On my first gig as a freelancer, I had the misfortune to have such a non-paying (almost) nonexistent company as a client. Worked almost two months without getting paid. I almost abandoned freelancing after that.
Since then, I have a rule, that only failed me once: before working a month for a person, work a week or less, get paid.
There are smart scammers who are really devious but those I have met had all kind of pathological problems they were in denial with. I think that most scammers live in a fantasy world.
By forcing them to prove they have money, are ready to pay you and know how to make a bank transfer, you are pruning a lot of them.
Also, and especially in my case where I have several international clients, the "I dont understand the bank transfer got refused" excuse is very common (and sadly, very believable). Having worked through all the troubles of making a payment from their accounts to yours already sets expectations about normal delays.
+1 to this. If 50% is untenable due to large project size or unknown scope, what also works really well is agreeing to big milestones for a project and attaching payment plans/due dates to those milestones. e.g. $5k due upon signing of contract, $10k due upon delivery of feature A, $7k upon delivery of feature B, etc.
Agreed. Always have an initiation fee, applicable to hours to be spent. By the time this ask has been made, the proposal conversation should've established your credibility.
When extended beyond initiation it acts in good ways like attorney fees retainer. Perhaps borrow more elements from that other industry?
The engineering retainer times out monthly and gets refreshed before the next month, or when it's exhausted, whichever comes first. Done properly you're not one of your client's creditors: The client should always be in a financial position w/r/t you where you're pre-paid, your compensation secured by the positive retainer balance and if you really get serious, by retaining a perfeted security interest in the work product.
We do this for our maintenance retainers... after our sites go live, we continue to provide technical and marketing services on a monthly basis. Pre-paid retainers secure a lower billing rate.
So far, it hasn't been a good idea to start out that way, even from our perspective. The problem with "projects" is that there are usually requirements on both sides, and payment + delivery keep things urgent for both sides. I hate projects that go on forever because the client can't produce things they need to or respond in a definitive manner. Holding the deliverable back is a pretty impactful negative consequence (or: motivation).
We are exploring an "agency of record" start-up engagement where the retainer plus phases may be the way to go. But it's less of a project with deliverables than agency-of-record time and effort.
Wait, what? How is this supposed to work for something like consulting? Asking for a retainer up front is often a one-way ticket to a potential client saying "no thanks" and going with someone else. I definitely would have lost many highly profitable opportunities with that approach.
Just get at least some money up front. If you can't walk away. It's a pretty simple concept, and it's the way to solve this problem.
OK so maybe the only other exception to this rule is when you have a real life serious executed contract and a purchase order with a serious company with hundreds of employees at minimum. Actually just kidding even then don't do it unless you know what you're doing. Those guys decide not to pay or pay months or years later a lot of the time too and will put you right out of business.
If someone complains about your policy tell them that you don't have a business manager, billing department, or collections operation, and by not having that you're passing all the savings on those functions on to the client, in exchange for a simple deposit or retainer.
Trust me on this. I'm old and have seen a lot of shit. Until you have a ton of experience freelancing or consulting or running an agency and don't need to ask questions like this just start off by getting a deposit or retainer up front every single time you do any work at all.
Freelancing!=consulting,or at least not always. In consulting you'd normally sign engagement contracts, probably even come up with a proposal on what you'll do. Also depends what companies you deal with,in what industry and etc. Freelancing,at least in generally accepted terms,is slightly different,even though there's lots of overlapping areas.
I understand what you're saying, but I think the difference there is one of contractual maturity more than anything else. There's no reason a run of the mill freelancing setup can't utilize enforceable contracts, even for small projects. A statement I would agree with is something like, "Never do any work unless you have an enforceable contract in place or get a good-faith payment up front."
"I don't have time to transfer the money,I'm literally driving across the country to the meeting,can we do this tomorrow?" ( It takes 1 minute to pull out your phone, login to your bank app and do it).
"Can we just changes this?And this?And then bombards you with 20 back and forth of last minute changes that have never came up in previous 10 meetings you had" (Either can't make up their minds or simply no idea what they want or just delaying payments).
Your first alarm warning to walk away is the first time payroll is missed. Unless you have some personal attachment to the founders or summat, no amount of "vision" and "passion" is going to make up for the fact that the company is doomed and/or you're being scammed.
If you're not on payroll, as another commentor mentions: get money up front. If that's a problem, walk away. Take a page from my patented School of Hard Knocks: if the relationship starts with money problems, you're not suave enough to salvage it. (Source: almost ten years running a consulting company.)
I think people miss this because of the Sunken Cost Fallacy.
I've been freelancing 8 years and I can't imagine taking on a project without 50% upfront. The rare instances I missed that, I've lost money -- fortunately not more than a few thousand total.
I'm sorry, but that first paragraph was hilarious. Hates coding and realizes they don't want to be part of the pool that actually has to work 60+ hours a week... I want to be a team manager! I'd rather tell people to work 60 hours instead of being told to work 60 hours!
I laughed at that point, too. Would have immediately showed the door to such an applicant. Reminded me a lot of little kids' job dreams: "I want to be a boss when I'm big..."
Sure, management is a fine career goal, as good as any. But when many people say, "I wanna be the boss!" in the best case, it's some fantasy about control, and in the worst it turns out to be pathological. And those are the last people on the planet you want to be "the boss".
I see what you're saying, and I'm on board with that. But isn't it sort of a tautology? I mean, these seems to be a pretty universal human value, to want some measure of positive, affirmative things to happen to us. Even to the point that some people drive themselves (and their families) into the dirt, killing themselves trying to achieve what they think will give them that kind of self-actualization.
That's a bit unfair. The person in the article was obviously passionate about the industry. nearly every game dev studio has some combination of project managers, salespeople, marketers, hr -- aka non-artists and non-coders who are still incredible valuable.
Programmers aren't uniquely qualified or special either. Your job could be replaced by a cheap guy in India or Russia in seconds. Or even a cheaper recent grad. Eventually, AI will do your job.
I agree that machines will probably write most of the software one day. I disagree that this will cause all "programming" jobs to disappear. I disagree vehemently that all programmers are fungible with "cheap guys in India or Russia". Over the last twenty five years, I've watched this industry expand to become the highest-paid industry outside of doctoring, lawyering, and banking, and the whole time, people said the job market was balanced precariously on the edge of collapse because of this imagined (and completely untrue) programmer fungibility with "cheap guys in India or Russia".
The problem with that strategy in the real world is that as a manager, if your team is working 60hr weeks they're probably creating 60hr of work for you. Sure you can ignore it but then you'll be the bottleneck and 60hr workweeks will become 30hr of work and 30hr of shitposting on HN. It's rarely sustainable to work less than everyone who's work makes you work. If you want to be a slave driver you need to keep up with the slaves.
The difference between having a coding team manager that expects everyone should work 60+ hours and a non-coder who is against it, can be huge. I prefer the latter.
I always preferred to have a boss/manager that has some knowledge of what I do. Maybe not the best. But if I explain an issue or problem, they're not lost. Thus, when I say "this is going to take a while" they don't say "you need to do it faster". They let me do the work and on the backend try to find an extra hand, information or anything that might help me. Because they KNOW what I'm going through.
I've never met or heard of a manager whose only skill is managing and was actually helpful in the work process. Plus, the useless managers are typically the ones who think the peons should work at 60 hours, because they were never the peon.
Hey! I get to say this. I am triggered when I hear people only want to be managers because I know they're incredibly useless meat bags.
I had a good laugh about it,but the reality is that there are millions out there who couldn't be asked to move a finger but be more than happy to get a manager title and show others what to do.
I hire people via upwork and freelancer to do a lot outsourced non-core tasks for my startup. One of the traits I look for is an immovable demand that 30-50% of a project be paid upfront.
It's a s* test that is a far better indicator of experience and competence than any flashy portfolio and ratings.
> Lycanic hopes that in the end, the experience with Drakore will turn out well for Zeal. “At the end of the day, this is not a loss for us. This is a win for us,” said Dinçer. “We know tons of people who want to work with us and not ask for money from us until the time the game starts making money.”
> Lycanic was a team of two developers, Mert Dinçer and Tim Popov
IMO, Dincer and Popov hold rather significant liability for not doing their due diligence. They were involved in the situation on a day-to-day basis, and will profit the most from the scam.
I did find that quote funny. No kidding it's a win for you, by not exercising due diligence you got 25 people to work on your game for free, and you got to walk away with their work and the rights to the game. Talk about a windfall!
Milestones. As a freelancer I have insisted on payment after milestones and it never failed me. That and very strict "no pay, no work" ethics.
The point is: Even when "there is no money", getting someone on board takes time and effort. If that someone makes a credible threat to leave, more often than not suddenly there is money. If not: RUN.
The milestone method is very common in the trades, where a lot of builders, etc. are self-employed.
Scams are still a threat in that field though. I was on a job where the client devised ways to hold up suppliers so we'd miss our deadlines and he'd get a discount. I did a 22-hour shift and my boss pulled a few all-nighters to get done on time.
A friend of mine worked on a home remodel job for which the contractor expected delays in payment. The job included a fireplace and chimney because the homeowner loved fireplaces. After a couple of weeks the homeowner called to say he would pay the damn bill but in return they had to fix the terrible draw on the fireplace because the house was filling with smoke no matter how the damper was adjusted. Check in hand, the contractor sent my friend up a ladder to drop a rock down the chimney. After the plate glass they had cemented into the flue while building the chimney was broken, the draw was fine...
Very surprised that your friend still has your contractor's license since that's a great way to get it terminated forever.
Also a good way to get sued for negligence.
And while we're at it, your friend was looking at potential criminal charges, especially if the house had filled with carbon monoxide and killed its inhabitants.
Haha "contractor's license" what is that? At the state level, some electricians are licensed. Carpenters, generals? No way. The county we're talking about doesn't even inspect private homes. (Which lack of inspection is a good thing. You can always hire an inspector. In the meantime, thrifty folks are building their own homes and only hiring out for the jobs they can't do themselves.) Besides this was probably thirty years ago. My friend is old. His employer (is he who you want to see licensed?) probably isn't even still alive now.
CO is dangerous, sure, but lots of fireplaces have had poor draws over the thousands of years that humans have been using fireplaces. It's more common to die from CO when the whole house is burning, but it isn't a sure thing even then. Lots of practices that used to be accepted are going away now that some buildings have CO detectors installed. I had to get the fire department involved to convince a tenant in my office building that their cleaning crew shouldn't use propane-powered floor buffers. The fire department guy was like "I wondered why we had a CO alarm in June..."
It's amusing to me that you're so sure my friend was lying about this amusing anecdote from his past. I've seen this guy get in an argument with an employer when he thought he had been overpaid.
GC licensing isn't some new regulation. It's been around for a lot longer than 30 years in most states. In Colorado, carpenters and other general contractor's are licensed at the municipal/county level, not the state level. All counties in Colorado require general contractors to be licensed except the most rural counties.
It's one thing to build a chimney that accidentally traps fumes. It's another to do so deliberately. This sort of stunt in CA would be (and 30 years ago, still would have been) a criminal act.
So yeah, I'm pretty sure your friend is either outright lying or exaggerating the truth to ridiculous extremes.
It's more common to die from CO when the whole house is burning, but it isn't a sure thing even then.
I have no idea where you got this statistic from, but the primary cause of death from fires is smoke inhalation, not CO inhalation. CO inhalation deaths are greatest in the winters when people run their fireplaces with the chimney flues closed or faulty internal heaters.
This may come as a surprise, but I live in a rural county, and the house we're talking about is in an even more rural county. It's curious, that on HN we Americans are always reminded not to assume anything about other cultures (and rightly so), but we're eager in turn to assume all sorts of things about other states we've never seen. You've got some strong emotions about how remodeling should be done and paid for, but not everyone feels the same as you do. Certainly not everyone felt that way decades before you even thought about construction. California (or whatever other state you're referencing) is not a microcosm of the rest of the nation.
Anyway, you're wrong about that state too. Lots of remodeling gets done there, too, without the involvement of licensed general contractors.
Worked in plumbing some years ago. A colleague did a big job on the heating system for this guy,who then started evading him when it came to getting paid. My colleague called him and said: I left a massive piece of metal in the pipework,so the first time you'll turn on the heating,the whole system will go tits up and you won't have heating for weeks. The guy was chasing my colleague for a week trying to give him the money.
Construction liens are designed expressly for situations like this and are fairly easy to get with proof of nonpayment (generally, a timely submitted invoice registered with your local trade union, inspector's office, or similar).
This was in the UK, where job was taken with only a verbal agreement. Only small majority of people don't pay and some of them then end up in situations like this. Aak any builder, especially where contracts aren't as strongly enforceable,and thry will tell you even more interesting ways of dealing with non paying clients.
Not even liens, but imagine what would happen to the person (and their business) if they were caught intentionally and maliciously building failure modes into the thing they were hired to build as a means to ensure they got paid.
But that's what I'm saying: Nobody would be fooled by that. It's not a believable story because anybody with any kind of business and/or reputation would not do that, and everybody knows that to be the case.
You'd be surprised. Had a BBQ at my neighbour's a few months ago. He runs a few dental clinics,so at least financially, he's miles ahead of me. He did a pretty big renovation project on his house. The builders conned him left and right. This was in the UK.
Back in Lithuania,where I'm from,some years ago, the government started a scheme,which encourages flat owners to insulate their buildings.Many blocks of flats were insulated,new cladding added, windows changed,etc. At some point,this thing came to the town,where I'm from. Local contractor hired some Ukrainians to do the work on the roof. There were disputes over the pay,etc. The end result? Many flats flooded,because the guys drilled some holes in the roof before leaving,which was fine during the summer,but so much,when heavy snowing started in winter.So the Ukrainians went back howe, the contractor is facing massive bills+ potential court cases and the residents are simply screwed. I worked in construction industry long enough not to jist hear but to see shit that won't fit any framework.
Well, you're not convincing anybody with a story about Ukrainians damaging roofs in Lithuania, because that's not what I'm talking about, and you knowing a guy in the UK that told you at a BBQ he was "conned left and right" doesn't mean anything to me since I've asserted your anecdotal stories are already not believable.
Won't be dragging my neighbour to the comments section to prove what I was told, however any basic google search shows more than enough articles how people get scammed by builder. BBC even has its own show- Rogue Traders,which exposes people that are much worse compared to what I mentioned in my previous articles.
I was shortly working with similar guy, although from the day one it was free/hobby project. He as a leader couldn't keep focus, he was talking about mountains 200 miles north somewhere at 5h mark in game. Then at one point whenever he asked if I can do feature x, feature y, I said: let's work on first 5 minutes of game play. Ok ok. When he came up with another ideas I said let's work on first 30s of gameplay. Then whenever he get any more ideas I asked: "is this in first 5 minutes of gameplay?". It wasn't and the whole project went nowhere. I still have /r/inat I'm my RSS reader but mostly only for daily "I want to make MMORPG" posts.
It saddens me that there are so many crooks in the world, and that many of them are technically proficient, and that the internet has turned into the perfect platform for crooks, liars, scumbags and cheats.
In 1994, a colleague and I, caught up in the excitement and promise of the Internet and HTML / browsers, gave two 1 hour University-wide lectures about the wonderful promise of what was to come. We made predictions that we thought bordered on crazy (like: one day you will see the things called URLs on buses!). But what we did not foresee is the stinking morass that much of the web has become.
I will get downvoted for sure. And FWIW, I don't work at a blockchain company. But these issues seem like the type of thing smart contracts with escrow accounts were meant to solve.
Place the payment into an escrow account that pays out to multiple parties on a regular cadence, after milestone etc. Everyone can see there's a balance in the account, and it's guaranteed to be dispersed according to some conditions being met.
There are a lot of people reading this that may,at some point, go into freelancing.I do have a mixed experience of freelancing and seeing these things from the business perspective. 2 simple rules:
1) Always,always ask for % upfront. Ideally,50%. If they start coming up with excuses,drop them.There are extremely persuasive people out there, don't get on their hook.
2) Set milestones. Daily,weekly, or if a project is huge, maybe biweekly. If they start their crap about particular invoicing dates,money release, accountant being away or any other crap,even if it sounds convincing- drop them or put the project on halt,by limiting or restricting access, or some other ways.
I'm senior enough in business to know plenty of weasel ways business people pull on freelancers, don't get fooled.
Since then, I have a rule, that only failed me once: before working a month for a person, work a week or less, get paid.
There are smart scammers who are really devious but those I have met had all kind of pathological problems they were in denial with. I think that most scammers live in a fantasy world.
By forcing them to prove they have money, are ready to pay you and know how to make a bank transfer, you are pruning a lot of them.
Also, and especially in my case where I have several international clients, the "I dont understand the bank transfer got refused" excuse is very common (and sadly, very believable). Having worked through all the troubles of making a payment from their accounts to yours already sets expectations about normal delays.