> Why? How often the first thing you do is look at the scroll bar and close a document because it's too short or too long?
> If you're gonna read it you'll read it regardless of its length.
Something short, looking remotely interesting, I'll probably read in full. Something long, I'll probably skim to see if there's anything interesting buried in there. If I'm reading it completely, glancing at the scroll bar tells me where I am in the document so it tells me if the document is reaching its conclusion, or perhaps just going on a side note.
If you read a book, don't you first see how thick it is, and while reading sometimes watch how far in the book you are?
>> to know what state we are BEFORE we interact with it
> Why? If you open a new document you'll be at the top.
A bit later, when I have read a page or two, how far have I advanced? How much more is there to come, or not?
> It's almost always immediately obvious that there would be more text.
It's most certainly not always immediately obvious. And even when it is, it is very useful to know how much more text (or other content).
> - There's almost NO case that's ALWAYS improved by having always visible bars.
Perhaps not. But there lots of cases that are almost always improved by proper scroll bars.
> - Hidden bars always save screen space for more content and reduced clutter.
A tiny amount, certainly on today's screens.
> - If you need to see scroll bars, there's an option.
Where? I mean, are we talking about UX design in general, or do you have an explicit implementation in mind where you can optionally enable scroll bars? I don't think I've ever seen such an option, and certainly not easily accessible.
> If I'm reading it completely, glancing at the scroll bar tells me where I am in the document so it tells me if the document is reaching its conclusion, or perhaps just going on a side note.
You'll see the hidden scrollbars when you're reading through something anyway.
> A bit later, when I have read a page or two, how far have I advanced?
You'll see the hidden scrollbars as you scroll through the pages to begin with.
> do you have an explicit implementation in mind where you can optionally enable scroll bars? I don't think I've ever seen such an option, and certainly not easily accessible.
It's right there in Mac general preferences, defaulting to visible if you use a non-Apple mouse.
> Why? How often the first thing you do is look at the scroll bar and close a document because it's too short or too long?
> If you're gonna read it you'll read it regardless of its length.
Something short, looking remotely interesting, I'll probably read in full. Something long, I'll probably skim to see if there's anything interesting buried in there. If I'm reading it completely, glancing at the scroll bar tells me where I am in the document so it tells me if the document is reaching its conclusion, or perhaps just going on a side note.
If you read a book, don't you first see how thick it is, and while reading sometimes watch how far in the book you are?
>> to know what state we are BEFORE we interact with it
> Why? If you open a new document you'll be at the top.
A bit later, when I have read a page or two, how far have I advanced? How much more is there to come, or not?
> It's almost always immediately obvious that there would be more text.
It's most certainly not always immediately obvious. And even when it is, it is very useful to know how much more text (or other content).
> - There's almost NO case that's ALWAYS improved by having always visible bars.
Perhaps not. But there lots of cases that are almost always improved by proper scroll bars.
> - Hidden bars always save screen space for more content and reduced clutter.
A tiny amount, certainly on today's screens.
> - If you need to see scroll bars, there's an option.
Where? I mean, are we talking about UX design in general, or do you have an explicit implementation in mind where you can optionally enable scroll bars? I don't think I've ever seen such an option, and certainly not easily accessible.