I'd highly recommend the triangle area in North Carolina. In Raleigh, there are a large number of tech companies, RHE, Cisco, IBM, Unreal Engine, just to name a few. It has the second highest % of computer science PhDs, and it's home to NC State, Duke University, and UNC. It's also a cultural hotspot for Blues creativity. Many of the best contemporary blues artists are located here in the triangle. The cost of living is relatively low. The rent I paid for 3 months in Redwood City, would have paid my mortgage here for 14 months. The southern part of NC is an agricultural center and thus food is relatively inexpensive. We usually spend ~500 a month.
In addition, Durham, in particular, is a melting pot of Northerners and Southerners. This has lead to some wonderful conversations where regional and cultural expectations were questioned.
Lastly, there are several startups here that are actively recruiting the best people away from the groupthink and costs that are currently dominating the bay area.
If you think you're going to have a good time living in the Carolinas, then I genuinely hope that you don't plan on being black or gay outside of a major city. There is a ton of bigotry and racism still present there, and the politicians in charge are happy to see it continue.
As a native North Carolinian who grew up in a rural part of the state, I can confirm that there is a substantial difference between the rural parts of the state, and places like the Triangle region, in this regard. There definitely are still racists, bigots, homophobes, etc. and they are more common when you get out into the country areas.
That said, it's not the case that every 3rd person you meet is a KKK member, raging homophobe, or conservative snake-handling fundamentalist who refuses to send their kids to the doctor, or any of those other stereotypes. Those people exist, but even in the rural areas they aren't necessarily ubiquitous - although this will obviously vary from region to region, town to town, and I haven't lived in every part of NC, so there are probably some spots that are especially bad that I don't know about.
But anyway, the conversation about was about living in the Triangle area around Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill, and this region seems to be in pretty good shape as far as tolerance, diversity, etc.
Born and raised in rural North Carolina. The racism and bigotry and religious zealotry is very prevalent there. Durham, Raleigh, and Charlotte are all nice cities. However, you should really stick to those areas if you're not wanting to deal with any trouble.
Some Boston University researchers have taken a recent look at structural racism across the US, and while that's not everything, it's at least a portion. They actually found that NC is one of the lesser structurally racist states.
Their analysis checks out with my memory of recent events, with IL, WI, VA, and MO ranking very highly racist.
Not sure why this user is being downvoted, what they say is true. I lived for 5+ years in the Triangle and there is a lot of racism/bigotry/misogyny present there. Its one of the main reasons I left, so it shouldn't be left out of the conversation.
It’s because they are casting a wide net on people and stereotyping them. What they say isn’t strictly false, but it’s also perpetuating a specific stereotype—the kind that if directed at others would be rightfully suppressed.
Saying that everyone there is racist would be casting a wide net. Saying that a large enough % of people are racist such that it would materially impact your quality of life if you are a PoC is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.
Except the urban areas cannot make laws they want to improve conditions - the legislators from rural areas work together to override municipal specific laws in the state legislature and further enshrine the rural hold on the legislature by making the gerrymandering better for rural areas and they are working now to stack the state supreme court. A Democrat won the governship last time round and the GOP response was to remove powers from the executive branch before the governor took office. So even if a minority percentage of the people live in rural areas, they have an outsize effect on the running of certain people's day to day lives in North Carolina.
Totally agreed. The Triangle hits a good "sweet spot" in terms of cost of living, business/career opportunity, culture, food, entertainment, etc. And we're conveniently located about 2-3 hours from beaches (depending on which beach you want to hit), or about 3.5-5 hours from mountains (depending, again, on exactly where you want to go).
One thing I really like about this area is that for a moderately sized urban area, there is a lot of nice outdoor "green space" with trails for hiking, running, and biking. Yes, if you're into MTB you're basically limited to just XC here, as we don't have the elevation change for true DH riding... but again, there are mountains about 3.5-5 hours away and you can get your fix of DH stuff there with a day-trip if needed.
It's also nice having nice places for water sports / water based recreation... you've got Jordan Lake, Falls Lake, Lake Crabtree (just don't eat the fish...), Harris Lake, University Lake, Cane Creek Reservoir, and the like.
And as others have pointed out, there are plenty of educated people here to contribute to the intellectual scene. Obviously there are the folks at Duke, UNC, and NCSU, but don't underestimate the impact of the smaller, lesser-known colleges and universities in the area either. Take NC Central, for example. They're a small HBCU located in central Durham, and have a VERY highly regarded law school for such a small school. I routinely meet people from all over the country who come here to attend NCCU Law. And you also have Shaw, Peace, Meredith, Campbell, St. Augustines, as well as Wake Tech and Durham Tech, all contributing to the base of educated people in the area.
> And we're conveniently located about 2-3 hours from beaches (depending on which beach you want to hit), or about 3.5-5 hours from mountains (depending, again, on exactly where you want to go).
This sentence really makes me rethink how much time some people routinely spend on the road. I live in Santa Monica where's it's minutes away from beaches and about half an hour away from mountains. If I just want to go there to relax, I don't want to have to spend hours just getting there.
Sure, all things being equal, being closer would be better. I grew up about 6 minutes from the beach, so I can totally relate to what you mean. But there's still a pretty big difference between being close enough that you can wake up in the morning, decide to jump in your car and go to the beach (or the mountains), and make an impromptu day trip of it, vs. being somewhere where you have to fly or drive overnight to get to the beach/mountains.
I live more centrally in LA. It can take an hour or longer for me to get to the beach in SM, Venice or, for quiter, nicer fare, Zuma. There are large portions of the city that are about the same distance or further so it takes even longer, not to mention the amount of traffic you're sitting in the whole time vs the excellent roads everywhere in North Carolina.
Also, as someone from NC, I'll go ahead an say while I'm a big fan of the dramatic scenery of the West, the coastline and beaches of NC have their own special charm, not to mention are cleaner. Only problem is, with sea level rise, the Outer Banks probably won't exit in a couple decades.
Interesting. I'd say we have an embarrassment of riches in terms of XC trails, between Lake Crabtree, New Light, Beaver Dam, Harris Lake, Little River Regional Park, Legend, Carolina North Forest, Briar Chapel, San-Lee, the RTP trails, and all the various "bandit" trails near RDU (especially Sludge, 286, and Rocky Road). And you can arguably count Angler's Ridge up in Danville since you can pop up there in a little over an hour from parts of the Triangle. And I'm not even considering some of the newer trails that I've never ridden, like Wendell Falls or Forest Ridge.
I guess it depends on what you are looking for though. For my tastes, I love parking off of Reedy Creek Road behind LCCP, and being able to ride Crabtree (fast, "flow" trails), 286 (slightly more technical than the crab), Rocky Road (very technical and challenging), Sludge (technical in spots), and then go grind out some training miles on the gravel roads in Umstead.
That said, I'm sure there are places with even more variety. But I've never suffered from a shortage of places to ride here. :-)
Totally agree about the triangle. We lived in NYC, SF, and Boston for a cumulative 15 years before choosing the triangle for exactly the reasons you mentioned. I work in tech and wanted greater intellectual and economic diversity. Durham-area coffee-shop chatter is great - in a single sitting recently I heard folks cover ground including christian theology and practice, the upcoming pride parade, backyard chickens getting over the fence, student study group plans, and tech startup challenges.
NC really is something special, and not just the triangle either. While it doesn't really have any place with a real big city vibe (and I'm saying that as a Charlotte native), there are awesome small towns and older cities all over and roads to connect to it all. The melting pot thing is true too, almost none of my NC friends have parents from there.
I think the trick is to pick any place with a college (and there are tons in NC) and the weather or lifestyle you prefer. I think Asheville and Boone are amazing for people who love mountains and dont mind colder weather for less humidity, while Greensboro and Winston would give you a lot of bang for your buck with their historic vibe and nearness to other regional hubs, and then there's even Carolina beach near Wilmington for beach fans, which is at least cheaper than some other beaches.
and then there's even Carolina beach near Wilmington for beach fans, which is at least cheaper than some other beaches.
Wilmington is a fun place in many ways. I grew up nearby (Holden Beach) and went to UNC-W and worked in Wilmington for many years. The area has a lot going for it, but in the end, I left for the Triangle region back in 2000 just because there were more business/career opportunities in the Triangle.
I think the tech scene in Wilmington has improved over the last 7 or 8 years, but at least up through 2000 (when I left) it was kind of a backwater from a tech standpoint. Programming jobs were few and far between and there weren't all the user groups and tech events and things you get here in the Triangle.
Anyway, I'd encourage anybody considering Wilmington to really research the job scene and see what's going on in their industry there, before committing.
I lived in Durham from 10 to when I started college (travelling back during breaks etc), and I loved it. I agree with you on every point, the triangle is fantastic.
Just to reiterate: great food, great music, real diversity.
I came here to recommend the same. I moved from the RTP area to SV a couple years ago and my family were very happy in NC. Among other things, we sold our 4300sqft house in a beautiful suburban neighborhood for $510k ... in order to buy a 1700sqft house in San Jose for $1.35m. <banghead>
I lived in this part of NC for 13 years and am happy to answer questions.
I moved from Seattle to Chapel Hill about a year ago (also grew up in Durham, a lot longer ago). I second everything cbarnes89 said, and I'd add that there's a small but growing Microsoft office in Morrisville.
I'd second that recommendation. I live just down the road in Wilmington, NC. I would love to move to the Triangle area. There's so much of everything there. But I like my job here in Wilmington and instead of 4 hours to the ocean I'm, like, 15 minutes.
For family reasons we've been considering a move into the area, but looking at job listings things seem scant. Wondering if any commenters here have input of what's available there.
I grew up in Raleigh (born, elementary school through NC State) there and recently moved north to start my first job...IMO, the jobs with competitive compensations just don't exist in Raleigh at the new grad level. Almost all of the top students that I know of move to Seattle, NYC, SF etc after graduating.
Housing is also surprisingly expensive in the nicer parts of town given the necessity for a car. With that said, it's a great option if you're comfortable with the opportunities here and want to settle.
This is not true at all in my experience. What compensation number do you think is fair for new CS grads?
10 years ago new CS grads were getting 60k/yr and moving up quickly. Now that I often hire for the area, it's closer to 70k in my experience. Yes, you can move to SFO and make 90k, or more? But you have to adjust drastically for cost of living. Perhaps you get better RSUs and free lunch?
Once you get more senior salaries the salaries are even more competitive. The only thing that doesn't seem popular is huge pile of RSUs that you'd get working for one of the SFO companies.
90k is considered very low today overall. The average new grad gets like ~150ish, give or take 20. If you get a big signing bonus like they do at Facebook it goes up to 225k+ TC for the first year. My friend graduating this year just signed an offer for ~210k first year at a trading company.
It’s definutely worth it to chase the money out of undergrad IMHO.
What to grads typically do with all that money. I started on about $30k and it was more than enough. Is it all squirreled away for the future? I'd hope so!
In addition, Durham, in particular, is a melting pot of Northerners and Southerners. This has lead to some wonderful conversations where regional and cultural expectations were questioned.
Lastly, there are several startups here that are actively recruiting the best people away from the groupthink and costs that are currently dominating the bay area.