I am incredibly lonely. Health and financial circumstances pushed me into the worst possible social situation...isolated in rural unconnected America where the only two people I regularly see resent me and it has had a severely negative effect on my already miserable health over the years. Being middle aged it magnifies the issue as it's harder to connect as you age anyway due to life's progression. I saw huge numbers of older people in my previous work who were so terribly alone. It's hard enough when young.
A "remote social life" is not even close to the same thing and chats online or the phone with "disposable friends" and strangers who have a clear and easy disconnect from your real life don't fill the hole a lack of enduring, present human contact leaves and usually take precious energy with no real benefit. Even though I am an extremely introverted person by most standards I still need social connection to thrive and have felt the best living in big cites with lots of options but I can't find a way back.
> A "remote social life" is not even close to the same thing and chats online or the phone with "disposable friends" and strangers who have a clear and easy disconnect from your real life don't fill the hole a lack of enduring, present human contact leaves and usually take precious energy with no real benefit.
Maybe this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Anecdotally, I and others I know have formed deep, meaningful relationships with people online. I think the hardest part of that is finding small communities - i.e, it's hard to make meaningful connections in a sub-reddit filled with 100,000 people, but in niche forums and chatrooms, with userbases in the dozens, I think it's much more feasible.
I've been in this situation to worsening degrees for 15 years...It really upsets me to hear people say I am causing it (self fulfilling) or not doing it right. I am glad you were able to make connections online...it's not something that replaces that need in me. I need real life face to face interaction. It is also farther down the list than my immediate problems and having a new friend is not going to fix my life or even make it bearable right now...I know for some people solidarity in suffering helps but relationships of any kind drain me with all thats going on and I have to ration my energy. The loss of connections is just another effect of my major issues that piles on and without addressing those the rest can't change.
Sorry if I sound rude...I don't intend it. It's just so hard to hear the same "just get a hobby" or "just make friends online" or "you must just be doing it wrong since it works for me" stuff repeatedly. If it were something that worked for me I'd be doing it because this life is pure misery for me from most all angles.
>Sorry if I sound rude...I don't intend it. It's just so hard to hear the same "just get a hobby" or "just make friends online" or "you must just be doing it wrong since it works for me" stuff repeatedly. If it were something that worked for me I'd be doing it because this life is pure misery for me from most all angles.
I have found it enlightening to try to view fiscal and relational matters with the lens of the other. Imagine if I made a post telling a poor individual that they should "just go learn some job skills", "learn to code", or "they must be doing it wrong because I've found it easy to get a decent job". Such a post would be viewed as profane. Being a libertarian on fiscal matters gets me labeled as heartless, yet I find libertarian is the best approximate description of the system everyone operates on with regards to relational matters. I've heard many people describe the libertarian approach to helping others as "I've got mine, F you", which is the way I feel treated as a 'socially poor' person. To even bring up the topic of relationship resources/needs being unequal has gotten me some very negative labels in other online communities.
You don't come off as rude and I didn't mean to imply you're causing it; sorry if my comment was upsetting. I was trying to point out that it's easy to get stuck in your kind of situation and become, for lack of a better word, pessimistic. Obviously everyone is different and, as you say, "online socialization" may just not fill that need for you (and others). Given the situation of relative isolation physically / geographically ("rural unconnected America"), I was only trying to offer the idea that connecting to people online can be possible for some, though it does take time and effort which may be hard to expend after years of feeling there is no return on that investment. Again, apologies if I painted with too broad a brush.
I'm not a programmer, cryptographer, sysadmin etc but I like tech and find this site refreshing because of the politeness and respect in interactions like this one. I can apologize and it will be taken at face value, and someone can apologize to me and its sincere. I've been missing that sort of mature intellectual/emotional honesty in interaction irl and online for a long time. So thanks :)
>I'm not a programmer, cryptographer, sysadmin etc
WELL THERE'S YOUR PROBLEM!
I'm a latecomer to two of those three things, but they're tremendous specs for shut-ins! Due to tons of moving, the most and best friends I've ever had have been people online, so maybe my psyche is too warped to feel the lack of physical interaction. In fact, I think the real world is a terrible place[0], and my ability to express myself is much greater here. But online social life is much like real life social life; friends come and go, enemies are eternal, and, if you don't try to meet new people, making new connections becomes harder. Enter programming and nerd stuff. I've become more disconnected from my online friends, most of them non-technical, as I sank deeper in an online introversion of stuff they can't relate to like makefiles and Linux. I've become less interested in things that aren't those things, eroding our common ground. I can't even hold conversations anymore unless they're about how awful Gnome 3 is! Conversely, contact with the VERY FEW nerdy friends I've had and still find is higher than ever, but that's a small crowd. And they can't like me that much because most of them are smarter than me, so all I do is leech them for knowledge, which is not how you build a healthy relationship, hesti -- it's gotta be a symmetric take AND give!
But they don't have to like me; I like them, and I'm locked in an eternal struggle of autism to feel several human emotions.
A lot of people in Spain hang out by appearance, to show. Even a lot of people do this at bars to drink or have fake talks about soccer so they are not seed as nerds/freaks.
There is a lot of hypocrisy in society.
I would like to be more North-European: just hang out by pleasure, not from habit doing it meaningless.
This is probably going to sound like terrible advice, but I'd pick up an MMO. If you're stuck in a rural area and have physical issues with travel or can't afford it, your options for face-to-face contact are pretty much nil. Games with a heavy social component at least get you some parts of human contact - chat, voice, group problem solving and objectives, something in common to discuss.
I don't think "deep, meaningful relationships with people online" can truly be effective as a solution until we solve the "endorphins/oxytocin/dopamine deficiency problems". As a species we evolved a ton of inter-related neural pathways that "feed" on inter-personal physical touch as a activator. (Everyone could use at least one 20 second hug a day to light up those pathways.) Loneliness is going to remain a problem, despite well formed and meaningful online relationship groups, so long as people remain touch deficient. It's quite possible we could medicate that visceral, species-wide need away in the near future, but at least for now, physical relationships are always going to have that profligate advantage of primal neural hormone joy that we need to feel less "lonely", even and especially in a crowd of (virtual) friends.
I agree, I've been part of very fulfilling online communities. I'd say the only bad thing about them was that for much of the interaction, it required a seat at my computer. There's something to be said for back porch beers, etc.
That, to no surprise, doesn't work for me with love relationships of course. My (now) wife and I had a long distance relationship and it was very, very difficult. Unlike the online communities, it was a struggle more than fulfilling - it left me longing for more, etc.
It is a real problem. I also think you can take baby steps to address this. Find a hobby whether gardening or board games or kayaking or whatever. It is hard to make friends as you get older except (imo) around hobbies. People will gladly talk endless about their favorite thing. This might not lead to a bff but it is a real human connection based on shared interest. This hobby might not be in your village, you may have to drive an hour but please do it. I think it will really really help.
Well there is the rub...I can't do the hobbies I enjoy because of physical health or money or both. The other things that might provide SOME diversion or evolve into new hobbies aren't accessible here because I am isolated rurally. Driving for an hour requires borrowing a car, paying for gas and expenses and fearing a breakdown which I would have to pay for, creating more pain with the 2 hours of travel which sucks up my endurance window and is a net loss. When you live in a city a 5-10min tram ride somewhere is a lot easier to endure and accesses so much more.
I'm not in your boat, but you're perfectly describing my wife. I don't know why life has to be so hard for some people. I don't have any advice - just wanted to validate you and let you know someone out here 'gets it'. Just keep doing the best you can with whatever is possible each day.
I understand that it isn't an easy road but nothing is.
Gardening or photography is a hobby you can start yourself with almost no cost and health isn't a real barrier. If there is no club, you could start one. Or maybe join the mall walking club which may also help with your physical health. There is something out there for you. You're worth it so put forth the effort. The return will surprise you.
I know you mean well, and I am not trying to argue for sport or be difficult, but it's not as simple as you imagine. I have health issues that prevent me from spending time down in the dirt gardening and I don't find it appealing at all. Photography requires infrastructure and equipment. Walking is a big problem for me because of the surgeries and fallout.
I really wish people would not do the "you have to work at it and it's worth it" thing as if someone in my position is lazy or doesn't want to have a better life. They keep throwing out things they think are so simple and obvious but can't seem to accept there are real, practical reasons certain things won't work. In addition you can't force someone to like something they simply don't just because it's "available". Please believe me that none of this is my lack of effort or attitude. Nobody would choose this life if there was a realistic way out but many people live like this. I do the best I can but it's crushing.
I also have some permanent health issues (not as serious as yours probably, but still) and I totally get the frustration of people applying wishful thinking to your situation without having any experience with the kinds of problems you're facing (as is happening in this thread).
I know it's not what you asked for, but feel free to drop me a line anytime if you need to talk to someone who has at least a slight chance of getting it. I can be reached on gmail under the same username.
This is going to sound stupid, but if you can't do hobbies you previously enjoyed are you just never going to find new hobbies?
If you have no in-person interaction that you know you need, are you just never going to go find it? Where do other people get it in your area? Church, probably, since you're rural. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you aren't interested in religion, absolutely hate where you're at, and probably the people, too, but I beg you to call local churches until you find one that can help you attend and where you feel welcomed.
Yes, I get that a lot too, and it makes me more depressed. If you're someone who's in the process of extricating themselves from a religious upbringing, this isn't a fun thing to deal with in addition to "regular" mental health issues.
What is helping me is:
* removing toxic parts of my life as much as I can.
* proper diagnosis and medication (the revelation of a late ADHD-Inattentive diagnosis is life-changing)
* meditation (Kabat-Zinn style mindfulness, warning that in my experience not being treated or missing your meds for anxiety/depression may make this a frustration engine)
* forgiving myself for not being more proactive (the hardest one)
* focusing on getting my son out to play with other kids (helps meet people with the same time-schedules)
What doesn't help me:
* Not taking my meds.
* Making extravagant plans. (Big things are more intimidating and generate avoidance).
* Cursing the past. (Mistakes were made)
* Going to church. (Attending a ritual gathering as a nonbeliever can be an incredibly isolating experience.)
The point that you highlight going to church as a non-religious person as the best way to deal with isolation emphasizes the real issue at play here: that civil society is increasingly non-existent to the point that non-religious social outlets outside of work don't exist for the majority of people
Have non-religious social outlets ever existed in any great numbers though? I can't think of any widespread institutions that provided community other than sheer physical proximity, which itself would largely be a 1:1 relationship with church membership in most places.
Admittedly, the largest Fraternities have religious components themselves (the Freemasons, especially), and Churches themselves at times have fought the big Fraternities as "competition", but arguably the big Fraternities are kept separate and distinct from Churches for strong reasons, and tend to sway more secular with the biggest religious ties being calls to charitable service.
I've often wondered if it was possibly past time for a revival of the Oddfellows in America, which at one point was a huge entirely secular Fraternity (whose biggest remaining impact is a lot of fascinating 1900s-ish architecture in most major American cities): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Order_of_Odd_Fello...
There's also a lot of interesting similarities to classic Fraternities/Unions/Social Clubs reflected in cosplay/fandom Unions and Social Clubs such as the multiple Starfleet Fleets (including Barfleet), the 501st, the Ghostbusters Locals, etc. Admittedly fandom/cosplay can be their own religion of a sort, but such things are extremely secular.
Hey, good luck. The hard thing about recommending hobbies to strangers is that one don't know them so the only chance to guess is to project what I like. Moreover your issue is not lack of hobby, but being alone in the house due to logistic reasons.
When I was lonely and isolated (less then you), arguing on the Internet helped. It is not same as real communication and friends, but it more then nothing. Keeps you from loosing it entirely. Writing is communication too, altrough less effective.
Another weird thing was that when I finely had chance to communicate, it was tiring because I basically forgot how to do it. If that happens to you too, that is ok and normal. Don't get discouraged when talk won't go smoothy (as I did).
I wish you good luck, that something around you shows up.
I get you have good intentions, but be careful not to assume you have a handle on what the physical health troubles are, nor that you understand the exact circumstances preventing action that seem easily surmountable to you. It can be more harmful than good to suggest stuff like this if you've missed the mark in your assumptions, speaking as someone who experiences a lot of well-wishing advice for similar reasons.
Sometimes it's better to listen than explain.
I explain it like this: if you're "normal," for lack of a better word, interacting with someone with major depression can feel like debugging a program that is currently in an undefined state. Nothing makes sense, and your rules for how a program should behave are irrelevant, because depression makes me think in ways that are completely bananas (both to you and me, oddly enough). But, you can't just restart the process, so take your time understanding what's going on before acting; sometimes, action is not the right course at all.
I'm not trying to pick on you. I just see this a lot on HN when someone brings up major disorders -- "just work out! just garden! just be happy!" -- and it's troublesome in general, not just you.
Alternately, people who give advice likely experienced similar issues and overcame them. I sure have, and would echo the same recommendations, but like I was, OP just gives excuses why he can't do the simplest thing like recalibrating hobby expectations.
OP is reaching out for compassion but with such a tiny social net only internet strangers can help, and what else can they do but suggest their own life experiences? It sounds like OP has no family or friends to interact with let alone get help with tasks, so if he wants a good avenue of support then he should contact a local church asking for a ride to attend then get to know people there.
I disagree with this notion advice is mostly rooted in similar experience. 15 years of anecdata anyway have shown me differently. It's mostly rooted in well meaning of course, and I am not implying people are being malicious or anything. People do commonly ignore relevant issues that change the playing field in any given situation.
Also when you do meet others in bad situations that have overcome there is a strong survivor bias thing going on around them which leads to people being upset/confused when it doesnt work for you. You must simply be doing it wrong, right? People seem to often to get bothered/angry/offended with you if their advice doesn't work or isn't applicable. I understand the psychological root of this, but it's still disheartening and kills me when I see people feel like people like me simply don't want to be happy or have lives. I didn't post begging for a friend to cure my lonliness. I have far more pressing issues. I posted because it's relevant to my life and cant do much else atm.
You have mentioned church a couple of times and I am not ignoring it...I just don't know how to respond without offending you or someone else. It's just not my thing...I have tried it more than once. I don't want to debate or upset anyone. I probably worry too much about what others think of me...but it does make me feel worse to spread any bad feeling. I didn't downvote you either and always worry people will think I am giving them a "SCREW YOU WRONG" karma mark when I see their posts greyed. Sort of wish downvotes weren't a thing honestly.
> Sort of wish downvotes weren't a thing honestly.
I was fine with them until the graying out thing, which turned them into basically a demonstration of the power of silencing. All it takes is four people to consider your comment unworthy, and you might as well have not said anything at all; it's oddly futuristic, to use a safe adjective, that the more people who dislike your comment the more difficult it becomes to read. What if we applied that to other situations? Four people dislike what you're saying; please wear this mask that makes it difficult to hear your words. And now that you're wearing that mask, people are more likely to not like anything else you say and avoid your corner of the room. If you're really problematic, we have a safe space in another room, or we've developed technology that completely mutes you but it still sounds to you like you're talking. Enjoy the party!
If downvotes were intended for removing problematic discussion, that's one thing, but HN's position is that downvotes are fine for disagreement, too. So if you say something disagreeable, you are slowly filtered to irrelevance. The macro of that arrangement, which optimizes for discussion that the community will find acceptable and agreeable at the expense of contrarian thought or opinion, is apparently lost on everyone who I've discussed it with, so I've stopped bothering for the most part. Graying out of downvoted comments is honestly a symptom that contributes to perceptions of the valley, based on my conversations with people outside of this community -- I was present for a conversation about Thiel among midwest tech folks, and it was specifically brought up as cancerous to thought.
Good news is there are stylesheets that disable it. It isn't going anywhere, so if you feel like I do, adapt. That and showdead are useful.
Yes, I certainly appreciate you downplaying the mental issues I've had to overcome. I've certainly had external intervention but I feel that you suggesting my recovery is simply "survivor bias" is diminishing my experience in favor of making yourself feel better.
Your problems-barring your physical issues-aren't unique; you need your community, you need hobbies, but you say "Been saying for ages I am gonna lay the story out here and hope for some miracle plan" as if someone else is going to tell you your story. How will your life be fixed unless you fix it?
And don't mistake my church suggestion for preaching religion. If your community has social events you could otherwise attend, go for it.
>Alternately, people who give advice likely experienced similar issues and overcame them.
Think about this like if someone was talking about fiscal matters. If you had someone who worked their way into the middle class telling poor people helpful tips to do the same, what is the chance they are overlooking factors in their success that aren't easily replicated for others or which was more based on luck?
I grew up in the middle of rural nowhere where most my old classmates hold minimum wage jobs if they have jobs. I worked hard to get ahead, but I was also assisted by things outside of my control. Natural talents and lucky opportunities being the two largest ones. Socially it's the opposite.
For example, contacting a stranger to ask for a ride can be as difficult for someone as learning a new programming language. Some can do it with no difficulty, others have a major block. What happens when someone tries a new hobby and realizes they are still isolated, even from the community of others engaged in the same hobby?
Underlying a lot of this, be it for making friends or finding a career, is the issue of learned helplessness.
I'm really sorry to hear you're struggling with loneliness.
Out of interest, how are you stuck? (Obviously, feel free not to indulge me if you'd rather not discuss your situation with a well-wishing but uninformed stranger.)
My life was destroyed by medical errors and my present situation is the culmination of things collapsing and not being able to shrink anymore. Been saying for ages I am gonna lay the story out here and hope for some miracle plan. Intend to post tomorrow morning. Was going to today (keep stalling out of fear of negative or null results, and things keep happening) but this morning my amazing 1mpbs spotty rural internet was out due to lightning so I missed the morning rush hour.
I'm very sorry that you have to suffer through this alone. All I can offer is my electronic compassion -- I hope you are able to find even 1 small thing in this world that brings you joy. Sometimes that seed can flower into something beautiful :).
I also encourage you to post part or all of your story tomomrrow. I look forward to reading it.
I do have a cat that brings me joy lest I sound joyless. She is often less appreciative of our relationship and I fear I may simply be a carefully manipulated treat dispenser in her eyes, but I love her anyway. Thanks for the compassion in any form.
You will get negative responses, accept that before you post. Perhaps there is some value to be gained from the negative responses, but you will also get people who care enough trying to help. Some of those will look negative, but read everything and sit on them for a few days.
I'm sure you've figured out that it's really hard to offer helpful advice to someone when you don't know their situation, which is something that keeps coming up here.
Post away, I'm looking forward to reading it in the hope that I may be able to offer some help.
While I doubt anyone is going to summon some kind of miracle plan, I think there are lots of people here who'd be eager to read your story and try to help. So yeah... if you're up for sharing, please say when you're ready.
Hi. I am sorry to hear your situation is similar. My email is in my profile but I will be honest up front that I am dealing with so much right now that I wouldn't be a good friend and hate disappointing anyone so please don't expect much or feel slighted.
I think your first course of action is improving your attitude. You start out with a cry for help about your problems, depression, and loneliness. People respond, offering help, and you have a negative response to it. It may not seem like much, but people are more willing to help you, if you're willing to be helped. Stop feeling sorry for yourself, be positive, and take advantage of what others are offering.
You misunderstand me, I disagree, and I don't know how to change that. I have heard the "people are willing to help IF you do X,Y,Z" thing so often and have seen that even when I change and extend myself and expend great and limited energy to their requirements it doesn't work like you imagine and I find it really simplifies the complex set of issues I deal with and is victim blaming in the end. Sorry if I have offended you...I am explaining my position not trying to fight. I believe your intent is good and I do appreciate that intent. I just hope you can accept and believe me when I say I have "been there/done that" and would never choose to be defiant or screw my own life out of pride or attitude.
Be more positive, go outside your limited comfort zone. Even if you think you have zero interest in it, try it anyhow. What's the worst that can happen? You meet someone new, and waste a couple hours of your life? I'm not totally familiar with your disabilities, but look at Stephen Hawking, Christopher Reeves. I just saw a dude with no legs doing things on a skateboard, that 15 year old me would have dreamed of doing. You're not offending me, stop apologizing for everything. Get out , and do something.
We have an article about how these issues are structural and entrenched issues at the societal level and people offered superficial self-improvement advice to someone whose issues appear to be largely from profound health problems, which misses the point entirely.
I don't think offering friendship, and someone to talk to is superficial at all. If this is all missing the point, then the parent shouldn't be telling us all this on a public forum.
I understand, I have exchanged messages with a other person, it was like an email at the end of the week checking up on what happen that week.
I am not sure how to set emails public, I can't see your email, you can contact me at my_hn_id@gmail.com, I am not offended if you don't want to connect so don't worry about me.
Thanks. I know my email was there in the profile, even if cryptically in the info bit as others have written me. Maybe I changed a privacy setting inadvertently and will check. I dont want you to get spammed posting your email in the open here as they seem to even vacuum up attempts at ciphering them like that, so if you care about that or want to delete yours in the above post I have saved it.
I found it, but contact me when/if you feel you are in the mood. I know how it is, sometimes you want to be alone sometimes you hate how lonely you are.
Go to church, what have you got to lose? With all its problems every church is filled with nice people and I guarantee with a few calls (probably 1) you will find someone that will pick you up and take you. No matter how rural you are, there is a church close by.
I actually don't see why it shouldn't. As mentioned above, most churchgoers are nice people, and I can't conceive of anyone throwing the atheist out on grounds of “convert or leave”.
That's pretty wishful (or perhaps naïve) thinking. A family member of mine literary hasn't spoken to me in over two decades because I told her I didn't believe in god when I was 12. She asked me out of nowhere, I said no, that was it, I was no longer to be in her life in any capacity. She also tries to meddle in my business telling other people I am not to be trusted because "you can only trust someone who fears god."
Its been my experience that most people who are devout enough to go to church are exactly the "convert or leave" type. Church is a very tribal place.
Not to mention that the type of people who want to spend their time doing church activities are people I find horrifically boring and have ZERO common ground with. May be less so if you're male.
> That's pretty wishful (or perhaps naïve) thinking. A family member of mine literary hasn't spoken to me in over two decades because I told her I didn't believe in god when I was 12. She asked me out of nowhere, I said no, that was it, I was no longer to be in her life in any capacity. She also tries to meddle in my business telling other people I am not to be trusted because "you can only trust someone who fears god."
I'm afraid I'm tempted to dismiss this as anecdote. This is one personal experience. That seems quite personal. That seems far more family-related than church-related.
> Its been my experience that most people who are devout enough to go to church are exactly the "convert or leave" type. Church is a very tribal place.
Not around here. Feels weird to "defend" it, I can't even remember when I actually last attended a service.
> Not to mention that the type of people who want to spend their time doing church activities are people I find horrifically boring and have ZERO common ground with.
Can we agree on the fact this has nothing to do with the initial controversy that churches would be unwelcoming to atheists? This only describes atheists' (well, yours, but you seem to intend to represent a global viewpoint) likely aversion to churches.
> May be less so if you're male.
I wish we didn't live in a world where this came up so often, but ok, now I'm this deep in the debate I will bite: what's this got to do with anything? Personal/local trivia or something deeper?
I belong to one. My wife is a Christian and I am not. They do enthusiastically welcome me, which is consistent with what they should be doing in my opinion. Nobody pressures me to act in any way that I am uncomfortable with and rarely (only when I invite it) does anyone discuss my beliefs with me. I think that this church is unusual; they have a huge focus on being a "family". I would have never gone if not for my wife (it would be awkward), but it is very rewarding to me and I get to meet and befriend people who are very different from who I would meet otherwise (as a scientist/programmer type). It also provides many service opportunities and people to help.
I know you're getting a lot of unsolicited advice here, but I'd like to throw in my suggestion since you don't seem interested/capable of a lot of the suggested hobbies. I found myself in a similar situation in the past (health + geographical isolation) and becoming heavily involved and eventually and admin of a web forum was one of the best things that ever happened to me. I'm no longer involved, but it was a wonderful place with a really supportive community better than anything I've experienced in real life outside of college. If you find yourself on your computer for a large portion of the day anyway, it's a great way to make those hours more productive due to friendship :)
I'm also a middle-aged introvert. Outside of work, the only people I really talk to are my sisters, neither of whom live nearby. One thing that's helped me is fostering rescue dogs with a local organization. I only foster for a few days here and there, but it really makes a difference to feel some life around my apartment.
Two quick thoughts - a language class or a cooking class. No idea if those would be appropriate to your circumstances, however they exist all over, in a variety of intensities, and are things on my own "to-do" list. Shared w/good intentions.
A "remote social life" is not even close to the same thing and chats online or the phone with "disposable friends" and strangers who have a clear and easy disconnect from your real life don't fill the hole a lack of enduring, present human contact leaves and usually take precious energy with no real benefit. Even though I am an extremely introverted person by most standards I still need social connection to thrive and have felt the best living in big cites with lots of options but I can't find a way back.