Not sure if you're a parent, but presumably if you were, you'd know there are days when no amount of planning can make things go smoothly. Sometimes kids just refuse to cooperate. Have some empathy.
Not having children doesn't mean you're not allowed to criticize parents for poor behaviour. Regardless, I am a parent to two young children and have done the morning drop offs to school/day care every morning for the last 6 years. Yes sometimes in life being late is inevitable. If it's a recurring pattern though, you're screwing up.
> Not having children doesn't mean you're not allowed to criticize parents for poor behaviour.
That is exactly what it means. People without children have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and have no means of acquiring that knowledge except by having a child.
We're veering sharply into off-topic territory here, but: I don't need to be a helicopter pilot to know that if I see one stuck in a tree, someone screwed up.
Yes, there are many things about being a parent that you can't truly know or understand until you experience it for yourself, but that doesn't mean that only a parent can see when another parent has screwed up.
Ironically, this sort of outrageously absolutist assertion sounds like exactly the kind of thing a parent would say to their child to quash a debate about their decision making.
So I can't criticize law enforcement because I'm not a LEO? I can't criticize a politician because I'm not in politics? I can't criticize a woman because I'm not female myself? I can't criticize a parrot owner because I don't own a bird? This is an absolutely ridiculous line of reasoning
>People without children have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and have no means of acquiring that knowledge except by having a child
So a male doctor can't be a gynecologist because they have "no idea what they are talking about and have no means of acquiring that knowledge except by having" female genetalia? I can't have any idea what it's like owning a parrot except by owning a bird? Again, this is absolutely absurd. Having a child does not enter you into some elite class of individuals that no one else can understand, and it's perfectly acceptable for me to criticize you despite not having children myself
In my experience, the least informed always have the strongest opinions. The well informed see all te complexities and know "it's not that easy". Reminds me of this quote:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.”
I genuinely feel bad for your children. You see yourself as somehow metaphysically enlightened and beyond reproach by non-parents, just by virtue of having them - I can't imagine how tyrannical you are in your relationship with them.
By this standard, people who have not had experience or learning in a given domain are just as qualified in that domain as those who have. It is a rejection of all knowledge.
Wow, you sound like a major, self centered narcissist at the very least. There is nothing special about having children, and there is nothing you can learn that I cannot. If you really do have children I feel bad for them. In another comment you said that if I'm really concerned about the environment I should kill myself. You clearly have some issues to work through, and I wish you the best
Personal attacks like this are a bannable offense on HN. Moreover, you got into two of these petty flamewars on HN within 24 hours. That's seriously not ok, and it looks like you've done this in the past as well, so I've banned this account until we get some indication that you want to use HN as intended. If that's the case, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and say so. We're happy to unban anyone who gives us reason to believe that they'll follow the site guidelines in the future.
Of course anyone can criticize anything they want to. But generally they'll just sound stupid to anyone who actually knows the space. I've never heard a non-parent make a remotely sensible criticism about parenting. I've never heard a non-programmer make a sensible statement about programming, etc. Parents aren't an "elite class of individuals" - we simply have experience non-parents don't. Non-parents talking about parenting are as a rule hilarious examples of the Dunning–Kruger effect. (I'm not a psychologist, so psychologists would probably consider that last statement a hilarious example of the Dunning-Kruger effect :))
While I absolutely agree that there is a ton of bad behavior in the world from people ignorantly pontificating on things outside their wheelhouse, it is incredibly arrogant and ignorant to suggest that non-parents know nothing about parenting. It just doesn't even make logical sense.
If you are constantly late for everything and always blame it on your kid, you are doing something wrong. You should know by now that things always take longer than expected with a kid, and plan accordingly. No, you will not always get it right, and that's fine. Occasional lapses are expected and accepted. But if it becomes a regular pattern, you are simply shifting blame for your poor time-management skills onto a child that does not deserve that finger pointed at them.
If you are going to discount my opinion out of hand, I suppose I can't keep you from doing that. But, my opinion happens to agree with that of a parent upthread, so... take that as you will, I suppose.
> I've never heard a non-parent make a remotely sensible criticism about parenting
Really? What about children of truly abusive parents (who are not themselves parents)? Are their critiques of their parents as parents not remotely sensible?
I'm not at all in favor of people aggressively policing the parenting practices of others. I just don't think Dunning-Kruger applies at all here, because everyone (except orphans) has some significant experience with the practice of parenting - even if it is only as the parented, you can still form cogent opinions about the practice. It's not some high expertise domain like programming, it's literally human nature.
It doesn't even have to be as extreme as abuse. For example, non-parents and parents alike should feel free to be critical of parents who allow their kids to misbehave in a restaurant.
In the rational sense, you have a point. I’m sympathetic to your position. I wish people were better at calmly and dispassionately weighing facts and reason, but we are largely not.
Your male OB example is really close to hitting a subject where people are sometimes angrily and even violently attached to their positions and on which some insist that men do not even have worthwhile opinions — merely because they are men. Similarly, others stake out positions that it is okay to “punch up” because they allege that ethics, propriety, and justice depend on group identity. These are utterly irrational by the same point that I believe you’re making, but knowing your audience is crucial. Good luck being heard on certain subjects.
Parenting isn’t that extreme, but a strong emotional component is present. With criticism in general, if in the audience’s view you haven’t earned the right, then you’re just running your mouth. You may have heard of Powdered Butt Syndrome: anyone who has powdered your butt does not want your opinion on money or sex. Being a parent changes everything in ways that it’s difficult for non-parents to understand. Even if a non-parent accepts this on an intellectual level, the deeper visceral appreciation is still missing.
Yes, being late is rude. Screaming children in a restaurant while others are trying to enjoy a meal is annoying. Parents should not allow their kids to behave like ill-mannered brats. To really oversimplify, becoming a parent tends to raise some parents’ tolerance to misbehavior. I can talk about gross topics over dinner that would have caused my pre-kids self to ask for a change of subject or to excuse myself from the table. Parenting can be exhausting. All relationships are challenging at times. Sometimes people choose to pick their battles.
All that said, some parents dismiss advice or criticism from other parents too. It must be nice to have your perfect kids, live in your perfect neighborhood, and send them to their perfect school. What do you know about my situation? You have X and I don’t. I have Y and you don’t.
Anyone can criticize to criticize. Doing it with love to actually help someone else is much more delicate.
Indeed. That is true for people with or without kids. If you are consistently late, you are doing something wrong. Might be not enough time, could be an unrealistic start time, who knows. But if you are always late... as they say, brother that is on you.
It can act as a cure. I have some in-laws who are better than ever since they've been forced to adhere to some strict timings around school and childcare.
On the contrary, I found that the mornings I had a wide time margin, most things went smoothly and I could enjoy the time with my children. When I was nearly late from the start, things would go bad and soon even worse. I put it down to the difference in my patience and attitude in dealing with the inevitable little hiccups. In other words, I was to blame when we were late.
It's really disheartening to me to see that, immediately after you make a comment critical of rude behavior common to many parents, all the parents pile on and assume you just absolutely must be a non-parent.
I get that being a parent means that traditional ideas of what's "a good night's sleep" can completely go out the window, but it's kinda sad that the default response is to just accept that you're going to be rude and disrespectful of other people's time.
Wish I could find the article, but I recall reading something a year or so ago that found a link between new parents and a newfound reduction in empathy for anyone outside their nuclear family. Given that, I guess this attitude shouldn't be surprising.
That’s not the most mature way to state it, but you have a reasonable point. I try to be careful about monitoring my kids’ behavior in public places. When people go for a meal out, they are paying for a nice time and not to hear screaming kids or dodge little unruly hooligans. Elsewhere in the thread, I noted that parents out of necessity choose their battles due to fatigue, selfishness, or letting small things go (but perhaps after recalibrating on what’s small). It’s as though parents’ tolerance for bad behavior increases.
Just like non-parents do not have a full appreciation for what parents go through, we parents forget what it was like before kids. Parents and non-parents tend to self-sort into disjoint social networks. Parents of school-aged kids forget what it was like to have infants and toddlers. Oh, just wait until they’re teenagers, say the helpful, encouraging grandparents.
Think about others. Put yourself in their shoes. Stop being selfish. That’s good advice for all of us, no matter where we are in life.
