wanted to address that side point about feeling there's no point applying. That sounds like anxiety to me. (I have it too, I'm trying to get over it.)
>And that doesn't address the file drawer effect. I'm 54. I can code a binary tree, hash table or what have you, if I have to, but I am not as practiced as somebody fresh out of school, because that heavy lifting is done by libraries, and I'm busy contributing original mathematical algorithms that no one ever asks about because they don't have the background to understand the explanation.
Ooohhhh this is frustrating. Nothing is more frustrating than telling an interviewer about something cool you've done, and realizing they don't understand, but also don't care.
Yes, I remember one guy asking what I would when a page was going slow. I explained how I would work backwards checking the network tab in the browser, make sure it was the endpoint that was the bottleneck, blah blah blah to the database. He just wanted me to say "use explain" - which i would have got to if he had bothered listening a couple more minutes. Then he wanted me to do a "challenge" that was expected to take around 10 hours. No thanks, you didn't convince me I want to work for you.
But they're not aware that the filter is just anxiety.
Google is basically using anxiety to filter good candidates and eliminate false positives which works in a sense but is still highly illogical.
Why not use a technical filter to filter for technical candidates? Anxiety seems like a pointless filter.... how does that even eliminate false positives?
it would seem it might be 'letting in' a whole load of people who don't have appropriate anxiety responses. There are some situations where anxiety is perfectly normal, and perhaps even useful, but if you screen out people who have normal anxiety, what impact does that have on your company operations and culture?
I'm a pretty anxious person, so much so that I've pretty much retired instead of doing anymore technical interviews. I had a discussion with a very anxious, but brilliant software developer a few years back and we came to the conclusion that as long as we don't let our anxiety get too far out of hand it's actually kind of a superpower in the job setting. That's because that niggling anxiety you get in the back of your head as you're coding generally makes you more careful about how you're designing and testing your code. You're more careful about security, safety and correctness. Whenever I get anxious while coding I stop and ask myself if maybe it's a message that I need to listen to - maybe it's trying to tell me to tread carefully because I'm entering an area that's potentially problematic.
People without that niggling sense of anxiety always in the background, the folks who are easily going to ace the programming interview because their anxiety levels are so low, those folks, I theorize, are potentially not going to be so careful. Now you could argue that that's a plus in many situations - a startup that needs to get code out the door right away, for example. But it really depends on the domain. For critical systems in applications like healthcare, avionics or robotic control I think the anxious coder is the one you want.
Companies that completely weed out the anxious programmers, as you imply, will have a different culture with perhaps too much emphasis on risky behavior.
> But they're not aware that the filter is just anxiety.
Could this be deliberate? As working with people with anxiety problems is often a pain in the ass as they won't report problems for fear of seeming stupid or ask for help.
Confident people are far easier to work on a team with.
This is essentially the point of a lot of hiring and performance evaluation theory.
E.g. it's acceptable (but not ideal) not to promote talented commanders. It's catastrophic to promote someone to General who isn't ready or is unsuited.
Software engineers are not commanders or generals and it is NOT difficult to fire someone in the United States of America. Everyone in this industry has a at-will contract.
However, high rates of employees getting fired is bad for culture. People are always anxious about their jobs - if they see a few colleagues fired for nonperformance, a number of them will be driven to anxiety. (I am one of these people, and being anxious about job security ironically makes me much worse at my job)
One of the things I've liked about freelancing/contracting is that I know I'm going to get "fired" (we call it "successful completion of the project" but its the same thing, just that they would like to have me work for them again). And since it happens on a regular basis, I also am practiced in finding a new job and I know about how long it will take and what types of prospects to look for. It's really reduced job anxiety for me, although I never had too much.
Although as a counterpoint, it's also easier to get work, because part of the value I'm providing is that you "fire" me whenever you want and no hard feelings. So nobody does "leetcode interviews", because it's not like we're getting married, like an employee. So there's much lower risk to hiring someone, because a bad hire doesn't infect anything, because you expected it to be temporary in the first place.
Right but I also do think that FAANG is over-estimating how many of and how bad these "bad apples" aka. slighly above average developers would be and how terribly difficult all the work they do is.
When you have your pick of the bunch, of course you're going to look at slightly above average as "bad".
I'm not sure how much engineer skill matters though. One slightly above engineer might be fine. But if half your org is made up of slightly above average engineers, I feel like there will be a knock-on effect.
I don't know maybe my view of slightly above average is inflated but I think of that bunch (which I might be a part of) as being easily pulled in by good technical leadership. If only to make their life ultimately easier / less painful. You don't need 60-70% amazing engineers to do that. But I guess they can do whatever they want. They have infinite money and unfortunately a good reputation (in many cases unwarranted). They've become like the Harvard or Yale of tech. Oh you went to Google, great come on in and join us.
And yet, time and time again we see that Generals promoted during peace-time rarely have the skills necessary to lead men under intense combat conditions. The best generals are identified on the battlefield.
Coming from a military background, I can confidently say that promotions at that level are more the end of a political process than a true assessment of skills...
