The site recommends crunches and leg extensions... crunches are not a great exercise for functional ab muscles, and leg extensions are generally verboten due to stress on the knees from the open chain loading.
It's good to be thinking of this stuff though. I highly recommend Athlean-X(his free youtube videos, can't say anything about his programs) and Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength program. Between these two, I've gotten into a little weightlifting and I'm loving it. My posture is better than it's been in 40 years.
Just do yourself a favor and go slow. Muscles adapt quickly but joints take time. Lay off the creatine until you have some experience. The 2 best supplements you can take are protein and sleep. Don't forget to hydrate and don't overtrain.
If you get a trainer, get a good one. I got a bro who encouraged me to go too far too fast and now I've got a messed up shoulder. Done properly, weightlifting is one of the safest sports.
If you're a keyboard jockey like me, chances are you have weak external rotator cuff muscles, weak serratus anterior muscles, and tight pec minors. Look into correcting all of that first, before you start shredding your shoulder joint with bench presses and bicep curls.
The post is specifically on correcting weaknesses. Leg extensions verboten? That's a blatantly wrong statement because you're using it _absolutely_. Maybe for max loading, but nobody is recommending 1rm leg extensions. Specifically here it's being used to strengthen the VMO, so it would be in a moderate loading range. Without looking it up, can you think of another direct way to improve patellar tracking issues due to overdeveloped vastus lateralis?
Similarly, let's talk about 'functional ab muscles.' Functional is a needlessly vague term. Let's say I'm a powerlifter and I feel my core is limiting my squats. Don't tell me to squat more, because I am an advanced squatter and my core is weak despite heavy squatting, so clearly it would benefit from more direct work. How would you strengthen my abs so my squat can improve? Outside of extremists, most coaches supplement auxiliary lifts to improve weaknesses.
For what it's worth here's a video of Konstantinovs (800+lb deadlift) doing crunches, I don't think he would do that unless he found 'functional' value: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMjXVHHAJ70
I appreciate your enthusiasm but it sounds like you're very clearly a beginner and in situations like this you should keep a more open mind and avoid judging so quickly.
I think a valid definition of functional would be 'common in everyday life', and 'powerlifter trying to max his/her squat' does not qualify as a common everyday movement.
Parent might be referring to the assertion that the abs' main role is to prevent torso flexion (as opposed to cause it), which makes something like a Paloff press a more 'functional' movement.
Not necessarily. The demands of everyday life are sufficient to keep you strong enough for those activities.
Strength training helps with you meet the demands of the things that happen irregularly like moving furniture, clearing snow, having to take care of an injured spouse or parent, or even just playing the odd game of [sport-of-your-own-choosing].
It counters the atrophy associated with a sedentary lifestyle and delays the physical decay associated with old age and adds life to your years. It strengthens bones and improves body composition.
It makes everyday life easier and would be worth of billions of dollars if its benefits could be captured in a pill.
Leg extensions verboten? That's a blatantly wrong statement because you're using it _absolutely_.
You are wrong. It puts undue stress on the knees, even with low loads. I've had 3 knee operations (on one knee!) so I've been through a lot of PT. Open-loop exercises should just be avoided. Their closed-loop counterparts are better/just as good.
Uh, sure. Do leg extensions if you want. Generally they're frowned upon but like everything in exercise science there is some debate and shifting of opinions. Sort of like the notion that weak VMOs are the source of patellar pain and that targeting them leads to positive outcomes.
You sound like you want an argument. I'm not interested. I am proud to say I am a relative newcomer to proper strength training. I can say that your arguments do not agree with anything I've come across yet, but hey, if it works for you, go for it.
Crunches are overemphasized and should take a back seat to exercises which train your real core muscles. Most people don't need them. They need a stronger posterior chain, obliques(and all the little core muscles), back extensions and training on proper breathing.
Keyboard jockeys pretty much always have tight pec minors. I started watching other people's body mechanics years ago and I had to stop looking at my coworkers because it was distressing. Tight pecs can cause a lot of mid back problems which is how I got diagnosed.
I had this weird muscle spasm a couple inches below my shoulder blade on one side, when holding my arms out in front of me for long. Asked someone about it and they checked my shoulder rotation and told me I needed to work on that.
Test: Stand up and relax your arms at your sides. Get your arms into your most comfortable 'resting' position.
Now look at your hands. In a healthy, balanced adult body your palms are supposed to be facing each other, not pointing straight backward. When I first started working on mine, I was at almost 170 degree angle between my palms. Shoulders nearly totally rolled forward from tight pec minors. After working on it for a while I had it briefly down to around 30 degrees, but I just checked and I'm back up around 80. Back to work I guess...
A note for the "test": the problems with forearm wrist joints might tweak an angle.
After an accident with both bones broken and dislocated wrecking these in my right arm, head of ulna is out of normal placement, but I know the exact amount of force (pain is quite measurable) and direction to put my hand straight.
I like this gist of his program, but as someone who did it years ago, there's a few things I'd change.
First, remove cleans, and add barbell rows. Lots of people make this adjustment. I don't find the exercise to be beginner friendly. Second, deadlifts will be there own focused day almost immediately. Outside of one's probably first month, doing squats + bench + deadlift is nearly impossible to do in one workout.
On a personal note, I don't like his squat technique. In particular, bar placement. New people should do high-bar, exclusively. Mark's hybrid squat, and low bar squats, put a huge amount of pressure on your elbows and shoulders.
It's absolutely possible to continue doing squats + bench + deadlifts in the same workout for a very long time. After about 6 months I moved to deadlifting only once per week, but it was still done on my "heavy day" after setting PRs on my squat and press/bench press.
> Mark's hybrid squat, and low bar squats, put a huge amount of pressure on your elbows and shoulders.
I had this problem, and it turned out to be a form problem that my Starting Strength Coach fixed without switching to a different exercise. You can't do the exercise wrong and then claim there's a problem with it.
Yeah, I've been training for years and I'll still do deadlift work on a day I squat. Deadlift volume alone is so low it feels like a waste to just do that for my primary movement that day.
The only time I get shoulder & elbow pain squatting is when I'm going too heavy on volume and my form is breaking down. Otherwise I don't notice it.
The squat style has a lot to do with body types I think. His squat style completely cleared up lower back and hip pains I was having with high-bar. I think people should try both and see where their bodies are most comfortable.
Agree. Everybody’s geometry differs so choice of high or low bar will be very related to femur length vs torso length. One size fits all approach isn’t going to work for a lot of people.
I'm a big fan of HN and happy to have a reason to create an account and comment after all of these years. I thoroughly enjoy the intelligent conversation here.
As a Starting Strength Coach (there are around 130 of us), I I can confirm that a few of the comments accurately sum up the objections (rather misunderstandings) of the program that H1Supreme highlighted.
The powerclean is an important part of the novice program to build explosive power - the ability to display strength, quickly. It can be substituted by another lift, or a light deadlift day, if the trainee's injury status or age make it an unwise cost/benefit equation. But this is considered a trade-off and isn't ideal.
Yes, the powerclean is technical. So is the squat. And the press. And the bench, to a much lesser degree. Which segues into the issue mentioned in the second point. Elbow pain in the squat. As accurately described by "yepguy," this is indeed a technical error. Here's how to fix it: https://startingstrength.com/training/preventing-elbow-pain-...
A few other thoughts: pwthornton, kettle-bell cleans and snatches are not a substitute for barbell cleans and snatches. What we're chasing is adequate training stress to facilitate an adaptation. One of the primary drivers of that stress is load - weight on the bar. Kettle-bells are too light (comparatively) to create meaningful enough stress to facilitate the stress, recovery, adaptation cycle in the context of training (goal oriented exercise). More reading on the topic: https://startingstrength.com/article/training_vs_exercise
anarchodev, Rippetoe and Starting Strength are more interested in getting regular, everyday people strong than high school football players. Yes, it's a great way for getting young men big and strong (I gained 65lbs), but it's also a way to improve quality of life for octogenarians, for example. The low-bar squat is in the program versus the high bar squat because it uses more muscle mass, which means more weight on the bar can be used. Weight on the bar is the primary consideration in strength training - more of it is what's needed to get stronger. Here is a piece that analyzes the squat in detail: https://startingstrength.com/article/analysis_of_the_squat
ubercore and DataWorker, for the purposes of strength training - low bar works better. It can be applied to any body type. Shorter torso = more horizontal back angle at the bottom of the squat, and vice versa. Goal is to load the hips, which are a more robust joint than the knees and are surrounded by more muscle mass. Low-bar is not one-size-fits-all, its a model for the squat that can be applied to nearly anyone, with rare exception.
michaelgrafl the nature of goblet squats and front squats require a sub-maximal load when compared to the low bar back squat. They may be suitable for an exercise program, but they are not suitable for an efficient strength training program, and most certainly not for a novice. See comment above about training stress.
I have a ton of respect for this community and would love to interact with you guys. Let me know if I can be helpful in any way.
Definitely agree on replacing cleans with more targeted movements -- slight nitpick, none of this is "weightlifting" which is a separate sport of its own requiring these movements but incorporating power and speed to efficiently perform the snatch and clean and jerk with maximal load on the bar.
One thing to keep in mind with starting strength is that it was meant for high school football players who needed to rapidly add mass and strength. Low bar squats emphasize the posterior chain which are simply larger muscles, and will help the beginner see bigger gains faster and without spending time on the particular advanced cues necessary to perform high-bar squats correctly and safely without injuring your joints. (I'm thinking particularly of adductor strength and thoracic spine mobility.) On the other hand the low-bar squat is often coached incorrectly , resulting in much worse stress on the back and elbows (terrible cues like "knees back", etc). When taught correctly, the pressure commonly felt in the shoulders and elbows in this lift is simply a lack of flexibility and will resolve itself.
I would also find a replacement for deadlifts too. As great as they are, it's fairly difficult to find a place that would accept them. Most gyms don't like them because they create a lot of noise and possible structural damage if the weightlifting equipment is not on the ground floor.
Those sound like bad gyms. I have been to 10s of gyms in the UK and it's never been a problem. They are rarely on the ground floor and some even explained how to do deadlifts in the mandatory induction. Many gyms have platforms specifically for deadlift and sometimes proper Olympic weightlifting platforms and plates designed to be dropped from a height.
Agree with everything you said. I actually only do front squats now after a back injury from basketball. I find I can get a great squat workout with much less weight, and it forces good posture or else the bar will roll off the front of your shoulders.
Athlean-X is terrific. He is a highly accomplished physiotherapist and his videos are a treasure trove of solutions to very specific problems.
I have been following his video advice on fixing anterior pelvic tilt and lower back pain (a far too familiar problem for our types) and I can feel a tangible improvement on both fronts.
As for alternatives to crunches, variations of planks building into hanging leg raises are significantly safer.
Funny but it's true. Hell, my 3rd time deadlifting I had an appointment with my trainer and almost cancelled because of 3 different back issues which all flared up(scapular pain, mid back and a new lower back issue). I couldn't get in and out of a car without pain, but I wanted to see if things would resolve and I waited to the last minute to where I didn't want to cancel. I got to the gym and convinced myself that I could handle the movement. Put on a belt, tightened my core, and got through several sets, working my way to my PR at the time of 315. I fully expected to regret it the next day. Nope. Back felt great.
When I started doing bar squats I thought I found my favorite exercise. Then I deadlifted. I get excited thinking about them, which sounds kind of strange. The feeling I get after properly executing a heavy deadlift is... almost better than sex. My body seems to be built for the movement and moving that much weight just feels amazing. Nothing has worked my traps and hamstrings like DLs.
Muscles respond to training input much faster than tendons (which attach muscles to the bones) and ligaments (which attach bones to other bones), roughly on a scale of 6 weeks vs 6 months. This is because the muscles have a vastly greater blood supply and connective tendons & ligaments have very limited blood supply. So, it is especially critical for people who are new to weight training and those have not been in weight training for a long time to watch out for this lag.
Tendons & ligaments also take much longer to recover from injury than do muscles.
Your muscles will show measurable improvements in ability to lift more weight & do more reps within weeks. You can keep pushing it some, but be really slow and careful about it for the first couple years. Do more reps and only slowly build up the peak weights. Push it too fast and you may find yourself on the bench for many weeks with an injured tendon. This will setback your training progress far worse than managing your weight increases.
More generally, in all kinds of training, the key is that your body actually gets stronger during the rest periods after being stimulated by the training input.
Good training input actually breaks down the muscles a little bit (too much and it's just injury). The rebuilding process will rebuild them stronger to handle the input just received. So, you must train to get anything to happen, but if you train too much / rest too little, you will merely be breaking down the muscle faster than it repairs.
Another question is pain. You may often hear "push through the pain", "no pain, no gain", "pain is your friend", etc. This is partially true, but it really depends on type the pain. My general rule of thumb is: the brurning pain in your muscles that gets more intense as you get towards failure is almost always fine, push through it. But any really sharp pain that starts suddenly, in muscles or especially joints -- you are already two seconds too late -- stop the loading as quickly as you can safely do (e.g., drop the weight, but not on yourself or your spotter), in order to minimize damage. Also, immediate ice is your friend here.
Enthusiasm & vigor is great, just be sure your body also gets the time it needs to actually build the strength & fitness you seek. I encourage everyone to pursue their best fitness - enjoy it!
(Source: Fmr international competitor in several sports incl US Ski Team)
Good comment on type of pain. It’s important to realize that there is going to be some discomfort. Another thing is that the more a person lifts the less sore they get. The most sore I get now is when I come back from a 1-2 week vacation. My strength is always great, but that DOMS is rough.
Indeed -- those first workouts after an idle period - ouch!
The other thing to notice about pain and muscles vs joints (tendons & ligaments), is that you get good feedback from the muscles about how hard you are pushing -- the tiredness & burn -- so you can tell how you are doing. you need to go into that zone to really stimulate the muscle (but not so much or for so long that you break it down).
In contrast, tendons 7 ligaments give very little feedback until they are already damaged, sprained, pulled, etc. The first you hear about it is when you've gone too far.
That's why you need to be intelligent about loading them up when starting to work toward significant increases in previous strength!
There is really no need to hurry with strength training. When I started Starting Strength, I burned out after a few weeks because of too much weight, despite following common advice and really liking it in the beginning.
I'm not a fan of the No Pain No Gain philosophy. I get a lot more reps done with better recovery when I train cautiously, which means I get to do it with more consistency, which in my book is King.
Joe Rogan has a video titled "How to workout smarter" with Firas Zahabi who explains it really well. It was enlightening to me.
>Done properly, weightlifting is one of the safest sports.
The problem is that it's difficult to do properly for the average person. You can read about it and see instructions, but that doesn't tell you if you're actually doing it right. A coach might help, but then you're not dealing with the average person anymore nor do you have the freedom to choose your exercise plans, because you might not have a coach available for what you're looking for.
I wish I had known this advice about serratus anterior a year ago! I started lifting again about a year ago for the first time since I was a teenager, and started getting some shoulder pain after a few months. Strengthening my serratus anterior has helped so much, plus I can just feel my scapula moving so much more comfortably now when I reach overhead. Definitely good to strengthen these supporting muscles before going overboard with compound movements.
It's good to be thinking of this stuff though. I highly recommend Athlean-X(his free youtube videos, can't say anything about his programs) and Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength program. Between these two, I've gotten into a little weightlifting and I'm loving it. My posture is better than it's been in 40 years.
Just do yourself a favor and go slow. Muscles adapt quickly but joints take time. Lay off the creatine until you have some experience. The 2 best supplements you can take are protein and sleep. Don't forget to hydrate and don't overtrain.
If you get a trainer, get a good one. I got a bro who encouraged me to go too far too fast and now I've got a messed up shoulder. Done properly, weightlifting is one of the safest sports.
If you're a keyboard jockey like me, chances are you have weak external rotator cuff muscles, weak serratus anterior muscles, and tight pec minors. Look into correcting all of that first, before you start shredding your shoulder joint with bench presses and bicep curls.