> The report’s authors warn that treating the world’s resources as limitless is leading towards global disaster.
This is the same fallacy that lead people to fear “peak oil” every decade for the past 50 years. Nobody treats resources as if they’re limitless. The reason we don’t coat everything in gold is because it’s rare (and thus expensive), leading to producers only using it when it’s absolutely necessary. Wood is abundant (and therefore cheap), so it’s used in everything from packing materials to building houses. If these conditions changed and wood for some reason became rare and expensive, it wouldn’t be used in the same way we use it now. People would choose to build their houses out of a different material, and tree farmers would choose to plant more trees.
The idea that we’re “running out” of resources doesn’t make sense. Resources are and have always been scarce. When something becomes exceedingly rare, people choose to consume less of that resource.
>This is the same fallacy that lead people to fear “peak oil” every decade for the past 50 years
It's not a fallacy that we treat resources as limitless, and neither is peak oil. This or that peak oil announcement might be premature, but oil is limited and not renewable, so peak oil is inevitable long term, period. Already we have started to resort to hacks like fracking and lower EROI oil to get by.
>Nobody treats resources as if they’re limitless.
Plenty do. We consume and build stuff like there's no tomorrow. That we will adjust prices and production when we hit hard limits doesn't mean that we already take those into account and shape our use accordingly (based on actual priorities).
And of course we have tons of local (not overall market) cases where resources are treated like limitless without going into peak oil and such. E.g. a river that a factory uses as a dumping ground until the waters are toxic and everything in it dies is exactly an example of a resource treated as limitless.
As long as X resource is cheap, we use it for whatever BS we make. When it gets rarer and pricier, sure, higher prices will regulate its use towards more serious stuff. But by then we'd already have lost huge, non recoverable, and often non recyclable either, quantities of it to BS uses.
>If these conditions changed and wood for some reason became rare and expensive, it wouldn’t be used in the same way we use it now.
Which is a moot point, if by then we have exhausted say 80% of a resource for the previous frivolous uses, and we still need it for more serious uses going forward.
While we can hit harder limits with some resources, like Helium, I believe most resources are far more fungible and/or replaceable. That's in part why peak oil announcements seem to be habitually premature. Reserves are at a specific price or price range, so if those go up reserves tend to go up too, and the same applies to other resources.
To further complicate things, we can replace oil in different ways depending on cost and alternatives, which also depend on time. Toss in a wide variety of different priorities, and it becomes apparent why many predictions we've made tend to be inaccurate.
Taking things into account and shaping our policies accordingly means making a prediction about future supply. Predictions of impending supply exhaustion have historically had a very, very poor track record. Distrusting them is not a predictive failure, even if they are guaranteed to come true eventually, because timescale matters.
As for "we may find a better use down the road" -- sure, but for the purposes of resource planning, that statement is completely useless. You have to pick a probability, time scale, and value for your position to have meaning from the perspective of resource planning, and not coincidentally those are the exact prerequisites for taking a market position on the subject.
There are many things markets do poorly, but cutting through the bullshit, forcing you to formulate a meaningful position, and rewarding/punishing you appropriately is something they do very well.
GP mentions that "a river that a factory uses as a dumping ground until the waters are toxic and everything in it dies is exactly an example of a resource treated as limitless." In your opinion, is the market properly functioning to correct these behaviors? Where is the market when all the world's trash are getting dumped in our rivers and oceans?
That's an untaxed externality, which is one of the many things that markets do not handle well. There are others.
Here's the difference: the river is not being treated as an unlimited resource, it's being treated as a free resource. Nobody genuinely thinks the river can dilute unlimited toxic waste, but someone does genuinely think they won't be held accountable for killing the fish. In contrast, nobody in the oil business could expect to "get away with" ignoring peak oil, because they could not expect their customers to buy products that they were unable to produce from oil that did not exist.
Markets do not address global warming, but markets do address "peak oil," and the staggeringly bad suggestions that get passed off as wisdom every time people start talking about "peak oil" type problems remind me why we put up with markets in the first place.
>Taking things into account and shaping our policies accordingly means making a prediction about future supply. Predictions of impending supply exhaustion have historically had a very, very poor track record.
"Historically" we have been caring about such things for about one or at best two centuries, most of them with primitive technological means to gauge resources supply, so I'm not so convinced about said "track record".
It's not like we got it wrong for millennia. It's more like some warned ahead of time after we've started looking relatively recently historically, and because they got it wrong, we assume like the people in the boy and the wolf story that no such thing is ever possible (or possible to predict within some accuracy).
First time I seriously started reading about peak oil was in 2006-7. Seemed like everyone online was talking about it with gas prices going up. I started to really worry, was seriously thinking of replacing my car with a moped. Future did seem pretty bleak, it was an attractive theory to consider, seemed to resonate with the facts.
The crack in the dam for me was when I started reading about all the discussions of peak coal decades and decades earlier. Obviously we didn't move off coal in the 1850s-1910s due to mass shortages. So what happened? And how are current arguments for peak oil trying to improve, and avoid the old mistakes?
But the arguments weren't new. They were just the same, "this thing is finite and we're currently using it."
Where do these arguments come from, why are people so passionate about them?
I started to realize humanity has a really strong pessimism bias. I remember making that suggestion to a friend of mine, pumping gas some Saturday. I mentioned that maybe this whole peak oil thing was overblown. And he pointed to the pump and said, "Yeah, but you don't seriously think we're ever going to see gas slip below $4 a gallon again. That's pretty damning evidence right in front of you."
I said I guess not... only for gas to slip to the $2s shortly after and stay there for years. Meanwhile, consumption for vehicles itself seemed to be peaking.[0]
> oil is limited and not renewable, so peak oil is inevitable long term, period
This is the basic, prima facie case for all "peak X" arguments. Seems reasonable. So if there's a fallacy or bias floating around in here, where is it?
I think there are a few missteps. My biggest concern is how we jump from "finite" to "will inevitably be exhausted [on a time horizon that matters]."
There are lots of things that are technically finite but in no practical danger of exhaustion on timescales we should care about.
- There is currently a fixed amount of accessible uranium in the ground. By the time we use it all, the tectonic plates will have shifted such to reveal new deposits, that's the scale we're talking about.
- There's a fixed amount of energy in the moon-Earth orbital system, and tidal power (and to some extent wind power) exhausts some of it every time we use it to generate energy. I'm not worried about the moon crashing into the Earth.
- There are a fixed number of accessible diamonds, but our technology and skill at extracting them keeps outpacing our ability to use them all, so cartels have formed to artificially inflate the price.[1]
- Humanity keeps building new skyscrapers, but there are a fixed number of hectares on which we could build skyscrapers. And yet I'm not worried about South Dakota ever filling up with people and looking anything like Coruscant.
What's missing from the analysis then?
Scale, for one. I was shocked when I first read that we could store a thousand years of all American garbage in a landfill that would be only around 35 miles square, in a country with hundreds of millions of square miles of empty space.[2]
Maybe a bit of calculus as well. To know when a thing will be exhausted, we have to calculate the burn rate, the rate of innovation, and feedback systems like pricing that can alter outcomes. It's not sufficient to just jump to "there's only a fixed amount of X on Earth, therefore, soon no more X." That skips like eight steps in the analysis. Some of these are impossible to precisely estimate, but that's not an excuse for simply omitting any placeholder values from the analysis.
If we look at historical examples of resources that humanity extensively relied on, we find things like animal fats for light, literal horse power for locomotion, wool for clothing. A lot of animal products in that list.
We displaced all those things really rapidly, not because they were exhausted, but because we found something better. Electricity, combustion, cotton. But those aren't one-flip stories. The history of artificial light is a great example, we progressively moved from technology to technology, decreasing the work it takes to artificially light a room by stupendous orders of magnitude from one iteration to the next.[3]
It's reasonable to extrapolate then that we're going to do something similar for oil. But how? Where will these ideas come from? Well, we can already see the seeds planted for that in electrification of vehicles and continuing efficiency gains for renewables. Most of the leaps in efficiencies are black swan events though thta no one saw coming. Other times they're simply dedicated improvements to efficiency through applying existing knowledge, like Borlaug's green revolution in agriculture.[4]
Even though these are unexpected or seem pedestrian at first glance, this class of innovation keeps happening and leading to revolutionary changes. Maybe we'll still use oil for some things, just like we use kerosene and wood fired cooking when camping. It's contribution to humanity is primed to drastically change though, and not because of some apocalyptic moment where we suddenly can't find any more.
> hacks like fracking
Fracking is an interesting test case in the history of oil, not for what it reveals about innovation, but for what it revealed about the abundance of oil. At $4 a gallon, we assumed oil was scarce, that the middle east was running out. At $2 a gallon, well, it gets more complicated. Kleptocratic authoritiarians are indeed struggling to get the same returns they once had. Saudi Arabia has shown it is more than capable of producing at this price. Some analysis suggests Saudi Arabia would be capable of enduring $10 per barrel for extended periods.[5] There is so much easy oil in Saudi Arabia it's pretty unfathomable.
But on the tech more broadly, I worry this is moving the goalposts. The way we avert peak anything is through new technologies. It'd be like saying, "see, we were right to predict peak kerosene--it was only because of the inevitability of peak kerosene society resorted to 'hacks' like the invention of the modern electrical grid!"
I'm pulling a lot here from Jane Brox's history of artificial light, Brilliant, but if you look at other "history of tech" books[7][8][9][10][11] you get the same universal takeaway -- we systemically underestimate the compounding power of human ingenuity, or how massively small innovations will impact the course of things.
In general, reading histories of technology and economics, as well as histories of the claims of peak coal or peak oil, made it generally impossible for me to maintain the pessimistic view.
The famous test of this is the Ehrlich bet.[12] Paul Ehrlich predicted the population boom would make commodities vastly more expensive over a ten year period. He lost the bet. Defenders have quibbled that if he had run it slightly differently, he could have won, that this might be down to timing. But research that bases commodity prices in hours worked to extract or generate, it's far more clear -- the amount of work we're having to do to get access to "finite" commodities is rapidly decreasing over time. How can that be? How does something fixed get steadily cheaper, across all these categories of commodities simultaneously?
The only explanation that fits the facts is that human ingenuity continually outraces scarcity, and that combination makes abundance naturally emerge.[13]
I know most neomalthusians find this... unpersuasive. But hopefully you can admit that it's at least not crazy to think this enduring trend, which persists pretty much everywhere we've measured it, will continue. That maybe this trend won't be suddenly displaced by an admittedly seemingly logical outcome that has simply never actually been observed.
> As long as X resource is cheap, we use it for whatever BS we make. When it gets rarer and pricier, sure, higher prices will regulate its use towards more serious stuff. But by then we'd already have lost huge, non recoverable, and often non recyclable either, quantities of it to BS uses.
There's an important separate question here in determining the proper discount rate for scarce goods. How much should we use them for society's goals right now, and how much should we reserve for 10 or 100 years? That's a really important question and I'm not sure we have a firm answer.
There are arguments to be made that future generations tend to be so much better off than previous generations so that we should not really worry about them. My grandparents spent something like $3500 on their first house. If the had the chance to go back in time and not buy it, but give me $3500 today, it would be a monumentally bad decision. They'd have to command a massive rate of return for that to be as meaningful to me as it was to them (I'm not sure there's any amount I'd take to deprive my loving grandparents of homeownership... maybe if I could like eradicate malaria in a country or save some huge number of lives with the money I'd have to consider it, but it'd certainly be more than $3500).
On the other hand, there are counterarguments that we should defer to future generations far more than we currently do, or that new trends like population decline or environmental issues might make some of these trends reverse.
One of the neat things is that if you think society is making the wrong call, you get a vote. You don't get to veto all of society, because there are reasonable differences of opinions. But if you think we're hastily exhausting oil, you just can hoard oil, and sell it at a handsome profit in retirement. You don't even have to physically possess it, you can just buy futures contracts.
If you're right, you'll not only be hugely rewarded as it gets more scarce and valuable, but your purchase will have slightly nudged up current prices to deter some of the most frivolous uses. If you really believe we're heading to peak oil, you might have a moral obligation to do this.
I would strongly recommend you do not. Most of the world thinks it's not going to turn out that way, and they've been right decade after decade, with small exceptions when cartels and wars have artificially interfered with supplies.
Maybe the pessimists will actually be right this time. I would not bet on it.
> Most of the world thinks it's not going to turn out that way, and they've been right decade after decade, with small exceptions when cartels and wars have artificially interfered with supplies. Maybe the pessimists will actually be right this time. I would not bet on it.
Ever heard of the inductivist turkey?
"This turkey found that, on his first morning at the turkey farm, he was fed at 9 a.m.
However, being a good inductivist, he did not jump to conclusions. He waited until he had collected a large number of observations of the fact that he was fed at 9 a.m., and he made these observations under a wide variety of circumstances, on Wednesdays and Thursdays, on warm days and cold days, on rainy days and dry days.
Each day, he added another observation statement to his list. Finally, his inductivist conscience was satisfied and he carried out an inductive inference to conclude, “I am always fed at 9 a.m.”.
Alas, this conclusion was shown to be false in no uncertain manner when, on Christmas eve, instead of being fed, he had his throat cut. An inductive inference with true premises has led to a false conclusion". (Bertrand Russel)
(I though there's also a Black Swan NSS theme in this, but on a second thought the eventual exhaustion of limited resources is hardly an unforeseeable Black Swan -- whether people have bet on them being exhausted and lost a billion times in the past or not).
Sure, love the reference. I studied analytic philosophy and Russell is one of my favorite philosophers.
I'm quite fond of his version:
"We know that all these rather crude expectations of uniformity are liable to be misleading. The man who has fed the chicken every day throughout its life at last wrings its neck instead, showing that more refined views as to the uniformity of nature would have been useful to the chicken."
Notably, Russell does not abandon induction in that work, he seems to retreat to a probabilistic, almost Bayesian conception of it (along with a resignation that it seems the best we can do, but a passionate closing defense that it's good enough).
I'm very comfortable with that same probabilistic confidence approach here. (Hence the "bet" language.)
Humanity has frequently abandoned scarce resources upon discovering superior substitutes, while seldom abandoning them through exhaustion. Theories of economics and measures of human progress, while not being ironclad rules, provide rough explanations as to why this keeps happening.
So, sure, happy to concede it is not a foregone conclusion that humanity will always outgrow scarce resources. Nothing is ever 100% certain. But our certainty should generally increase with our observations of a trend, so it seems highly probable for any particular case.
It remains generally unwise to bet against all well established trends, the mere possibility of wrung necks notwithstanding.
Or, as Russell closed the work:
"That some risk of error remains must be admitted, since human beings are fallible. Philosophy may claim justly that it diminishes the risk of error, and that in some cases it renders the risk so small as to be practically negligible. To do more than this is not possible in a world where mistakes must occur; and more than this no prudent advocate of philosophy would claim to have performed. "
Europe clear cut most of their trees in the Middle Ages to such an extent that monarchs were forbidding the use of wood for numerous non-naval uses. It was one of those edicts forbidding use of wood in glass production, and a bunch of other uses that tipped the UK toward the industrial revolution. Coal became far more widely used, whereas it had previously been seen as dirty and to be avoided. Some see that lack of wood as a push to colonise.
If we're talking regeneratable resources, such as plants and wood, we've exceeded the capacity of the planet since about 1970. It's been measured by earth overshoot day[1], which has steadily been getting earlier since its first calculation of Dec 31st. In 2019 it was July 29. We would need 1.7 earths to sustainably supply the resources we use.
Humanity already uses over 50% of the earth's land -- the best, most productive, most fertile 50% for our homes and agriculture, and what's left is the least productive and unusable.
The idea that we're not running out on a finite planet, with exponentially growing population, and nearly all the productive landmass already in service of humanity is what doesn't make sense.
That doesn't match with my experience of the world around us.
Rather it seems like what we've done is initially used a load of resource (e.g. low mpg cars, massively overbuilt bridges, buildings, etc) and then started to optimize later.
It seems more likely to me that we enter a regime whereby lots of stuff is needlessly expensive compared to what it could have been if we'd rationed properly from the get go.
From that: “However, this does not imply that improved fuel efficiency is worthless if the Jevons paradox occurs; higher fuel efficiency enables greater production and a higher material quality of life.”
What you are claiming is that the market is 100% efficient but history and just knowing how business work says otherwise. The thing is that resources that have been mismanaged by the market are long gone so you don’t hear much about them. For example Galapagos island turtle meat was a great industry until they were all wiped out except a few in a remote island. The market takes time to react, for example if you sell something that turns out to be toxic, it takes time for the market to react (cigarette industry).
> The idea that we’re “running out” of resources doesn’t make sense. Resources are and have always been scarce. When something becomes exceedingly rare, people choose to consume less of that resource.
I think looking at this as purely a matter of price is just a way to ignore the problem.
Let's say I happen to own a large supply of a limited resource. I can sell that resource so it's cheap for everyone else, yet in volume, I get very rich.
The problem is that resource will run out at some time in the future. My incentive is to sell it now and make sure that it lasts long enough to build me a nice fat retirement fund. Who cares about people 200 years from now.
> My incentive is to sell it now and make sure that it lasts long enough to build me a nice fat retirement fund. Who cares about people 200 years from now.
Yes but it's scarce. As he sells the price goes up so he controls the outcome. His nest egg permanently exists because it's limited, the supply will always drop. Selling the last dregs of helium for military contracts or private industry will eclipse any reasonable monetary requirements. He can hang on to the smallest amount for a long time.
If helium doesn't sell for that much at the last point then it wasn't worth that much anyway and he couldn't build a nest egg off a normal sale price.
And yet we are in the middle of a Great Extinction event. The numbers of lots of species turned out to be finite and market forces didn't prevent their extinction.
This is all true but markets don't always have great foresight, and there are entire tranches of externalities to worry about.
For example, the market doesn't really care if a tree is 'new growth' gown for consumption, and a 300 year old 'old growth' tree, the loss of which has some material impact. It might be cheaper in many cases to fell old forests, in which case we're pricing poorly.
So let's get all the externalities in there and see what the numbers look like.
I am skeptical that more terms in equations can quantify the effect of losing, e.g. biodiversity. Markets have shown time and again they cannot effectively price long-term risks, and people are irrational and unable to account for costs that are farther in the future than their own lifetime.
The post you’re responding to says “people are irrational and unable to account for costs that are farther in the future,” not “I don’t care about costs that are farther in the future than my own lifetime.”
I respectfully disagree. It's not just fuzzy, it's completely wrong. Imagine 200 years ago asking an economist to estimate the cost of destroying 100kg of pure Uranium 235. They simply did not understand its value, not only because it could not be utilized with current technology, they did not even understand what technology could utilize it. Worse, if they understood radioactivity, which they didn't, they might consider it to have negative value, because U235 is highly radioactive and will absolutely give you acute radiation poisoning. However, today that amount of nuclear fuel would be worth millions, if not billions of dollars.
We have the same situation, but not with materials for consumption, but the natural world, in particular, rainforests. In 200 years we might actually have half a chance of understanding what we're destroying in 2020.
I wonder about that. Is excretion considered a form of waste?
My usage of water shouldn't exceed 400 kgs per month. That includes drinking, bathing, flushing, cleaning, cooking and washing hands (I even have a weird habit of doing that excessively). You can't get that much wasted water from that usage.
Actually, I noticed the word average just now. I am packing my bags.
> You can't get that much wasted water from that usage.
You also need to factor in the wastewater to produce all of the other products you consume. That produce you bought at the store and rinsed yourself was also likely washed several times along the supply chain before it got to you. That one bottle of beer you drank? The bottle has been washed several times, inside and out, along with the vat the beer was brewed in, every single pipe and tool that was used to process or shunt it, etc.
If I did that with everything, not just water. It would be way more waste than 1 tonne.
What about frequently checking replies page out of FOMA?
What about the content I watch or read? The anime I watched last took lot to produce and there is no doubt, people wasted shit ton of paper along with other things are?
All those things you mentioned are part of residential water usage, which is just 5% of society's freshwater usage. Industry (the products you buy) uses a similar amount alone. Dwarfing residential and industry is agriculture (42%, the food you buy) and energy generation (34%, the electrical power).
That would be silly/stupid. But then again, that seems to be the standard for environmental reporting these days. The most catastrophic-sounding headline gets the most clicks.
The article says that a large portion of material use is in construction, so if you've moved into a newly-built home that will have used quite a bit of material to build.
13 tons is also a mean - don't read too much into it. Some people will have very lavish lifestyles, creating tons of waste, and others will have more spartan lifestyles, creating much less waste.
> so if you've moved into a newly-built home that will have used quite a bit of material to build
I didn't mention the dumpster outside of my house while it was built. I don't know what percentage of materials was wasted, but I doubt it's a multiple.
> "and nearly a quarter is discarded into the environment, such as plastic in waterways and oceans."
That piece of the graph showing that 22 billion tons is discarded into the environment almost seems unbelievably high. There must be some caveat to that figure right?
What most graphs showing garbage being thrown into the environment won't show is who is doing the discarding.
China, Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, and Vietnam dump more plastics into the ocean than all other countries combined. That's because these countries have large numbers of people in poverty or under economic or political stress, who typically are far more concerned with the immediate needs of survival than with hypothetical environmental concerns.
What makes it worse is that the garbage doesn't all come from those countries... a good part of it comes from industrialized western nations because those nations find it cheap to make their trash someone else's problem.
The reason this isn't discussed is that fixing the issue would require the wealthy western nations to intervene economically in those places to change the situation, something which would be resisted by the governments who find advantage in having a population that's not educated and remains under stress.
On top of that, climate change is happening.. those countries and people are going to be under more stress soon, not less... what will happen if, one day, those people have a choice between surviving another year by dumping toxins into the environment that will sterilize the oceans or dying?
> because these countries have large numbers of people in poverty…
Its probably going to be a surprise to you then to learn that Kigali, Rwanda is absolutely spotless. Somehow they manage to come together every month to clean the city and have banned plastic
I know it makes 'sense' that poor people don't care about the environment, but you really should include all the data in your hypothesis.
>> China, Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, and Vietnam dump more plastics into the ocean than all other countries combined.
> Its probably going to be a surprise to you then to learn that Kigali, Rwanda is absolutely spotless.
GP enumerated the countries they were talking about, they didn’t imply all countries with poverty are to blame. It’s well documented that those countries are the source of a large portion of ocean plastic and that US and other western countries ship their recycling and garbage to those countries.
So what's their plan when the plastic gets to them?
1. refuse it (China did)
2. process it (pyrolysis → diesel ?)
3. clean it and resell it (clothing, furniture)
4. do nothing, let it wash into their environment. Shame.
As I showed, the desperately poor folk of Rwanda managed to get their government to make a plan. Their is no reason why hundreds of millions of these less-poor folk can't do it.
I suggest we stop handing out free-passes for poor behaviour.
>Their is no reason why hundreds of millions of these less-poor folk can't do it.
Rwanda doesn't have the same problem with poverty and garbage as the countries I listed, and it's tiny compared to them. Specifically, the issue contributing to pollution here is that the countries in question have:
* Lots of people in poverty, and an upper class that are not
* Industries offshored from richer nations
* Significant amounts of trash being produced locally or taken in from other countries (usually via barge or sea traffic)
* Lax environmental enforcement that either doesn't restrict or is overwhelmed by the number of people polluting who are just trying to survive
It's not about having a plan... it's more about being able live another day. The problem isn't that they want to be poor, it's that their governments keep them that way and don't care about the environment or their welfare as long as their power is maintained.
The best option for a lot of the poor is picking through garbage from richer people, either from other countries or their own. There are so many people in the Philippines who literally eat food made from the remains of other people's meals they find in the garbage and re-use that it has a name - Pagpag. If you're poor enough to eat that way, disposing of other people's garbage in an environmentally sound way is pretty far down the priority list.
The best solution apart from common sense measures and laws controlling what waste can be exported and what has to happen to it is probably to buy plastic bottles from those poor people... they get money and live better, we get plastic sorted into types for recycling processes.
I suggest western countries stop outsourcing manufacturing at peanuts (so those poor countries can make effective recycling, cleaning plants, etc), sending off their garbage and pretending total waste produced by more people should be the same as total waste produced by less people.
Per capita, people in developed countries are polluting far more. Comparing the total waste of Canada or US to India is similiar to saying CEO deserves more money because he works much harder than hundreds of people under them.
India has 1.34 billion people while US has almost 4x less and Canada 36x less.
An average American produce enough plastic for 10 Indians. Poor countries than india have even less per capita wastage.
> As I showed, the desperately poor folk of Rwanda managed to get their government to make a plan. Their is no reason why hundreds of millions of these less-poor folk can't do it.
Apples and oranges!
It’s a heck of a lot easier to clean up plastic waste when you aren’t having literally millions of tons[0] of it shipped to you from the United States alone.
The issue isn’t a few folks aren’t picking up trash along the river/beach, it’s many orders of magnitude difference in scale.
Apart from being an outlier, and a plastic bag ban not being the same as one on plastic (how would that even work?), it's not like the city would be spotless if it wasn't littered with armed men and heavy enforcement.
Poverty means immediacy, and given global markets also struggle heavily with longer-term thinking no one sane would fault those in precarious positions for not giving a shit.
A place riddled with plastic garbage certainly looks worse than one that gathers and burns theirs, but since even power plant incineration with scrubbers etc is inefficient and hardly good for the environment... an actual landfill would be a lot better.
But it does make me wonder why so much Asian plastic ends up in the ocean. Why don't they burn it?
>that piece of the graph showing that 22 billion tons is discarded into the environment almost seems unbelievably high. There must be some caveat to that figure right?
A quick google search says oil consumption in 2015 was 9.3x10^7 barrels and a barrel weighs 3x10^2 pounds so if we used 100% of our 2015 oil consumption to make plastic which comes out about three orders of magnitude short. Less than 5% of oil production is used for plastic, more than making up for any increase in tonnage from other ingredients (mostly nitrogen and/or oxygen) in the plastic.
So yeah, there's something in that statistic that got lost in translation.
I'm thinking that most of the 21 billion tons of food produced are "lost to environment" depending on how "refuse" is defined, mostly as human waste and some as human beings.
21.3 billion tons of the input materials are used to make food. I suspect that a lot of that 22 billion tons "discarded to the environment" includes sewage.
This is impressive, but just one meter of dirt covering the surface of the earth is about 1.2 million trillion tons. 30 trillion tons would create a layer about 0.03mm thick. Invisible in a geologic sense.
That says there are 148 trillion square meters of land area on earth. So the technosphere (at 30 trillion tons) is about 1/5ton per square meter, or about 200 kg. If you use the all of the Earth's surface, it's 510 trillion square meters, so about 1/17th of a ton per square meter, or about 58 kg per square meter.
Assuming the dirt weighs about 2 tons per cubic meter, this corresponds to 58 kg/m^2 / 2000 kg/m^3 =~ 0.03 m, so it seems like the gp just used the incorrect unit.
You are correct. I had 1000000000 as a trillion. Scientific notation is a much better way to calculate things. At 30mm that is a big enough layer that a geologist could see it in the rock record, if it looked different enough.
I believe that we've spewed enough radiation that no visual distinction would necessary for detection, at least for the next several tens of thousands of years.
It's true that atmospheric nuclear testing has produced trace elements that were basically never on Earth before 1945, like Strontium-90 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strontium-90]. Strontium-90 has a half life of about 29 years, so it will be detectable for a few thousand years or so. Some others last longer.
But I thought that the US was experiencing dematerialization in that weight of inputs was decreasing in absolute terms despite economic and population growth. Is this not the case or is it that the US's decrease is overcome by increases elsewhere globally?
This is the same fallacy that lead people to fear “peak oil” every decade for the past 50 years. Nobody treats resources as if they’re limitless. The reason we don’t coat everything in gold is because it’s rare (and thus expensive), leading to producers only using it when it’s absolutely necessary. Wood is abundant (and therefore cheap), so it’s used in everything from packing materials to building houses. If these conditions changed and wood for some reason became rare and expensive, it wouldn’t be used in the same way we use it now. People would choose to build their houses out of a different material, and tree farmers would choose to plant more trees.
The idea that we’re “running out” of resources doesn’t make sense. Resources are and have always been scarce. When something becomes exceedingly rare, people choose to consume less of that resource.