I think the two are simply illusions. Humans think of as free will and similar to thinking of having a consciousness in reality is just illusions at play. We can assume consciousness is similar to an outside external force that ends up with causing an outcome. Similar as a domino being interacting with another domino and resulting in a cause & effect outcome. I don't think humans are responsible at all for anything of their own doing. Some things are in fact impossible and even with how hard we desire them.
My previous comment is suggesting that it would be interesting to learn if somehow the processing of thinking isn't happening purely in the brain. Such as if we could revert all neurons back to a previous state of time before external forces changed everything up. I like to theorize about the universe having some state that's stored somewhere outside of what's physically observable.
I've never understood this line of reasoning. If consciousness, in the sense of subjective experience ("qualia"), is an illusion, that what is being fooled? It seems to just push the question one level deeper without providing any insight.
It's our understanding/perception that is fooled. We feel like we are the conscious authors of our thoughts when really they are summoned from within and calculated for us. We feel like pilots but really we're riding coach.
I feel like there is a chance I'm misinterpreting your question though, apologies if so.
I think you're combining consciousness and free will into a single thing. Consciousness lies in the subjective experience (in fact it seems like you allow for perception); whether you have any agency or are just a subjective experiencer "riding along" with deterministic fate is a separate matter.
You make a good point. As for me, its really hard to think of consciousness as real because it's similar to other things I'm forced to observe while previously I used to think I was somewhat in control. So I think thoughts or awareness are just like external forces making whatever happens from all the previous forces.
I guess I'm wondering if we would still think we're conscious if we someday prove we're no different than a character in the video game the Sims. We currently think of the characters in the Sims as not having a conscious. But I guess we could be wrong if electrons somehow had a state being received and from everything that's happening in the universe for making it experience similar to what we do. Thus, the theory of panpsychism. But to me that just seems like consciousness is an illusion in the traditional sense because awareness has always felt like requiring more than a video game character being controlled by external forces.
Consciousness, at least to each of us individually, is demonstrably real.
Consciousness is a perception and perceptions are not illusions, even if we misunderstand what we are perceiving.
If I send you a message that says "I am not sending you a message", we can argue about what it means, but not that you got a message from me, no matter how much you trust (Edit: Or distrust) what I say to you.
Even if you don't believe you have consciousness, if you perceive you disbelieve in consciousness, then too bad: you have it.
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In contrast, free will is a completely different and easily explained kind of phenomena.
Questions and opinions about free will predate any discovery of evidence for such a thing. (There is no evidence yet!) That is a critical clue.
Free will is just a typical case of motivated reasoning. We believe some things without any rational support because they make us feel better about ourselves, the universe, allow us to focus on more practical matters. Not because they are true, or even a valid concept.
But understanding that free will is a product of motivated reasoning suggests that explaining free will is just evidence-free motivated reasoning will not settle the issue. Because people will continue to be motivated to want it to be true, they will find it hard to simply label it as self-serving, often-useful irrationality and move on.
That’s just an illusion to me. The word conscious is a subjective construct and awareness has always been associated with it as a necessary role in expressing consciousness exists. Well if a person is just metaphorically a domino like everything encompassing his/her existence and there can be conflict between the parties to a significant degree. Then it’s arguable that neither person is truly aware but just similar to a character in a cutscene of a video game. All of us just acting out without any control to what the story entails. Similar for the discussion at hand. I think it’s a philosophical issue and where human language attempts at making it seem more possible than it being an illusion but is in fact not the case.
Your domino reference suggests you continue to confuse free will with consciousness.
Free will is the idea that out minds might somehow have a self-generated non-deterministic ability to make decisions that is unmoored or constrained from causes that others can see or investigate.
This is either trivially not true (as in the "many worlds" deterministic interpretation of quantum mechanics), or trivially true in a weak sense (quantum mechanics non-deterministic interpretation) i.e. our decisions are controlled by quantum randomness, but not by any special property of our minds.
There is zero evidence of "free will" and yet people have conjectured they might have it for as long as we have records of people's introspection. This phenomenon is easy to understand: it is a typical example of motivated reasoning. We have a biological imperative to desire freedom of action and though. "Free will" is the ultimate fantasy of freedom of thought. So regardless of all lack of evidence, people will be drawn to, and depending on rationality, adopt a strong belief, in their "free will".
So we can dispense with that self-motivated "illusion" based on good science.
In that sense, there is an illusion as you say.
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That leaves your point (if this rephrasing of your point is acceptable to you) that self-awareness in a functional sense does not necessarily imply an entity has the qualia of self-awareness, i.e. consciousness.
I also agree with that. Somewhere between us and a deck of cards saying things like "I am conscious" is a mechanism we could build that had some level of self-referential ability, could say things to you or me that looked like consciousness to us, but which didn't really understand itself. And therefore could not actually be conscious.
We can agree that their can be an illusion of consciousness. But note the illusion is to external observers. The limited entity itself has no subjective awareness of the illusion or anything else.
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Which is why consciousness cannot be an illusion to an entity that experiences it. It is one of the very few (the only?) completely direct experience we have, with no intermediary.
If you have the qualia of self-awareness, then you have it. There is no illusion of having it. If you don't have consciousness, you cannot experience the qualia of an illusion of consciousness.
I appreciate you writing all that for me. I'm now uncertain where I fall with my position. I don't really think I'm aware because everything is predetermined and even if randomness is thrown into the equation it doesn't matter. I know you think I'm mixing free will with consciousness but I just think a person cannot be aware if they're always going to process a certain way because of the starting point of the universe. It just seems like I'm a sim in a video game. Where everything is completely programmed out for whatever to happen and I cannot say that either a character in a video game or I, would be resembling what consciousness means for me. In any case I'm undecided now.
Thanks for your posts abellerose, I am in agreeance and find this topic generally interesting. Free will hasn't been defined in such a way I think it can even exist (that I've seen or understood).
Do you have any thoughts on how this impacts the way you see the world? Personally I find it something I'm almost keeping 'off to one side', and am aware of, but in the 'heat of the moment' I still feel like I'm an independent agent. Maybe it speaks to the self-deception at the core of every human.
Sam Harris (while being a figure I can take or leave) raised what seems a good point; that our penal systems should be therefore 100% geared around rehabilitation, not punishment.
Do you think there are other ways we can map this onto daily life?
I try and never be too certain of anything, given the veritable ocean of cognitive biases we have to fight against.. but this is a trait I developed before discovering the argument of determinism vs non-determinism.
I'm happy to encounter someone interested in the topic like I am. I'll further expand some of my thoughts in connection to the topic. I'm very interested in your own thoughts on the topic as well. I hope when writing about this topic that I further learn something.
As for me, understanding free will being an illusion, eventually made me realize a few things. Yes, some things are simply impossible. Not even a traditional concept of God, could have or make free will be real and knowing so is from understanding the logic of cause & effect. Not even true randomness can make us be free agents. Although I think randomness is an impossibility because there's always a cause and that can be passionately debated for the theory of quantum physics in our universe. But randomness doesn't matter in regard to free will being an illusion.
Furthermore, the idea of free will being an illusion made it simpler for me personally to understand harder concepts than before. How humans created the concept of good & evil, but we simply apply it incorrectly and to what we observe throughout our existence. Nothing is evil or good in the traditional sense and when we realize neither us or even a traditional God should be labeled responsible for all the wicked or good things existing on earth. Free will is an impossibility for God just like humans. My reflection from a mirror has the same control as I do. :)
Similar to how Sam Harris expresses humans shouldn't be responsible.
Thus, the concept confirms for me that everything experienced cannot be perfect from the start. Providing me with wishful thinking that the universe could repeat and where the same conditions that made our life, could happen repeat again & again; with improvements occurring each iteration depending on the starting variables. Maybe like a brute-forcing algorithm. That's the spiritual part I get out of understanding the concept of cause & effect. There's no reason for me to care if free will is an illusion because it has always been and if life doesn't repeat, well I find that more perplexing than the idea of the universe repeating for infinity. In any case, I truly wish society moves towards rehabilitation instead of punishment. I'm agnostic for context and I think life is sacred. But I also think people should be able to commit suicide safely from society allowing it and if they truly suffer.
Now, the concept of rehabilitation being superior makes the most sense if society desires to progress humanity and to the purest essences of equality. The concept of judgement & punishment being a deterrent, is a fallacy, and just a one sided convenience for the privileged. The ones born into a life where they'll never be judged & punished while the misfortunate individuals born into a life where they will eventually commit a crime. They were needing help from the start and were used & thrown away like a piece of trash throughout life. I find the current day justice system similar to the Salem witch trials. I think any hard determinist Judge forced into caring out the justice system of today, simply punishes an individual for the sake of the health of someone harmed and while the one harmed hasn't grasped there isn't free will. Otherwise I think the person harmed would have a tough time placing the blame on anyone or desiring it.
Anyway, I think the knowledge of free will being an illusion is somewhat taboo. It goes against a lot of religious beliefs. I'm not really sure if religion is a good thing that came out of human existence or simply comparable to an illness. A lot of LGBT people have had their life ruined from religious parents and a lot of slavery was justified from religious belief. There are young people being molested by priests. Maybe religion needs to evolve into understanding free will is an illusion?
Lastly, the concept of free will being an illusion may hinder how society functions under capitalism & reward based structure. People might get fed up while knowing they're destined to be modern day slaves compared to the privileged because of their birth and this is only the case if society doesn't adapt to the knowledge being wide spread. Basically, I think current society structure is wrong while knowing everything revolves around who was born into good genetics, financial & family/social status, environmental/education access and who was born misfortunate. While the media showcases the anomalies to delude people into thinking they will eventually get to the top as well.
Nevertheless, I'm a pacifist from the understanding and somewhat grateful it happened. I think the world will eventually adapt when it becomes common knowledge. I personally would have preferred to be born into such a society and instead of the current day one if humans collectively cherish equality above all else. My fear of death is gone as well and I find things more interesting than the past.
My previous comment is suggesting that it would be interesting to learn if somehow the processing of thinking isn't happening purely in the brain. Such as if we could revert all neurons back to a previous state of time before external forces changed everything up. I like to theorize about the universe having some state that's stored somewhere outside of what's physically observable.