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Our path to listing SEC-regulated crypto securities (coinbase.com)
153 points by troydavis on June 7, 2018 | hide | past | favorite | 146 comments



> If approved, Coinbase will soon be capable of offering blockchain-based securities, under the oversight of the US Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority (FINRA). This step forward is being made possible by our acquisition of a broker-dealer license, an alternative trading system license (ATS), and a registered investment advisor (RIA) license.

> ...

> This is all being enabled by our acquisition of Keystone Capital Corp., Venovate Marketplace, Inc., and Digital Wealth LLC.

If I’m understanding this correctly it’s very impressive. They were able to acquire existing companies with those licenses and convince the SEC to let them retain and expand them to cover the entire business. It’s like the reverse acquisitions of small banks to enable a new player into the tightly regulated bank market (which is an incredible pain to get new approval for), but now applying it to crypto.


This is relatively standard practice in the broker-dealer space. (It’s how I started my first company.)


Interesting.

Slight off-topic looking at your profile, it says "Trade private equity stakes in technology companies". Curious how does that work?


You need to know a lot of people. Connect buyers and sellers. Maybe look for a cofounder of a successful business who wants out and find a strategic VC or other firm who wants in. Should be able to understand the product and build/show the value proposition in numbers. Maybe that means looking at financials and building projections for your clients.


What is your e-mail address?


Will one of y'all just post whatever this person emails you?


Reachable via any of my accounts tied to keybase if that helps (including the email tied to my key). Thanks for accommodating the widening list!


Interested too. simone at fabrica dot city


triumphantcoder at google's mail dot com


also interested, zencash64 at gmx dot com


jk at ptscientists dot com


mail at asselinpaul dot com


knouroozi at gmail dot com


simon at craftworks dot at


seantommurray@gmail.com


Adding to this: you have to do a lot of research to make sure you get a 'clean' BD, though. There's a real risk that the company you bought it from has hidden future litigation. If they were engaging in illegal activity and the SEC takes a long time to build the case, you now own the civil liability for those actions.


Tzero (overstock.com) did the same thing last year so Coinbase isn’t even the first to do this in the crypto space.


tZERO looks like it's raising money from investors. That seems a bit different than listing SEC regulated crypto currencies.

https://www.startengine.com/tzero?no_newsletter=1

> The tZERO token will pay 10% of adjusted gross revenue to token holders on a quarterly basis, subject to board approval and the conditions outlined in the offering memorandum

I want to compete with Angels and VC's for investment in early stage companies. Where can I do that? I don't want to invest in a fund and AngelList isn't "democratizing" shit.


They bought a broker dealer and ats prior to their current capital raise. They want their token to be the first of many sec regulated crypto assets on their regulated exchange.


As JumpCrisscross said, this is very common. Shortcuts the process considerably and there are a fair amount of failing B/Ds out there.


>> This step forward is being made possible by our acquisition of a broker-dealer license (B-D), an alternative trading system license (ATS), and a registered investment advisor (RIA) license.

Great sentence in the press release. My thought was that someone (obviously would be Coinbase given their massive amounts of funding) was out looking for a BD. But they went a step further with the ATS and RIA licenses.

Coinbase is, in some sense, "backdooring" their way to becoming regulatory compliant in the US. That's fine - its a way of jump starting the process.

What it ultimately means is: 1. more legitimacy for crypto as they are now regulated by the FINRA and the govt (SEC) 2. If Crypto continues it slow rise - every BD and ATS will get into the game. So expect some realignment in this space.


I wonder what the account requirements are for a BD. Will they have to deny services to foreigners and kids?


I do not believe there is any US regulation that denies brokerage accounts to foreigners or minors. If they do, it may be an independent decision by brokerage firms simple because they don't want to deal with the extra paperwork.

Being a BD means a whole ton of paperwork, compliance and regulation. You have to abide by KYC and AML rules (Know Your Client and Anti-Money Laundering). People in charge of accounts need to become registered reps and take 1 of the Series Exams administered by FINRA. I imagine there will be some changes to incorporate crypto into the licensing.


Buying ... expanding... when they cannot reply to a support email for more than a month. This is one of the most customer unfriendly companies.


I was pissed for a moment.

I couldnt get my BTC during the last bull run. But I was lucky since by the time I got my account the price went from 7k to 19k.

Sold all my BCH at 3.5k/coin, and sold a half of a bitcoin at 14k.

Yeah I ended up having to pay 50 dollars in credit card interest, but I was going to be selling my BTC at 7k/coin and that was before they released BCH.


Try six months on funds they made disappear from open orders. Even their own reports show the missing funds - still, support slow as a snail. The exchange space needs more competitors, but it looks like you need bank level funding to pull that off.


At that point I'd suggest it's not support you need to be talking to, it's a lawyer.


https://levelplayingfield.io/party/non-consumer-coinbase-inc

File for arbitration. You’ll win or they’ll settle.


If they can afford that it means they have Google like market potential


Or they are lacking proper incentive? :)


They're now, or soon to be, SEC regulated. Maybe contact them?


This a great step in the right direction for the post-ICO-craze phase. Once we are over the bullshit utility tokens we can go back to building valuable companies with a whole new way of funding them.


>we can go back to building valuable companies

Like what?

>with a whole new way of funding them.

What's wrong with US Dollars?


Crypto securities don't replace the US dollars. They replace the shares you're buying when you invest in a company. You are welcome to use US dollars for that if you want. Chances are depending where the companies are based, getting the money in USD to them could be tricky though.

What company people are going to build is anyone's guess, but mine is that there's going to be a lot of them. Silicon Valley is only but a small dot on the face of the Earth. A lof of potential is going to be unlocked.


Shares provide ownership and voting. Tokens provide .. no legal guarantees of anything at all?


Not all shares provide voting, as I'm sure you are aware of.

But essentially, the paper the shares are printed on doesn't provide any legal guarantees by itself either. The fact that ownership is tokenized doesn't prevent companies from issuing guarantees to token holders.

See my comment on the comment next to yours for more:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17255832


Explain how crypto-tokens are going to enable the vast amount of rights shareholders get in a company. Can crypto holders vote on the direction of the company, compel changes in the board, etc? If not, there's no reason for them to exist, because those rights are the entire reason one buys stock.


There's no technical reason why that can't be the case. Legally, I agree.


My point is, for anything like a crypto-security, you have to integrate with meatspace, which requires the introduction of legal agreements (because there's nothing about 0s and 1s in ledger that can compel company representatives to act in a certain way). At that point you've completely gotten rid of decentralization, and you might as well use a more robust, faster, and environmentally friendly centralized option.


Conventional paper-type legal agreements exist already for this kind of thing, and will mature further as jurisprudence and experience are developed. They don't introduce much centralization that I can think of. They are mostly P2P agreements about the guarantees given to token holders.

On top of that, smart contract mediated investments can have much more additional guarantees. Projects like Aragon are creating DAO governance UIs that are on-chain, usable (from a UX perspective) and transparent for token holders. They allow holders to vote on transfers of funds, or monthly capital allocation, with the possibility to withdraw funds if they deem the operation of companies irresponsible. This a programmable financial infrastructure: the tools are there to build whatever you can come up with in terms of governance.

Besides DAO governance platforms, what will compel executives, for the cases where this applies, is the same thing that compels them right now: financial incentives, and the threat of prosecution. Are the guarantees comparable to those you get from a CEO on a NYSE traded company? Not by a long shot, this is the wild west right now.

But in keeping with the "Internet of Money" metaphor from my other comment, lack of controls and accountability didn't prevent Wikipedia from displacing the Encyclopedia Britannica.


You're missing the point. Blockchain tokens are worse than centralized alternatives in most ways, so if the integrity of a financial security is codified through law then there is no need to pay the expensive costs to also have it codified as a blockchain token, especially because the law is the ultimate arbiter of the security's qualities and capabilities not a blockchain. A blockchain is useful when it can establish consensus rules around a system that is not controlled by a centralized authority, but if a centralized authority is already necessary to recognize the asset, the cost of decentralized consensus is unnecessary and thus wasted.


There is not much that is centralized about "the law", and "the law" isn't really a mechanism for modeling and trading securities. To some extent, by the same logic, the Internet is inherently a centralized platform (because it's governed by law as well) and would therefore be better if replaced by AOL.

I looked at your comment history and it seems you are assuming that people with a so called "pro blockchain" angle are all missing the point. I assure you not everyone in the space is an idiot, and you might be missing some points yourself.


> There is not much that is centralized about "the law"

Perhaps, but the SEC is pretty centralized, when two people can't come to an agreement then securities law enforced by the legal system determines the outcome of the dispute not smart-contract rules enforced by blockchain consensus.

> * I assure you not everyone in the space is an idiot, and you might be missing some points yourself.*

I don't think they're idiots, I think they're financially and emotionally invested in a fascinating technology that's not very useful. I don't think anything is wrong with that, and maybe one day I'll be proven wrong, but I have worked in this space (backend engineer for an exchange) and continue to follow it closely but skeptically and with good reason if you're intellectually honest about the track record of this industry.


What's exciting to me about this is that it could enable trading of these crypto securities outside of typical brokers/exchanges, as well as derivative securities (ie. hold an index of crypto securities, rebalancing from in/out flows from those who buy/trade on the derivatives).

Honestly, I can see an "regulated"[0] crypto securites derivative market being deeper than the underlying crypto securites themselves since they'll trade more OTC.

[0] To the same degree that any government can regulate trade of their currency/debt on global markets.


Why would I want a crypto token instead of shares, though? With shares, I have ownership in the company, and I have a number of rights. With a token, I have precisely squat.


See my replies to the other 2 comments adjacent to yours.


Binance made more money than Deutsche Bank last year. They funded growth with an ICO.

> What's wrong with US Dollars?

It's not a good store of value over the long haul:

https://visual.ly/community/infographic/economy/purchasing-p...


>”It's not a good store of value over the long haul”

Well sure, but no one is storing their wealth in USD. You use it to purchase assets. What store of value can you purchase with BTC without first converting to USD?

>”Binance made more money than Deutsche Bank last year. They funded growth with an ICO.”

Concentrated more wealth, you mean. What, exactly, did they contribute to the economy? At the very least, banks provide liquidity. The furthest I can gather of any crypto company mission is “make money”.


Soon enough, potentially, tokenized securities that represent shares of anything you can think of.


The cost of tracking and trading securities tokens isn't the reason for why there aren't shares for 'anything you can think of'.

Is this actually solving a real problem that someone has?


I am in Argentina. I can do an investment on a company being founded in France tomorrow and cash out in 3 months on a secondary market to a buyer in Angola. The friction involved in doing this in a pre-crypto world makes it a non-starter.

One of the reason VC has its characteristic geographical distribution is because exit opportunities are extremely localized. No more.

This in turn unlocks a ton of talent-capital synergy opportunities for a myriad of projects outside of the large tech hubs.


But you're not doing it because of any intrinsic property of crypto-coins. You're doing it because they haven't been regulated yet. (I am not implying any ill intent on your part.)

You could do the same thing with normal investments, if trading houses and banks didn't do any KYC checks.


I don't know about "intrinsic". No other asset class has the same characteristics. It's making investments viable that were not viable before.

No regulation exists now in conventional banking that prevents me from doing that investment without crypto. It's just not practical and therefore unviable. I would need to surf through 3 different bureaucracies in 3 different languages and currencies. If you are doing this kind of thing, it's in your best interest to always do KYC, mostly not for AML - just for general due diligence purposes.

The fundamental thing is disintermediation, not deregulation. Regulation might be able to kill the space, but it would really be a triumph of the incumbents over a real progress opportunity.

PS I'm going at it from the investor angle here but it goes without saying that enabling investment enables entrepreneurship.


The only reason Crypto has those characteristics is because most of the crypto trading platform flat out ignore the law.


> it's in your best interest to always do KYC

And why will this never hold for similar transactions done on the blockchain?


I meant that for VC-type deals done on the blockchain.


I'm working on trading an security, but it will not be done on blockchain.

Blockchain is expensive and slow. Centralize it and be a business that provides a good customer experience.


>> Soon enough, potentially, tokenized securities that represent shares of anything you can think of.

Do you think they will actually represent shares?

As far as I can tell, all current ICOs have not represented any ownership or share of anything, other than the token itself.


Most ICOs don't sell security tokens. They sell utility tokens. But many ICOs have happened that sold security tokens, they just tend to be more discreet these days because of the limits on public security offerings. The security token space is also very immature still.

On the other end of the discreetness spectrum, The DAO was a security ICO and it was the largest crowdsourced project in history at the time.


They also tended to be the, "We have all the money, now let's bail" kind of tokens.


Really? Can you point to a single security token issuance that was an exit scam?



I am not familiar with any exit scam that was done based on issuing crypto-powered company shares, which is the topic of discussion. None of the ones you mentioned seem to fall into that category. Most are MLM type stuff.

Where you got the idea that I'm denying the existence of ICO scams, I'll never know.


>Well sure, but no one is storing their wealth in USD.

My grandma did. 10,000 dollars when I was born into a bank account for college.

I think it was worth ~11k 27 years later since I ended up paying for college with work.

Ended up spending it on my house. If that 10k was invested... whew...


No one stores their wealth in USD because it's not a good store of value.

> What store of value can you purchase with BTC without first converting to USD?

Switching out to gold from BTC is pretty painless.


Bitcoin has crazy volatility compared to gold and even USD. Sure, you can use it for speculation, but no one in their right mind uses Bitcoin as a store of value.

People just hope that someone else will use it as a sure if value, so that the price rises and they get rich off it. Ie, speculation.


To the person saying they've stored Bitcoin value for 8 years: on a grand scale, you are an exception.

Many people who started using Bitcoin last year lost a lot of their value.


I also made more money than Deutsche Bank last year.

"Deutsche Bank reports pre-tax profit of 1.3 billion euros and net loss of 0.5 billion euros for 2017"


They made more profit than deutsche bank? Do you have a source?


You and I likely made more profit than Deutsche Bank. They haven't been profitable in 3 years. http://money.cnn.com/2018/02/02/investing/deutsche-bank-loss...



The writing of that article gave me an mind-sore. Cannot respect that source whatsoever.


Especially considering that approx. 90% of the volume of crypto exchanges -with the exception of U.S exchanges- (therefore Binance included) is what's commonly referred to as "wash trading". I'd estimate Binance's 1Y EBTDA to be $100M at best, but I suspect it's way lower.


>What's wrong with US Dollars?

Its controlled by the Federal Reserve which is partly controlled by the government.

Basically your USD is worth what the central bank says they are worth. A new war? Your dollar loses value. Out of control debt? Print more money.

Bitcoin has 21,000,000 solutions ever ever ever.


Uh, the US is at war now in Afghanistan and until 2011 was at war in Iraq. The USD is fine.

If WWIII breaks out, I’m betting the Internet (in its current open and international form) will be an early casualty. How’s that going to work out for bitcoin exactly?


Speak for yourself, ive seen inflation numbers around 4% since 2001.

The only reason consumer goods are the same cost is because the exponential increase in technology and productivity.


And that doesn't mean a thing for the value of an individual Bitcoin. Just like the USD, it's worth something because people say it's worth something.


The quantity is the big deal.

Tomorrow there will be more USD than yesterday. This isnt true for BTC.


Considering BTC is infinitely divisible, that doesn't matter.


I found spending time learning economics and marketing changed my understanding of the world.

I think it would be very beneficial for everyone(especially HN crowd) to learn this.

Your sentence isnt important.


Assuming that people who disagree with you do it only because they "don't understand economics" (here's a huge hint: That's not why at all) is extremely uncivil and dismissive.

In the same token, I can easily say that the only reason you are in favor of these things is because you've forgotten the last couple hundred years of economic history.


Except the 'new paradigm' still requires fiat banking and all of the same security laws you will expect.

I think when SEC declares Ethereum as security by end of this year, it will be the end of ICO.


It requires fiat banking less than you might think, depending on what you are doing and what jurisdiction you are in. I am in Argentina. I don't personally do it, but I know a lot of people that live on cryptocurrency salaries (not "crypto gains" but actual money paid to them periodically in a cryptocurrency).

I find your last statement extremely unlikely. I think Ethereum has a pretty solid utility story (and I'm definitely not putting Ethereum in the "bullshit utility" bucket). Making Ether a security would severely handicap the US as a jurisdiction for what could eventually be a huge new industry. If you look at the statements from the SEC and CFTC chairs in congress this is stated pretty openly.

I think a useful metaphor is to think of cryptocurrencies as the "Internet of money". Handicapping the Internet might have been possible before the Internet, but these days, people will find a way to operate businesses in new jurisdictions that are more friendly (because they will use the Internet to figure it out together). And crypto money might go to these jurisdictions just as fast, since it's not hampered by banking regulations.

With that being said, it's hard to figure out the outcomes of such a complex landscape with so many forces at play. But there's my alternate view for you to consider.


You need fiat banking to cash in and cash out. You are at the mercy of the fiat banking stakeholders.

You can create any crypto currency but if nobody can buy it with cash or sell it for cash, it's worthless.

SEC has already announced they are looking at Ethereum as security, insiders have already sold according to rumours, because they are being targeted by the SEC-

Turns out if you sell tokens with expectation of investment returns, you've entered the danger zone unwittingly.

According to my sources, the SEC has Vitalik in crosshairs. He's fucked...but he doesn't know it yet


I didn't make it explicit in my previous comment but in Argentina you don't need to use a bank to get your hands on physical cash for your cryptocurrencies, in the same way you don't need to go to a bank to buy US dollars with Argentinean pesos.


You don’t need fiat, you can sell your startup shares for AAA bonds, both denominated in ETH. Treat the bonds like a checking account.

Technically you could buy coffee with a fractional share of a goat or similar. Once a critical mass of securities are tokenized, we enter essentially the “Infinite Currencies” phase of money where there’s no difference between assets and currencies in terms of ease of spending.


> SEC has already announced they are looking at Ethereum as security,

Got a cite?


Yes I don’t think that’s accurate. The SEC chairman in a cnbc interview the other day said that bitcoin will count as a currency while ICO tokens as assets. When asked explicitly about ethereum he said roughly that they haven’t decided yet.


My plan to sidestep these regulations is to take an existing cheap chain and launch a product on it, without consent or communication with stakeholders. I will buy a large percentage of the chain before doing this, of course. Maybe plug it into zrx so the conversion is automatic for the end user. Just another launch cost and I can avoid the SEC entirely.


Do you think that the SEC won't still come after you? That they'll just go, "Drat, we must've been outsmarted!"


I won't be creating an expectation of value. If I were to do this on ethereum, for instance, no one would bat an eye. It would be just another dapp.


But then you don't get any funding? Unless you pump the coin in which case the SEC will still be coming.


I generally don't seek funding for my apps. I instead just build them with a monetization path attached. What I would aim to do is to boost a crypto community coin with adoption. My monetization would be to sell the ownership I have of the coin when the dapp is in use.

I don't know if it's legal according to the SEC. I would love some clarity.


You will come to see that the transfer restrictions imposed on securities will always leave room for utility tokens which do not fall under the same.


Utility tokens are fine. They are just a waste of time in most cases, since they introduce a complex mechanic that is only needed for the purpose of monetizing the platform growth (therefore everything needs to be a "platform" where there are these security-like things moving around).

I think a lot of the scare about securities is going to go away and a market will evolve with proper jurisdictions that are friendly to this.

Keep in mind that most so-called utility tokens today fail the Howey test and 10 get issued every minute. Yet no one will list a self-proclaimed security token. The big difference, I think, is that the perception of wrongdoing is very different, even if the wrongdoing itself is very similar.


This sounds great until people realize that only qualified investors will be allowed to trade security tokens.


Social network Gab is attempting to issue security tokens [1] under Regulation A+, which allows the general public to invest. The SEC hasn't approved it yet.

[1] https://www.startengine.com/gab-select


People here hate Gab and its founder. He's quite unpleasant. Expected to be downvoted into hell.


Gab and it's crowd are quite abhorrent, but I don't think most people here are going to care about the mention that they're trying to do a token.


He was kicked out of HN. You underestimate how petty the mods here can be.


I don't think kicking the guy behind "Twitter, but for White Supremacists" is petty. But I also don't think that the mere mention that they're doing a token in a comment is going to be that harshly dealt with.


I wonder if the internet will stop.

I dont expect them to regardless what the US government says.

Plenty of countries would need to all-align and send cops to stop nerds from programming.


Komodo and a few other decentralized exchanges break this issue pretty easily. Same reason privacy coins cannot be shut down.


That's incorrect. Tokens can prevent their transfer to parties that don't have the proper KYC. The smart contract decides that.


That's a cool point. I wonder what can be done to bypass such a restriction? Maybe if you had a contract like WETH that wrapped accredited-only tokens in a proxy token.


Pay someone from another country to do KYC for your address.


just buy them on other exchanges and hodl for the pump


It's super easy to fake KYC because the kind of KYC that players in the crypto space are doing is child's play.


Repeatedly blows me away how nonchalantly the cryptic trendy community treats wilful fraud.


What are you referring to as fraud?


Faking KYC is fraud. Doing it to open a securities account is securities fraud. E-mailing it is wire fraud. Et cetera.


And speeding is against the law as well. Is HN bible club now?


[removed]


Presumably the part where you fraudulently faked KYC stuff.


So a checkbox or screenshot for KYC is going to fly with the SEC?

They aren't going to go after retail investors.


> They aren't going to go after retail investors

I work in the securities business. We once had someone send in a suspected altered document. Their state AG was notified, the U.S. Treasury and Homeland Security were notified, the SEC and FINRA were notified, and then we got some questions from Interpol, in Europe, and the UK's financial crimes investigator (through federal law enforcement). Fraudulently opening a securities account rings red-hot alarm bells because the automatic suspicion is nobody would be that brazenly stupid unless their expected pay-off was huge, i.e. terrorism or large-scale money laundering.


Do you let customers open up an account without a social security number and a screenshot as proof of identity and KYC? You are uninformed about this industry.


If the crux of your plan is, "We're going to lie to the federal government about what we're doing, and hope that we're small enough that no one notices," you've got a pretty big flaw in your plan.


Who is talking about lying to the government? You are misrepresenting what I am saying.


If all of AAPL stock is tokenized, and someone hacks a custodian of say 30% of AAPL, is the hacker now owner of 30% of AAPL?


The hacker would suddenly discover the various international justice systems.

The tokens would be tainted, unspendable, and worthless.

A wild guess at the potential reward for unmasking the hacker? ($950B * 0.3 * 0.001 --> ~300 M USD).

After the first such hack, companies might add a clause to the bylaws enabling the company to re-issue stock to the aggrieved party, restoring balance to the universe.


> The tokens would be tainted, unspendable, and worthless.

No they wouldn't because the whole "decentralized system" makes it so you have to get EVERYONE to agree to blacklist those tokens BEFORE THEY ARE TRADED or else it fails because the hacker can tumble those tokens across dozens of different cryptocurrencies on every exchange across thousands of accounts. You will never be able to hard fork every cryptocurrency for 1 mistake.

The only hack that I have ever heard of that was successfully reversed was the DOA and that was because they had 30 days to work out a hard fork on 1 wallet!

Cryptocurrencies are good for one thing only and that is blackhats.


It only takes a few countries imprisoning people who trade in tainted coins/tokens before they become untouchable.

Public ledgers are public. If the US IRS, perhaps coordinated with Interpol, publishes a blacklist of coins, those coins are toast.


Uh, so wait. If the IRS/Interpol becomes an effective source of truth on which coins may be legally transferred and who rightfully owns them, what was the point of the blockchain?


We are all going to find out.

At the very least, the blockchain provides a degree of global immutability that was previously impossible.


That immutability is terrible feature. Type one letter wrong on your wallet address and your money is gone forever.

I myself have experienced something similar when a bank teller provided me with a routing number from a chase bank in a different state then I originally set up my account. Thus, my entire direct deposit pay for a month of $6,000 went to an account set for a chase routing number in a different state. Fortunately, I went to the bank soon after and they fixed it by putting the money in my proper account.

If they had used a cryptocurrency, I would have lost an entire months pay.


You have something like a 1 in 4 billion chance of entering a valid bitcoin address if you made a typo, whether it's "one letter wrong" or some other combination of changes (there's a 32 bit checksum). So actually this never happens.


This sort of thing happens all the time. Hackers routinely attack web sites and change wallet addresses [1]. They setup fake Twitter accounts, fake web sites, muck up exchanges with fake listings, and in some cases even hold fake investor meetings. By some estimates hackers have stolen $400m from ICOs [2]. All of this nonsense is possible precisely because crypto transactions are irreversible so the currency users have absolutely no recourse.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/17/coindash-website-hacked-7-mi...

[2] http://fortune.com/2018/01/22/ico-2018-coin-bitcoin-hack/


Yes, cryptocurrency institutions get hacked and their customers lose money (more often proportionately, it seems, than their dollar equivalents). I was replying, however, to the ill-founded claim that people lose money by mistyping a single wrong letter in a bitcoin address.


Does a BTC address that does not exist cause an error or does it go into oblivion until someone happens to generate a key that matches it?


Goes into oblivion. How would you send funds to a newly created address if that wasn't the case? The bitcoin network doesnt know which addresses are ready to be used on the network and which aren't since there isn't any setup the address does with the network prior to being operational.


So the money goes into oblivion. In the meantime, I'm still out my month's pay, and I can't get it back.


Who are you going to imprison? By the time you realize you have been hacked, your coins will have been traded to dozens of other cryptocurrencies across thousands of different wallets.

Is your plan to screw over all the original traders who exchanged tokens with the original blackhat?


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2315

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_of_stolen_goods

At the very least, those who inadvertently purchase stolen property tend to have to return it to the victim of the original crime.

https://nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu/must-a-pawn-shop-return-st...

TL;DR: Yes. That is how the existing legal system works. If you think something might be stolen, don't buy it.


A double-spend attack is more subtle, as the correct resolution is less clear. The law is pretty good at handling theft and fraud, though, so I suspect a reasonable solution can be worked out in short order.


I think it's safe to assume that all of us are going to be cashing in on that "may you live in interesting times" curse.


Of course not, they will just hard-fork the chain!


Which has its own problems; it's the equivalent of restoring a backup, and you lose the past x hours / days of all transactions. It's not something you want to be able to do in a blockchain intended for contracts or currency. And what happens to people that exchanged real money for BTC or in this case AAPL shares? It's like err, a double spend but without any winners.


Hard forking doesn't necessarily mean the newly forked chain starts from the state as it was at the time of the change you want to undo. Notably the ETH/ETC hard fork happened much later.


What is sad is that the competition is at the legal level, US has a regulation complexity, and no fintech sandbox, that makes almost impossible to compete.

It is like Uber where you can explain the funding in terms of legal expenses because technically everything else is relatively simple.


I for one am looking forward to the securitization/tokenization of student loans


When are token default swaps coming?



Has the SEC classified crypto coins yet as securities or commodities?


apart from saying that bitcoin isn't a security, no. Just yesterday this infuriatingly vague video came out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YtZJRUak8E

But they refused to actually say if any specific coin was/wasn't a security besides bitcoin.


Some are securities and some are commodities. Generally it's a security if there was an ICO.




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