Well, we are going to disagree about this, so I won't drag this on forever. However I would like to be clear about a couple things.
> And the point of community guidelines isn't to make it the community more inclusive, it's actually to make it more exclusive.
Again, mixing up behaviors and people. The whole point of community guidelines is to serve the community--to include and support a wide range of people, not a wide range behaviors. Certain behaviors just flat out drive people away--that is the very definition of exclusiveness. Being "inclusive" of these toxic behaviors leads to an exclusive culture. The worst, most exclusive cultures are the ones without guidelines, full of bad behavior. Inclusiveness requires curation of behavioral guidelines. Let's not invert the sense of words when convenient for argumentation (e.g. calling community guidelines and behavioral standards "exclusiveness" because they discourage one type of bad behavior but encourage hundreds of other good ones).
> What I find ironic is that under the aegis of "inclusivity and encouraging discussion", you are advocating for exclusion and stifling Linux Torvalds' speech.
This seems to be the crux of the issue. First, it's an exaggeration to say that advocating against using insults and inflammatory language is "stifling" (see above). I actually want Linus to speak his mind--just do so without the anger channel. It's really fucking annoying to some people. Even calling ideas stupid is really fucking annoying to the people who have those ideas. But the worst part is, for every Linus there is, there are dozens, maybe hundreds of people who are going to read something like that and just silently leave. That's a sign of a bad culture. That's toxic right there. And those people who leave are the meek ones who normally wouldn't speak up because they don't want to get the firehose and spotlight pointed right at them. They don't want their ideas called stupid or idiotic or be told they aren't dealing with reality. Those kind of people that actually can be very bright and have very different (and valuable!) perspectives. The kind of people who just disappear and you never notice. And I've met plenty of people like this--if you ever people-managed, you find out hey, this or that person is leaving, and it's because they actually really didn't like being around this group. It's a loss. Most people just don't notice, but their community just got a little worse each time that happens. So you gotta find soft ways to stop it.
At any rate. Generally your comments can be construed as a defense of people that really don't need any defense. That makes it even worse when the community explicitly stands up and defends loud, obnoxious, unnecessary behavior and lionizes these "hotheads". (To be clear, I am not suggesting you are explicitly doing that, it just has that ring to it). Trust me, hotheads need no defense. They need no coddling or encouragement to keep mouthing off. Many hotheads will stick around and annihilate a community, perhaps unconsciously, because it works. They win. So don't defend them. Defending bad behavior is a death spiral, as it sends exactly the wrong message about inclusion, and that's double bad.
It's semantics to say community guidelines serve to support a wide range of people and not behaviors. It has the same effect. It will drive away people who do not fit your definition of "good" behavior. It's no different than homophobic policies that said we don't discriminate against gays, we discriminate against "bad behavior". And certain behaviors can drive away people, but censorship definitely does.
And I have to disagree with you about the worst communities. The worst communities are those with too much guidelines. Of course some guidelines are necessary, but mostly those involving harrassment, not speech. The US is based on the idea of less guidelines. North Korea, China, Russia, etc are based on "lots of guidelines". And the death spiral can go boths ways. Just as much to totalitarianism as it can go to anarcy.
Also, it's not an exaggeration that "insults and inflammatory language" is stifling. It's the definition of it. Anything can be considered insulting to anyone. That's why we have principled understanding of free speech. The basis of free speech is that you have the right to offend. Otherwise, you claiming that the earth is round is offensive and inflammatory to a flat earther and grounds for censorship.
You seem to think that just because I think someone should be allowed to say "an argument is stupid" is me advocating for anarchy or harrassment. I'm not. Also, "insults" aren't that insulting to everyone. Language that you find offensive isn't offensive to me. And I don't consider Linux's language to be offensive. But you do. But that's the point isn't it. Everyone has a diverse upbringing and diverse opinions.
Also I'd stay away from the term "bad behavior" because that's the same terminology the chinese government uses to crack down on its own citizens and oppress them. It's rather paternalistic and authoritarian which reminds people of the worse form of nanny states.
And last thing, why do you care how linux speaks. He is his own individual. Does he come to you and tell you how you should speak? I just find it the high of arrogance that you ( a relative nobody just like me ) has the gall to tell someone like Linux how he should speak or behave. If you don't like it, just don't read what he says. That's what I find frustrating. Why do you feel like you get to tell others how to live their lives?
At the end of the day, the people at HN can do what they want because it's their property. Regular users like you and I won't change anything. Just like we aren't going to change Linux or the platform he uses to express his opinions. I wish I could have changed your mind but I think I failed so I'll just end it here too. I just find it strange that anyone on hacker news would be demanding that linus torvalds or anyone for that matter be censored.
> And the point of community guidelines isn't to make it the community more inclusive, it's actually to make it more exclusive.
Again, mixing up behaviors and people. The whole point of community guidelines is to serve the community--to include and support a wide range of people, not a wide range behaviors. Certain behaviors just flat out drive people away--that is the very definition of exclusiveness. Being "inclusive" of these toxic behaviors leads to an exclusive culture. The worst, most exclusive cultures are the ones without guidelines, full of bad behavior. Inclusiveness requires curation of behavioral guidelines. Let's not invert the sense of words when convenient for argumentation (e.g. calling community guidelines and behavioral standards "exclusiveness" because they discourage one type of bad behavior but encourage hundreds of other good ones).
> What I find ironic is that under the aegis of "inclusivity and encouraging discussion", you are advocating for exclusion and stifling Linux Torvalds' speech.
This seems to be the crux of the issue. First, it's an exaggeration to say that advocating against using insults and inflammatory language is "stifling" (see above). I actually want Linus to speak his mind--just do so without the anger channel. It's really fucking annoying to some people. Even calling ideas stupid is really fucking annoying to the people who have those ideas. But the worst part is, for every Linus there is, there are dozens, maybe hundreds of people who are going to read something like that and just silently leave. That's a sign of a bad culture. That's toxic right there. And those people who leave are the meek ones who normally wouldn't speak up because they don't want to get the firehose and spotlight pointed right at them. They don't want their ideas called stupid or idiotic or be told they aren't dealing with reality. Those kind of people that actually can be very bright and have very different (and valuable!) perspectives. The kind of people who just disappear and you never notice. And I've met plenty of people like this--if you ever people-managed, you find out hey, this or that person is leaving, and it's because they actually really didn't like being around this group. It's a loss. Most people just don't notice, but their community just got a little worse each time that happens. So you gotta find soft ways to stop it.
At any rate. Generally your comments can be construed as a defense of people that really don't need any defense. That makes it even worse when the community explicitly stands up and defends loud, obnoxious, unnecessary behavior and lionizes these "hotheads". (To be clear, I am not suggesting you are explicitly doing that, it just has that ring to it). Trust me, hotheads need no defense. They need no coddling or encouragement to keep mouthing off. Many hotheads will stick around and annihilate a community, perhaps unconsciously, because it works. They win. So don't defend them. Defending bad behavior is a death spiral, as it sends exactly the wrong message about inclusion, and that's double bad.