>First, I'm not a lawyer, but I've always seen the MIT license as being more "free",
If you are a lawyer can you maybe be more clear about "more free" , more free relative to what? AFAIK GPL protects the user freedom and I think you are referring at the programmers freedom, GPL is a license that respects the users/society as a group, most people here are developers sothey will say that this is less free for them as an individual, less free to take freedom from others(the freedom to study,modify and distribute).
I was looking at it from the programmer's perspective. Specifically, from the perspective of someone who built something themselves and distributed it.
From what I can tell, the user's freedoms (assuming no changes) are pretty much the same. They can use the software without worry.
If I make a (A)GPL program, I can be certain that EVERY downstream user has access to the source code and the freedom to recompile, reuse, remix, etc.
That is not the case with MIT, where any developer downstream may choose to re-license as they see fit.
From a user's perspective, the rights are very, very different. When you choose a copyleft license, you are making a specific choice that downstream users should have their rights protected, even if that comes at the expense of the "freedom" of downstream developers--who are now prevented from doing anything which restricts user freedom.
The user does NOT have the same freedoms under MIT because there is no obligation to release the sources you have modified and distributed as a binary. A user may also be a programmer but if they have no source their options are limited.
Yes, the direct users of teh MIT program have the freedoms, the issue is the project can be hijacked and made proprietary and then sold to the users. As an example the fact Webkit is opensource is because it was impossible to close source the KHTML fork.
If “users” = “not programmers” (which I think must be the definition here) then neither license gives users anything except the freedom to hire programmers to do something they want more cheaply. (I include buying software and downloading free-as-in-beer software in “hiring programmers”.) With MIT/GPL the programmers can afford to charge a lot less to do the same job.
It’s fundamentally programmer freedom in either case. Any user freedom is an indirect side effect.
No, the GPL is primarily about user freedom, and programmer benefit is a virtuous side-effect. The GPL is entirely made up of restrictions on programmer freedom, which is why BSD/MIT partisans rail against it. It attempts to define the maximum amount of programmer freedom that can be allowed without impeding the user's freedom in any way.
You are correct if I am using an MIT/BSD program as a user I have all the freedoms the issue is if someone forks it and closes it up making it proprietary.
You need to think at the larger picture, compare Linux kernel and BSD and how the licenses affect the projects and all of the users. With Linux GPL prevents parasitic use, like you get Linux, put your proprietary thing on top, close it off and give it to some users, this users will have no freedom to know what the code they run does, no freedom to change it and distribute it. The fact that a user does not code is irrelevant because they ca always pay for others to modify things.
But if the proprietary fork is analogous to the original software the "user" can just seek out the MIT-licensed project and start from there. If the fork contains significant functional modifications then it seems fair to let the author of those changes choose how to distribute them. This doesn't restrict user's freedoms anymore than allowing greenfield projects to be proprietary already does. GPL is for people who are concerned with forcing their viewpoint into wider adoption. MIT is for people that are interested in truly gifting their work (and only their work) to society.
That is only possible sometimes, say I create ffmpeg, it can decode/encode 100 video formats, then Google/Apple forks it and support for a new proprietary format that only they use and not contribute it back, Now Google/Apple use this new properitary format and only their applications will be the only ones that can read all the videos formats.
Maybe a bad analogy,
GPL - I make knives and if you want to use my knives you have to agree not to use them to injure/kill people because this taking their freedom
BSD - you can do whatever you want with my knives, you can kill people I am fine with it because I care only about you my customer freedoms but not about any other people freedoms(lives). Just don't remove my name from the knife.
Actually, that's not really true either. Usually, the company that holds the copyright can afford to charge more for proprietary software, but they also can afford to pay less for software developers, because they hold both the monopoly for the software the user wants, and the monopoly for the work the programmer wants to do/is qualified for. With free software, both sides can potentially just skip the middleman.
If you are a lawyer can you maybe be more clear about "more free" , more free relative to what? AFAIK GPL protects the user freedom and I think you are referring at the programmers freedom, GPL is a license that respects the users/society as a group, most people here are developers sothey will say that this is less free for them as an individual, less free to take freedom from others(the freedom to study,modify and distribute).