Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

Yes, but resolving this might be a case where the cure is worse than the disease. Take Colchicine for example, which is one of the first medicines ever. It was cheap and plentiful, and thousands of people used it daily to help control gout.

However, nobody ever actually did modern science on it. We all just assumed it was safe and effective, because it had been so for thousands of years.

So, in 2006 the US FDA started the Unapproved Drugs Initiative. The US government said they would give an exclusive right to the drug to anyone who did the science. So, URL Pharma did a tiny bit of research to prove what generations of physicians already knew, and the US Government let them have the exclusive right to sell Colchicine. The price immediately went from pennies a pill to $3 and up.

While I applaud the goal, it is far too easy to turn these well-meaning initiatives into cynical IP land-grabs that are distinctly anti-consumer.

https://www.jwatch.org/jw201006100000001/2010/06/10/spotligh...




another example is acthar gel. it was approved in the 1950s as a "miracle drug" for dozens of diseases. it is a hormone extracted from pig pituitary glands that stimulates corticosteroid production, and the research around the clinical use of this drug and corticosteroids won a nobel prize

in the 1950s, synthesizing steroids was expensive, so doctors used the pig-derived acthar (which was actually developed by armour & co, the chicago meat packing company). then cheap generic synthetic steroids gained use and acthar use declined, as they basically had the same effects.

except that acthar worked better than corticosteroids to treat a rare form of epilepsy in infants called infantile spasms, even though the drug was not FDA approved for this disease. however, there were too few patients for the drug to be profitable in that indication, so the manufacturer of acthar decided to take it off the market. physicians and patients revolted, as this was the only drug that worked for a serious disease, so the manufacturer kept selling it though they lost millions a year on it

enter questcor pharmaceuticals, which bought the rights to the drug for $100K. they cobbled together some existing publications and got FDA approval for infantile spasms. they increased the price of the drug from $30 / vial to $30K / vial, and then started marketing it in other indications like multiple sclerosis. there was no real evidence it worked in these indications, but because it was approved in the 1950s before modern FDA standards, it retained many approved indications

questcor was eventually acquired for $6B, and to this day there is no competition for acthar because there is no FDA pathway for making a generic version of a pig-derived drug

there is little backwards compatibility for FDA regulations


And yet another: Dimethyl Sulfoxide can be used to (cheaply) treat a ton of different things, but has been blocked by the FDA for use in all but a very small number of cases (bladder pain syndrome). Amongst other things, is extremely good at reducing swelling without the use of steroids, and is often used in gel form to treat inflammation.

If you want to use it, though, you have to leave the US or have a veterinarian as a friend. An acquaintance of mine gets DMSO gel used on horses to treat inflammation from a vet and uses it to reduce swelling in his back (has had multiple major spinal surgeries).

The common conspiracy theory is that DMSO is too cheap and treats too broad a category of ailments, so drug companies are lobbying against it with the FDA any time it comes up, as it would jeopardize the revenue streams from steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, painkillers, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_sulfoxide#Medicine http://www.dmso.org/articles/information/muir.htm


But you can buy it over the counter easily? It's not hard to find locally or you can just pick up a bottle on Amazon. My mom has used it for years on her feet.


I was going to say that my local Fleet Farm carries it: https://www.fleetfarm.com/detail/-dmso-dimethyl-sulfoxide-ge...


dmso is also used as a steroid transport as an alternative to injection. I wonder if that is not part of the reason...


The problem is that in medicine, it's rarely the engineering that's valuable, it's knowing if it's safe and effective. I can see why that would rub people the wrong way, but it's also worrying that people were prescribing medicine based on tradition rather than science. Pennies to dollars for a period of time is better than pulling the drug off the market entirely until it was proven safe (which no one would have done).


> it's also worrying that people were prescribing medicine based on tradition rather than science

Why? New drugs have been getting less effective over time, even though the scientific requirements to get them approved have been becoming stricter. The majority of our most effective drugs were approved before there were any requirements for demonstrating safety and/or efficacy.


Does diminishing returns/low hanging fruit mean anything to you?

Also, from that pool of drugs you're referring to, we've eliminated a number of things that had strong effects but whose side-effects were later found after careful study to not outweigh the benefits.

There is a similar effect from carefully studying devices/surgical interventions--not so much a raft of "new innovations" but rather the culling of a lot of things that were overused or actually harmful. Huge cost savings, big improvements in population health & lots of gored oxen.


Diminishing returns if we talk about small molecule drugs. But we're in the age of genetic engineering


> I can see why that would rub people the wrong way, but it's also worrying that people were prescribing medicine based on tradition rather than science.

I personally think FDA approval is dubious in cases like the OP mentioned.

We know from centuries of use that the plant is safe. Whether it helps their gout or not is irrelevant. Even if it's a placebo effect, who cares? Trying it out won't kill them, and if it doesn't work they can move on to something else.

Why waste tax payer money "proving" something like this?

I love the protections the FDA gives, but we need to use common sense, too.


Just because people "know" something is safe doesn't make it so. Below a certain percentage increase, or with more long-term effects, public perception of the issues that might come with a common treatment could be overlooking things.

We've known (for various confidence levels) that lithium salts are effective for some mood disorders since at least the 1870s (though there's various stories and one-off doctor recommendations that survive about lithium salts or natural water sources with high lithium levels being good for melancholy much older than that), then the FDA banned it in the 1940s due to the nasty discovery of lithium poisoning fatalities, and now we're using it again since 1970, with recurring blood tests to be sure you're not accumulating too much.

We used lead regularly in all sorts of things until, surprise, lots of people often exposed to lead turned up with nasty health issues.

We used asbestos all over the place until, decades after we started using it, we realized "hey, maybe all these easily-broken-off fibers that turn up in the shredded lungs of people might be related".

We used syrup of ipecac for hundreds of years, until we concluded "I _think_ the side effects from the ipecac are probably worse than the thing we wanted them to expel".


> it's knowing if it's safe and effective.

What do you do about all the flawed and weakly powered clinical trials of the past then? Do you consider them invalid at some point? If not, why have double standards then?


Rather than issue an artificial monopoly, what if a "reward" to the company that "did the science" was capped at 2x their costs or X years, whichever comes first. Then it's public domain.

Wouldn't that get SOMEBODY to take the nigh guaranteed investment? I think what rubs people the wrong way is the limitless profits that are guaranteed by government sanctioned monopoly for things that save people's lives. It's a strange perversion of the free market that benefits the wrong people disproportionately.


The profits aren't limitless. Pharma is an industry in decline, because drug r&d is so hard

As it currently stands, 60%+ of the new drugs that are developed in the world these days are for cancer or rare disease. Because for most other diseases, drug r&d is not profitable. Neuro is too risky because the biology is complex. Cardiovascular and metabolic disease is too costly because of regulatory and reimbursement hurdles. Infectious disease is a field where generics dominate, and the regulatory system is failing to support efforts to fight drug resistant strains

For-profit companies fund 3x what governments fund. We don't have the federal budgets to support a public drug industry. And we don't have the political will at least in the US to empower federal funding increases of that magnitude

It certainly isn't ideal that profit driven companies control which drugs get approved. But if profit driven companies didn't fund new drug development, no one else would


The general idea might be economically sound, but the exclusivity period would also need to account for the risk that research costs would never be recuperated, e.g. if the result of the research turns out to be ineffective or unsafe.


Between failure, placebo effect, and the possibility of being less effective than other treatments... that isn't guaranteed. Studying these drugs may just prove they aren't worth using.

If it's so straight forward to prove, the government should just fund the studies itself. There's no reason to grant any private company anything in that case.


The NIH currently spends $33B a year on research. Not all of that is drug related

The top ~15 pharma companies spend over $70B a year on r&d, and VC funds $15B in the US alone

Even assuming government operates as efficiently as private industry, we are talking almost triple the NIH budget to accomplish that


> Even assuming government operates as efficiently as private industry, we are talking almost triple the NIH budget to accomplish that

So increase the budget? If we assume the government would operate as efficiently as private industry, then it would be cheaper overall. The other option is for private industry to recoup the costs plus profits from society at large.

Obviously increasing the budget is politically difficult, but let's not pretend the current method makes any real economic sense.


The NIH budget has declined 20% in the last 15 years. Not only is there a strong downward trend, but the movements in funding levels are gradual. I'd say that tripling the NIH budget is not just politically difficult, but politically impossible


Then just leave the drugs grandfathered. If we view something as a problem (i.e. the lack of formal drug approval processes on old drugs), but we are not willing to solve the problem right (i.e. providing funding to government agencies to do the research), then we shouldn't do anything at all. Continuing the status quo is also a reasonable action.


That would be the best thing to do IMO, but the problem is politics. Congress loves wasting money on toys that kill people, but when it comes to things that saves lives and advance science, all of a sudden budgets are tight or we need a new round of tax cuts.


I think the US government should just directly pay for the studies/tests. If (as would be assumed), the drug meets the current requirements after this testing, all drug companies can continue selling them. If not, then great we can take a dangerous and/or ineffective drug off the market. And if the government isn't willing to pay, they should just continue leaving it grandfathered.

The Unapproved Drugs Initiative sounds much worse.


As someone who is prescribed colchine for life for 3x/day, I remain blown away that a generic drug I'd taken for a better part of my life went from costing pennies to costing ~$6 per pill.


And this was basically done so a form could be filed properly.


"So, in 2006 the US FDA started the Unapproved Drugs Initiative. The US government said they would give an exclusive right to the drug to anyone who did the science."

This right here is the problem. The US government could easily have put a 1 cent tax on every pill and used it to have the FDA contract out the safety research. But instead it chose to grant a private venture yet another monopoly.


This would still leave the question of deciding which, of an huge number arguably medical human activities to subject to scrutiny. Various commercial interests will find ways of sticking their noses into the game of maybe-maybe-not banning something.


Sure, but every process is corruptible. The point is there was absolutely no reason to create and grant a monopoly in this case.


Ctrl-f for Thalidomide, found nothing. So, I'll make the mandatory pro-regulation comment:

Without the FDA's slow-moving approval process, the harm done by Thalidomide's side-effects would have been enormously worse than they were.

Here's an FDA blog (apparently these exist - who knew?) on exactly this:

https://blogs.fda.gov/fdavoice/index.php/2012/02/50-years-af...


Another, much more common example: Tylenol.

To date, it is still not fully understood how paracetamol/acetaminophen works. Due to the fact that it was sold long before understanding the mechanism of action was required by the FDA, and there are little adverse effects in the history of the drug, it's permitted to be sold today.


I don't think a poorly designed program is really a good benchmark.

I wonder if there is some frustrated economist at the FDA that always mumbles about incentives and gets told to shut up.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: