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Ask HN: you want HOW much for the design?
49 points by flipacoin on March 20, 2011 | hide | past | favorite | 53 comments
I'm due to quit my job this week to work full-time on my startup. I've done much of the back end work over the past year in my free time but I'll need help with the front end.

It's a pretty standard web app focused on a narrow vertical in the cargo industry. I've contacted several designers I found on dribbble /sortfolio and received quotes between $50 and $120 per hour with estimates of between 20 and 40 hours per page. That would make the cheapest page $1000. Let's say I need 10 pages for the web app (which I could then use as templates for other pages). I'm looking at a minimum of $10000 and probably much more.

I've read many many posts about how boot-strapped businesses got off the ground and to my knowledge I've never heard of any startup paying such a high amount for design, so how did they do it? Are there places besides sortfolio and dribbble that I can find designers?




I've used a few approaches:

1) BCC (old design): Grabbed an appropriate template from oswd.org. Chopped the heck out of it. Cost: free, but spent quite a bit of time. Quality: it didn't scare people?

2) BCC (new design): Found a very talented young lady in India on elance. Cost: a few hundred bucks. Quality: I won't win most-beautiful-site-ever awards, but the cost performance was outstanding.

3) Appointment Reminder: WooThemes template, lightly customized with a logo from 99Designs and a central image that a designer friend made for me. Cost: $169 + what the designer charged. He asked me not to say, but suffice it to say that it is much less than you are contemplating. Quality: The app itself doesn't knock socks off, but the front page does.

I don't begrudge the high-end designers their fees -- some of them produce very nice work indeed. However, I don't know if that's necessarily the best place to put $10k to work for a B2B startup.


Ever since I read a comment by patio11 a few months ago, I've converted completely to buying ready-made themes for WordPress whenever I want to put up a "sales" site.

Getting 3 themes at WooThemes will run you about $70. Those three themes each come in several color variations too. That means the next 3 times you decide to throw up a website, it should take almost no work (design-wise). WooThemes is really easy to use and customize, and they have good documentation.

This makes throwing up a sales site really easy. Effectively, any time I create an app, the first step is to put up a WordPress site with a WooThemes theme, build up the copy/etc, then copy the design for use in the actual application.

Note: I usually host my sales site on www.MyAppName.com, and have my "actual" application (a Django app) running from a subdomain like app.MyAppName.com. This way, I host my WordPress sales site completely separately from my app, which is easier for me to manage and to not screw up.


WordPress themes are not just for sales sites. The "Admin Templates" on Theme Forest [1] offer some great options for B2B applications.

[1] http://themeforest.net/category/site-templates/admin-templat...


The "Admin" templates on Theme Forest are really kind of blowing my mind right now. Every front-end-challenged web app developer on HN should know about this.

Preemptively: so what if every app that uses these look the same? They'll all look similarly competent. Most native apps look more alike than different, too.

This is crazy awesome. Thanks for showing this to me.

PS: if you read the comments on the Adminaca theme --- which is LUDICROUSLY AMAZING --- you will find a guy complaining that the price got jacked up... from $12 to $20. If ever you needed a parable exhorting you not to design products for the kinds of people who use ThemeForest...


I use these for the guts of AR, too. $15, shaved a month off my schedule, and since it came in eight colors I got one feature bullet for free.


WOW!

If anyone hasn't seen these, seriously, check them out.

I've used Theme Forest themes before for sales sites, but never found great themes for a web app. These are definitely going to the top of my list for the next time I need to build something.


I posted a stand-alone follow-up post to this comment:

Read: http://geekfactor.charrington.com/2011/03/use-admin-template...

Discuss: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2347559


thanks for this. I think I just saved myself several thousand dollars. Some of those themes are as good as anything on dribbble or sortfolio.

Looks like off-the-shelf + customisation is the way to go. Thanks everyone!


I'm a designer and wordpress hacker. I tried WooThemes on a project recently, in an effort to save time and money for the client. They're great if you're willing to totally sacrifice to the design in the theme. But once you want to start customizing, they can become painful quickly.


20 to 40 hours per page? That absolutely baffles me. I used to freelance design, was charging $100+ per hour, but that's based on the fact that a 1 page website would be around $1000 (10 or so hours to nail down a wireframe/design/build the CSS framework) then 4 or so hours per page after, depending on how intense they are.

I'm not a super duper awesome designer though, but 20-40 hours per page seems absolutely ridiculous.

As for finding a designer, I know of people who ping startups and ask them who did their websites, then if they used a freelancer, they'd set up an intro. Perhaps try that, and you'll reach designers more used to working with cash-strapped startups.


You can chew an arbitrarily large amount of time at a large corporation if your decision making process requires more than one signature. A high end bespoke firm builds this into all estimates.

*That's great Lime, but does it really connect with the marketing message? Maybe if you added a bit more "pop" to it. Also, wouldn't it be better if it were teal?"


I'm lucky that all of my clients have been startups or individuals. Looks like the OP needs to go for designers more accustomed to this, rather than high-end firms.

(My last salaried job: "Why is there so much space left empty? We can fit a ton more information above the fold if we fill it up." ...never, ever, working at a place like that again.)


> *That's great Lime, but does it really connect with the marketing message? Maybe if you added a bit more "pop" to it. Also, wouldn't it be better if it were teal?"

For an explanation of "pop", see:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell


Another idea: Can you scrounge up a design on your own? Yes, it won't be awesome/perfect/high-converting (for now), but you'll get your app out and eyes looking at it before worrying about the perfect design. After it's launched, you can start iterating on the design on your own, as well as worrying about getting a professional designer. Whatever you have to do to launch quickly, imho.


Speaking as a designer, it's simply a case of you get what you pay for. The designers on dribbble are very very high quality, best of the best, well-known names in the industry, so there is a reason why they charge that much. If you can't pay their rate, you aren't their type of client. Besides, I wouldn't start there if you are just looking to get something up. Themeforest or WooThemes is a good option, you can get someone (or yourself) to do minor modifications the psd files to suit you.

My own rate is $80/hr and depending on the job one page usually takes me around 8-10 hours. Don't underestimate the power of UI design...you are looking for conversions, after all. It helps, too, if you do a little research on why and how good design works in your favor. Having that knowledge will give you leverage and prevent you from being overcharged for sub-par work. Best of luck.

http://forrst.me/zhanna/posts


You're asking for bespoke work. This is essentially the same as wondering why a tailored suit costs so much more than the 3-for-$10 t-shirts at Walmart.

First, figure out if you want or need bespoke before you commit to a price.


Paying $10,000 for design work at early stage is lunacy. I solved the problem by:

1) Reading the first 100 pages of the Non-Designers Design Book (http://www.amazon.com/Non-Designers-Design-Book-Typographic-...).

2) Using CSS grid systems (e.g. Blueprint) and CSS abstractions (such as Compass) to ease the design process and minimize cross browser tomfoolery.

3) Visiting http://www.smashingmagazine.com/ and browsing lists such as "best minimal designs" and then slicing and dicing parts from my favorite pages together.

End results: www.bolivianexpress.org, www.oxbridgenotes.co.uk

Your end result might not win any awards, but hey you'll have $10,000 more in the bank.


I think it's important to define exactly what you want from the designer. If you're looking for a graphic artist to come in and provide a slick look and overall template for the site, my guess is you could get by with just a few templates to build out from. 20 to 40 hours per page for that kind of work strikes me as excessive.

However, if you're looking for a user interface designer who will put some real consideration into what goes inside the template shell ("epicenter design" as coined by 37signals), then assume more hours. Ideally this person would want to be there to adjust or tweak elements or flows as you analyze your traffic and success rates.

I have a client who usually knows exactly what he wants from a content/layout/interface standpoint, so my work becomes more graphic production. This generally takes under 3 hours per page. But, we've built up a visual vocabulary for the site over a number of months.

Other projects that are starting from scratch may take your aforementioned 20-40 hours up front to arrive at an agreeable overall design direction. But it usually shouldn't take that much time per page.


What do you think the google front page is worth? Do you think it took a long time to design it?

What I am saying is that you shouldn't look at what a page cost you but how much it's worth to you.

If you want cheap, don't go to dribble go to 99designs.

There you can find plenty of mediocre and sometimes good designers who will do it for much less.


These days, few things beat WordPress as a platform to build a Webiste - quickly. ElegantThemes.com has a suite of templates for $39. StudioPress and WooThemes are a bit more expensive, but well worth it. You get a wide range of designs, and a day of hacking the CSS will get you a custom design. 99Designs is great for finding logo designers - had great success with that. oDesk and vWorker (formerly RentACoder) are also good sources - though quality may be a bit hit or miss. I'd use WordPress, buy a stock template, and customize it to my needs.


What might also work is this, from NYU when I was looking for a designer:

Thank you for contacting the Computer Science Department of the Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences at New York University. In order to have the position posted, please follow the instructions below…

1. Visit the Wasserman Center website at: www.nyu.edu/careerdevelopment/employers/emp_list_your.php <http://www.nyu.edu/careerdevelopment/employers/emp_list_your...; and post the job at the Wasserman Center for Career Development. Be sure to include the following: Job Description, Skills Sought, Minimum GPA (if required), Major (if required), Hours, Pay/Compensation & Duration of Position

This free, quick, and easy process will generate a reference number.

2. Once you have your reference number, e-mail me at kumar@cs.nyu.edu and be sure to include the following: a. The Wasserman Center reference number for the position b. The Job Description or information about the job c. Contact information for the position

3. After you e-mail me the above information , the Computer Science Department will send an e-mail to all CS Majors & Minors.

--- That is the standard process for NYU. I would suggest checking out the colleges first - most often there are great designers who are still in school and need references.


So, you're saying...what? I want to guess that you posted an ad at NYU.


I've worked with a lot of designers and have found a dramatic disconnect between the value they provide and the cost of their services. It is staggering.

Be sure to check around for services like 99designs.com (I'm sure there are others - try a search on HN too).

Also remember that there are tons of graphic designers, at least here in Houston. The same guy being billed out at $140 an hour might also work at the Kinkos around the corner. You might even try to hire an independent at $30/hr at your local co-working spaces, AIGA meetings, Open Coffee, etc...

You get cleaned out paying for the whole project by the hour, and a per-project quote is likely to be made-up nonsense. Just pay hourly, but pick a day of the week to review progress and cut a check. Be ruthless and switch designers if you don't like how it is going.


I really like the pay as you go idea. I guess that is agile design outsourcing? I used to attend the graduation portfolio shows at the Art Institute (of Houston, it's a chain), looking for designers that I might work with for web sites. It was depressing for the following reason: On one floor were the graphics arts people, with a stunning visual sense, expressed in physical things like little products, books, magazines, posters, typography, etc., etc. On the other floor were the multimedia designers, whose program required them to do something in every type of techie design there is: Flash, InDesign, videos, web sites, etc., etc. I didn't see the well developed visual sense in the multimedia work, and I'd ask the graphics arts people if they did web sites: "Oh yeah, I did one once." When will these schools wake up and pair the visual sense with the techie in one student? Maybe they should have students work as a team, one techie and one visual. If they could develop these skills sets in one student, we'd see designs like those in CSS Zen Garden.

By the way, what designers have you worked with in Houston? (contact info in my profile)


Hi Lester - good to see you on HN. I'll drop you a line sometime... I still have your card someplace.


My partners a pretty top notch designer, do you have an email that I could put you in touch with? He's currently building a portfolio . I imagine his quote would be more in lieu with what limedaring said.


I suspect that the cargo industry less sensitive to the quality of design of the app than many others. Chances are you need a good enough designer rather than a good one.

20 - 40 hours worth of billable work per page does make more sense if the contractors are planning on working with you testing different variants of the pages to see which ones convert the best over the course of a year. That's something that can provide a demonstrable financial return (increase in conversion and retention of customers)


I can see 20-40 hours per work for a specific page, but not <b>per</b> page. Landing page? Sure, your conversions may hang on it. Store view? No problem, most stores are ugly and hard to use, so it pays to put some extra effort in. $10,000 for a static Contact/Map page just because it's a separate link? No way.


As someone who is a designer/developer who also runs several successful e-commerce websites here are my 2 cents:

Stay away from sites like 99designs and other low budget crowdsourcing sites as they only attract low quality designers who tend not to know much about UX, conversions, usability, perception, etc.

If this project is serious enough for you to quit your job then you really need to make sure your design is going to be flexible enough to accommodate all of the changes you may need to make in order to increase conversions as you begin to acquire customers and analyze data.

Here is my suggestion: the designer should create a design that fits within a CSS grid framework like 960.gs, Blueprint or the Less Framework. The designer can also create their own grid and you can generate the CSS using several online CSS grid builders like the 1kb grid.

Then figure out how many UNIQUE page templates you will actually need (things like a home page, a pricing page, a general inner page that can also double as a blog page - if designed correctly, and a signup page - it's very important to have a flexible signup page that you can easily make changes to).

Most likely you will be re-using elements like headings, paragraphs, sidebars, menus, buttons and lists throughout your site. You can use the CSS grid to build multiple layouts for different page templates or sub-page templates and then reuse the elements and their styles for the content of those pages.

If you need help get in touch. We do a lot of design and dev work for startups and this sort of thing (flexible interface design at a reasonable price) is something we do all the time. Heck, we may even build the templates using HTML and CSS right in the browser and skip the PSD files altogether!

My website is on my profile page. Our pricing is very reasonable and we're located in the U.S. - Detroit, Michigan to be exact.


I am not much of a designer myself too.

What I did was to get a WordPress theme from ThemeForest (http://themeforest.net) for my project's main web page, I just added pages for login, register and pricing.

After login, my users will be redirected to my app's UI. Downside is that I have to update WordPress ever once awhile.


Those designers are for the artist socialite crowd who are willing to pay their fees. You can get it done much, much cheaper and get 80-90% of the quality of a top shelf designer.

True story: At a startup a couple years back, we asked for two quotes for 4 pages. One was $15,000, one was $1,500. Sure, the expensive guy was better, but not that much better.


My designer is inexpensive enough that I now budget professional design in as one of the first steps in all my projects, whether hobby or otherwise. Then again, I'm pretty handy with front-end and CSS, so that allows me to save a lot of money; their final output is simply a PSD file and I take it from there. The design part is usually in the $500-$1000 range. Then it takes me maybe 10-20 hours to slice and implement for an entire site (not counting full IE6/IE7 tweaking, though it will be at least usable and decent).

Now, I'm sure $10k will net you a $10k design, but it should be an investment, not an expense. In other words, if a $10k design will not generate more than $10k in additional revenue, don't do it.

I met my designer by networking and asking others who they use and recommend. If you'd like to ping me, I can connect you with my designer.


I've actually been running into a similar issue. I've been trying to find a solid user interface designer to help us design our analytics app for the past couple of months.

While our budget is probably more flexible then yours is, my favorite choices whom I have approached all express interest in our project but are usually unavailable for several months due to existing obligations.

Additionally, each one has told me that 3 or 4 screens is going to produce a month or so turn around time to go from wire frames to PSD, let alone coding of the interface.

The other issue is the level of interaction that we are looking to put into maybe 3 or 4 screens total. It makes things difficult to simply describe to a straight up graphic designer.

If anyone has a referral for an available UI person that has a fetish for analytics dashboards feel free to point me in their direction.


We might be able to help you.

Senior Axure Experience; Microsoft Business Intelligence Certification; Senior jQUERY HighCharts Experience

Let me know.

Josh


I found a great designer on Dribbble and hired him to produce the front page for my app, just the mockup in AI for about $500. I then sliced/coded this up and used all the custom design elements to make more pages. There's a post on my blog if your interested.


Can you post a link to your blog post?


This might? be his blog: http://andrewseddon.com/


I got a local company to do PSD mockups instead going all the way to HTML. They redid my logo and gave a facelift to two of my pages for not a whole lot more than what you're quoting for one page.

With the PSD I sent it off to a chop shop ($150) and did my own coding to turn it into a Wordpress theme for the main page, and then applied the application template to the rest of my pages.

Most of the work was in the layout, so once one page was done, all the rest were pretty easy.

If you're willing to do a lot of the grunt work yourself, pick a couple of pages from your app and find someone to give them an update. If they're not doing HTML and the copy and menus are already set, it shouldn't take them a whole lot of time.


I have worked in a few environments that offered products like yours. Visual design has never, ever been a concern of the customers.

Get something like this http://www.webgurus.biz/adminskin2/dashboard.html and focus on your UX and value proposition.

If you find it necessary to redesign do it v2.0 when you have paying customers and let them have a say in what the design should be.

I know there are a lot of template haters on this board and it baffles me because hiring a professional design team to get your initial product out goes against some of the core values this community is built on.


In that amount of time you can learn HTML/CSS on your own and get a design you really want out of it, while saving $1k+. I know doing a startup full-time means you're probably also bootstrapping. If you think you can put backend dev on hold for a week to build up the front end yourself, here's a great link that helped me: http://htmldog.com/

And as a side note, you may want to be finding a cofounder anyway (single-manned companies are hard pressed to succeed), and a frontend dev would be a great balance to your backend work.


The OP isn't talking about slinging together some HTML. He's talking about hiring a graphic artist.


Supply and demand. Senior designers only have so many hours to give, and the smart ones raise their rates as quickly as possible when they realize the high-budget clients are the best path to wealth and a sane schedule.

For a brand-new startup, your design is going to evolve quickly. I'd go cheap-and-quick (99Designs, TemplateMonster.com, etc). Hopefully someone on your core team is solid enough at design that you can wrangle the theme that you buy... Your design should be evolving every day.


So, I'm working on a web design tool called jMockups and one of the routes I'm considering taking is focusing on the ability to export your designs to HTML/CSS. You could then visually design your site from scratch or start with a template that we provide. Either way, when you're done you click Export and it produces all your HTML and CSS.

Since this is very much on-topic, how do you all feel about the idea? Would you use a WYSIWYG web design tool? And if not, why not?


I see a few posts here saying how outrageous a minimum budget of $10,000 is, so I'd like to add some other perspective. To me it sounds about right, depending on what you are asking for.

Of course, we all have very little information about your request for quotes, so we're all just guessing. All we know is that you "need help with the front-end" on a "pretty standard web app", which really could mean anything.

You might need some or all of: - coming soon page, home page, signup page, faq, about-us, policy pages, testimonials, etc - plan descriptions, comparison page - system settings, notification settings, etc - password reset form, new email form - billing updates, payment profiles, billing history - a whole set of email designs - some kind of viral marketing component, like referral rewards - methods to control growth to a level you can handle - a custom front-end for whatever value you provide (the actual app) - a dozen other things specific to the cargo industry - inline notifications - all the up-to-date and greatest design guidelines etc.

You may have provided a well thought-out, detailed RFQ with specs, but if you did not and need your designer to do needs assessments, create a series of unique pages for different functions, cut it up, and code it, then you might be getting a fantastic deal at $10K. If you didn't provide detailed specs, the designers might also think you don't know what you need and may be checking if you are serious before spending a lot of time trying to win a project that will likely need a lot of extra communication and planning work.

I do that when regular people (people who don't follow HN) come to me with great ideas for web apps, like a friend who wanted to create a simpler version of quicken online. My stock quote is $5 million dollars, but of course, that includes the front-end, back-end, client support systems, and marketing components as well.

Seriously though, creating a great custom UI for an admin is hard work, and even the prettiest looking designs might have loads of subtle road blocks to a good user experience, which can be a component towards the success and failure of your startup. Working on a tight budget and/or time-line increases the chances of user roadblocks, while an experienced designer with a history of creating custom solutions for different clients is more likely to create something users will enjoy and want to use. Give them a good working budget so they can fully devote their creative juice to you for a few months, learn your goals, and create the best solution.

Also, a couple of simple pages can make a huge difference in how valuable your application is to your clients or end users. One project I am working on requires a 'simple' admin for adding, editing, and deleting produce for a grocery store. The client asked me to reproduce the design modal he knew and understood from his 10 year old admin (which I created), which is the same thing he asked for and got from the other new designer, who I replaced.

In discussing his business, I found out he spends 3 hours a week maintaining 1,000 items of produce. The thing is, he's also adding 10x the inventory, which turns 3 hours of work a week into 30 hours. The requested design unknowingly required a full-time staff person, which he couldn't afford, which means he wouldn't have met his goal of adding the new inventory. Instead, I spent much more time designing a single page admin that will let him maintain his inventory in a small fraction of the time and all his goals get met - because of the design.

Sites like Themeforest can't make decisions like that, but are a great starting point for UI prettiness. How many design issues are there like that in this project? Nobody really knows know until they interview you, so we don't have a clue if $10,000 is a good deal or not, or if it is not nearly enough.

While they might be priced out of range of some boot-strapping startups, a really good designer brings a great deal of value to your project. If you can afford it, it's worth it.

Good luck on your startup!

John.


20-40 hours per page is ridiculously high. They must be incredibly slow and it makes my doubt their design skill.

To design a web app is incredibly easy because there is no marketing element to it--it is all about functionality. If you are bring on a designer to do work on a webapp his job should be to make it pretty, but also to make it usable. If all you are getting is better color selection then you are wasting your money.


That includes an estimate of the time spent negotiating with the client. I worked as an architectural draftsman for a while, my employer spent at least twice as much time (usually more) negotiating with clients and getting their approvals than I spent producing the drawings. And most businesses are worse, because more people and approvals are involved.


I use this guy, simple flat $500 per page, if you have 10 pages he'll probably cut you a deal, especially if you pay upfront, or if the other pages are simple variations of the original.

http://highendcustomlayouts.com/images/thumbnails.php?album=...


I just read about these guys http://www.getmefast.com (from the blog of http://www.freshdesk.com/) -- they're in India but seems to have done a ton of work


If you're still looking for a reasonably priced designer lets chat :) http://kreativehq.com is my portfolio. Use the contact form and I'll send some more current work as well.


I know a designer with stellar jQUERY, CSS, and HTML skills; $20 per hour; at most 10 hours per page; design and development. Let me know if you want to reach-out and talk to him. Josh


I'm an interface designer and can tell you right now that I'd do it for much less than $10,000.

Email me if you want to discuss: nola1919@gmail.com


The pricing you were quoted depends on what requirements you gave and whom you contacted. It can vary greatly.


flipacoin: what is your email so we can contact you to help?




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