I really miss church. Having a day where you knew you'd meet up with friendly people, have a potluck after, and maybe head to the beach, go for a hike, etc. was really nice.
It's a shame I was a fraud since I never truly believed, and eventually stopped pretending. I haven't found anything to fill that part of my life since.
Atheism will always struggle to grow its ranks until it replaces the necessary features provided by religion. I'm an atheist/agnostic who spent a few years in a very cult-like christian denomination. I can say a lot of bad things about it, but it did help me to become more social and taught me a lot about the benefits of shared beliefs. Having a network of people to call on in times of need is priceless. Regular socialization and group participation helped me graduate from being an anti-social outcast.
You can form groups around hobbies and activities, but the bonds just aren't strong enough to overcome our natural tendencies to judge others or take offense at the slightest indiscretions.
I think a lot of people like me end up Unitarian Universalists just so they can gain some semblance of a community again.
Hah, I wouldn't be shocked if we were in the same denomination. They have a bit of a cult problem (Waco comes to mind).
I have social groups around hobbies and activities, but the bonds are different, and without a shared belief (or, I often suspect, professed belief regardless of one's actual deep-down convictions) the nature of the relationships is different. I'd have sooner asked someone from church to watch my child in an emergency than someone from the homebrew club. Not that there's anything wrong with homebrew club members! It's just a different set of norms, expectations, etc. that come from being in each group. Of course, this can be stifling too. HBC members are a lot less likely to care if I'm gay, etc. (though honestly the church people, or at least those under 40, didn't seem to care either)
Unitarian Universalisy is exactly the church for atheists who see the value in the non religious parts of church. The problem is most people don't understand the value of this, so most people won't get it unless they are driven to it by religion, and religious people tend to not notice that religion isn't the main reason the good parts of church are good.
Religion is to church like the stone is to stone soup, including the part where dirt on the stone can mess up the soup.
> religious people tend to not notice that religion isn't the main reason the good parts of church are good.
I strongly disagree with this statement. While I am quite involved in my church now, and think that's great. A belief in God (independent of a congregation, and at times, in spite of the congregation) has kept me sane at the worst points in my life.
I get that you do not see the value in this -- that is your right of course. However, please do not project your feelings on religious people.
However, please do not project your feelings on religious people.
As a formerly very devoutly religious person, I have to say I agree with the parent comment that religion is the worst part of organized religion. I have been much happier (and to your point, "saner") since I stopped believing. One of the things I definitely understand but don't miss is the defensiveness that comes out when someone says they are better off without religious belief.
Returning to the main topic of loneliness/community, I think we can have a sense of shared purpose without needing a sense of higher purpose. I hope we can find a way as a society to rebuild the carrot of strong communities without needing the threat of loss of salvation as stick.
> One of the things I definitely understand but don't miss is the defensiveness that comes out when someone says they are better off without religious belief.
The "defensiveness" wasn't in response to an expression of personal experience as you claim.
The pull out quote was characterizing a diverse group of people, including scientists, scholars, and former atheists, as somehow oblivious. I think patronizing hand-waving about defensiveness is unfair.
I think you can derive benefit from a belief in God. Like your choice of religion, the characteristics of the God you choose to believe in have an effect on the costs and benefits of your belief.
I think it is laughable when non-believers deny the value of belief, as it just seems so obvious to me. That said, I choose not to believe and gain those benefits because I believe a God, as we normally conceive of, does not exist. I think of belief in God like many other concepts and ideas. Love, for instance, does not seem to exist. It is, in a way, an app you choose to run on your brain, and it comes with certain features and costs. Then again, I work in software, which I also believe does not exist, so I have a bias in that I think things do not have to exist to be powerful.
Edit: I guess I think of belief in God as a sort of 'local maxima', where it has benefits, but I'm holding out for some sort of greater maxima that can be found with a philosophy and belief system without God.
I'm baffled by the way both you (who I gather to be an atheist) and many religious people talk about believing in God as though it's something one would just choose to do, especially when it's because of how believing benefits them. It seems incredibly insincere. If X is true, Y would be wonderful, so I believe X. That's not faith, that's optimism. That doesn't work for me. X is true or it's not. Find that out, and then enjoy whatever consequences come out of that.
I believe in God, but it's because of things I've felt that seem as real to me as having seen something. Other than the fact that I can't so easily just show that to another person, the scientific method applies. Faith is then whether or not I choose to trust that and nurture that feeling and build on it or not. It's not just blind hope because it would be nice if it were true. It seems as silly to me as someone who, instead of saying "I see no evidence for God therefore I will proceed as though one doesn't exist", presumes that if there's a supreme being, they've obviously outsmarted it and spotted all the holes in their plan, thus disproving it's existence.
I've felt a very distinct and strong presence on a number of occasions, and the timing and the tone or personality of what I felt, so to speak, has usually been nudging me in a specific direction rather than just being present. I know that's hard to explain, but it's strong and distinct enough that I'm about as confident of that as I am that what I'm seeing is actually there and not all a delusion.
It doesn't require projection to make that observation. A formerly religious person could make that observation and be talking about themselves. In fact, it would be kind of strange for a non-religious person to think that a higher power is the reason for the good aspects of religion.
Sorry, but could you (or someone else) explain what you mean here? I'd really like to understand this. Are you referring to UU or atheists? What group considers rationality to be a personal choice, and in what sense?
I don't feel safe around religious people. Any place where I am required to accommodate their beliefs is not going to be a spiritual or communal place to me.
What's interesting is that your notion of 'rationality' is based in the religious beliefs of first the Greeks, then the Romans, and then Christianity. When you read non-Western philosophies, you soon realize that there are many disjointed notions of rationality.
Of course, your perception of the universalism of rational thought is due to the globalization of Western philosophy as the de facto truth -- a sort of conversion of the entire world, so to speak.
IMHO, not really. I just have a low tolerance for woo and bullshit - western, or eastern bullshit.
Fwiw, I'm not western in origin, and have spend much of my life in non-western countries. I'm not sure what you are referring to in terms 'western' vs 'eastern' philosophy, but I'm not ignorant of the various perspectives brought forward by Suffism, Jainism, Sikism, the various forms Buddhism.
If anything, the commonality of bigotry and human nature that I've witnessed living in multiple places around the globe is what makes me uncomfortable with religion. I'm not comfortable with people playing pretend. It does too much damage.
This is an example of what you seek. They pop up every now and then in my country.
Quote from website:
>The Sunday Assembly was started by Sanderson Jones and Pippa Evans, two comedians who were on the way to a gig in Bath when they discovered they both wanted to do something that was like church but totally secular and inclusive of all—no matter what they believed. The first ever Sunday Assembly meeting took place on January 6th 2013 at The Nave in Islington. Almost 200 people turned up at the first meeting, 300 at the second and soon people all over the world asked to start one. Now there are over 70 Sunday Assembly chapters in 8 different countries where people sing songs, hear inspiring talks, and create community together. Why do we exist? Life is short, it is brilliant, it is sometimes tough, we build communities that help everyone live life as fully as possible.
>>Atheism will always struggle to grow its ranks until it replaces the necessary features provided by religion
Strange claim, and wrong as well, since number of atheists/agnostics has been increasing steadily for a long time now, as fewer and fewer people identify as members of a particular religion.
> since number of atheists/agnostics has been increasing steadily for a long time now,
Worldwide or in the west? Is the number increasing as a percentage of world population, or are we only growing near the population growth rate?
If we produce a bunch of aimless atheists, we may find ourselves outbred by cultures and belief systems which find ways to encourage their adherents to procreate.
Yeah I lived that life for a while too, I was even in the church band for a bit, after I admitted atheism to myself. I loved church, except the whole god part.
It's a shame I was a fraud since I never truly believed, and eventually stopped pretending. I haven't found anything to fill that part of my life since.