> It's strange how you - out of all possible kinds of stories that might go viral on social media - choose to evoke a charicature of the mass influx of "refugees" into Germany and its consequences on public order and on the safety of women in public places.
How is that "strange"? I chose that example on purpose because it's as relevant as it's ever gonna be and it's exactly with that topic where these dynamics have become especially bad if not straight up dangerous. At this point, some people are living pretty much in alternative realities.
> This is strange because your view seems to be that a benevolent govenment can protect hapless citizens from fake news stories by censoring social media.
I didn't make any statements along those lines, at all. So please don't try to strawman me just for the sake of derailing this discussion into "Germany is actually on the brink of collapse!".
Just taking a look at one of your "sources" (religionofpeace.com, really?) speaks bounds and volumes where you are coming from and what you are trying to do here.
I could now spend time and effort trying to explain to you what actually happened New Year`s Eve in Cologne, how foreign outlets mistranslated the numbers of attendees at the Domplatte with the number of perpetrators. How New Years Eve is pretty much always chaos on the brink of anarchy (the combination of alcohol and fireworks tends to do that), how the term "Taharrush" didn`t even exist prior to 2016, as it`s a made-up term resulting from a word-to-word translation from German to Arabic of the term "Gruppenvergewaltigung" by the BND, and not some "cultural thing that every Arab speaker knows because group raping is just a normal thing over there".
If you'd actually read your own sources, like number 7 about the Mass sexual assaults in Egypt, you'd realize this was a tactic employed by the Egyptian state/government to intimidate protesters and not something that's "just a cultural thing of Muslims".
How the vast majority of these "sexual assaults" had actually been cases of petty theft, where the "sexual advances" are only used to mask the perp stealing the victim's belongings and not actual rapes.
I could explain to you how it`s always the "bad headlines" that spread around, but never reports when it turns out that said headlines had been completely made up, as those never penetrate into the echo chambers as they'd contradict the established narrative of said echo chamber. Like it happened in Frankfurt last New Years Eve [0].
This goes on and on, to "community maps" [1] supposedly listing crimes by refugee but when actually looking through the pins you realize quickly: Many pins are duplicates, many cases don't have anything to do with refugees at all, it's all just there to create and support a narrative in a "shoveling bullshit" way.
By now it's become literally impossible to Google any unbiased news about any of this as the searches are dominated by the same few headlines spread across hundreds of blogs repeating the same tired narratives.
But you made up your mind about the situation already, it won't matter what I say or link here, nothing is gonna change your mind because disregarding me is as easy as claiming that every MSM has "bias" or how the "benevolent Governments" are in on it and now censor all the social media everywhere, hiding all these refugee crimes for their secret agenda of "replacing white people" or whatever.
Tbh I'm simply tired of it all, the hate, the lies, the lies for the sake of creating hate and violence.
I wish there'd be an easy solution to any of this, but contrary to some populist claims, there ain't.
> At this point, some people are living pretty much in alternative realities.
So true.
> So please don't try to strawman me just for the sake of derailing this discussion into "Germany is actually on the brink of collapse!".
The phrase you put in quotes are your literal words in your post. I never claimed such a thing. It's the strawman you make of legitimate criticism on indiscriminate mass immigration.
> Just taking a look at one of your "sources" (religionofpeace.com, really?) speaks bounds and volumes where you are coming from and what you are trying to do here.
What's wrong with that source? And I'm asking this honestly. You are shooting the messenger here, because thereligionofpeace.com does nothing but quoting the Quran & the Hadith extensively. You can look up these quotes in the islamic scriptures themselves, they are all very real. The only thing the website does is calling out the lies of political leaders, journalists and academics that keep on claiming the Quran is about love & peace.
In northern Uganda there was a guy called Joseph Kony who started his own religion [1]. He gathered a militia and they went off raiding villages, killing the parents in every household and brainwashing the boys into becoming child soldiers. The girls were held as sex slaves. Exactly the same method was used by the prophet Muhammed and his men. This is not some secret double life of his, but is extensively described and glorified in the Quran & the Hadith. [2]
You will not find one Western intellectual who will vow for the peaceful nature of Konyism. Islam on the other hand is seen as some kind of cultural enrichment for the West. The reasons for this form of mass delusion are complicated, and are sometimes grouped under the unwieldy umbrella term "cultural marxism" [3]. Many defenders of Islam have also painted themselves into a corner, entangled as they are in the failed narratives of their initial optimism.
> I could now spend time and effort trying to explain to you what actually happened New Year`s Eve in Cologne, how foreign outlets mistranslated the numbers of attendees at the Domplatte with the number of perpetrators.
Of course some media outlets will misrepresent the events. It has always been like that. But it is also completely besides the point. I like to stay with the Wikipedia account of the events, which is partly based on the findings of an NRW parliamentary enquiry.
> How New Years Eve is pretty much always chaos on the brink of anarchy (the combination of alcohol and fireworks tends to do that),
This is a very ostrich way of downplaying what actually happened. No, alcohol and fireworks don't tend to trigger groups of European men into mobbing women stepping off a train and sexually assaulting them. That has never been the normal way to deal with each other over here. Not on New Year's Eve nor during any other time of the year. This is the kind of behaviour we see during war. And now we see it again in our cities and on music festivals where mobs of muslim men display this behaviour [4] [5] . But most journalists and most politicians are too strung-up with political correctness to be able to face that reality.
> If you'd actually read your own sources, like number 7 about the Mass sexual assaults in Egypt,
I did, actually.
> you'd realize this was a tactic employed by the Egyptian state/government to intimidate protesters
> and not something that's "just a cultural thing of Muslims".
In the West we live in a time of #metoo outrage and manspreading anxiety [6], but at the same time it's still fashionable to look away from the misogyny of the Islam ideology. This is tragically delusional, and reached a climax of absurdity during the Woman's March in Washington [7], when half a million of America's progressives and feminists marched behind a woman who went several times on record in favour of introducing Sharia law into their country. [8]
> How the vast majority of these "sexual assaults" had actually been cases of petty theft, where the "sexual advances" are only used to mask the perp stealing the victim's belongings and not actual rapes.
So if the woman gets robbed in the process we should ignore the sexual assault?
> I could explain to you how it`s always the "bad headlines" that spread around, but never reports when it turns out that said headlines had been completely made up, as those never penetrate into the echo chambers as they'd contradict the established narrative of said echo chamber. Like it happened in Frankfurt last New Years Eve [0].
> This goes on and on, to "community maps" [1] supposedly listing crimes by refugee but when actually looking through the pins you realize quickly: Many pins are duplicates, many cases don't have anything to do with refugees at all, it's all just there to create and support a narrative in a "shoveling bullshit" way.
The existence of fake news doesn't invalidate the fact there's a real problem here.
> But you made up your mind about the situation already, it won't matter what I say or link here, nothing is gonna change your mind because disregarding me is as easy as claiming that every MSM has "bias" or how the "benevolent Governments" are in on it and now censor all the social media everywhere, hiding all these refugee crimes for their secret agenda of "replacing white people" or whatever.
Lots of strawmen about my supposed thinking process. The truth is that I don't try to look at snapshots of the current situation, but at data that is indicative of long-term trends. Such as the data of the Dutch bureau of statistics, that show that crime rates among muslim immigrants actually increase from the first to the second generation [9]. Or the research of Ruud Koopmans, indicating that a large percentage of muslims in Europe hold beliefs that are so radical and backwards it would make neonazis blush [10]. A survey of the British Channel 4 came to similar conclusions [11].
There is no "melting pot" trend in Europe when it comes to Muslim immigration. To the contrary, every younger generation of Muslims in Europe is on average more radical than their parents, and withdraws still further away from society at large. This is already a problem when it's about ghettos within cities. Entire cities however, like e.g. Brussels and Antwerp are now already demographically doomed to have a Muslim majority within a couple of decades. The majority of schoolchildren there are Muslim as of now. There are probably many other cities in Western Europe where this is the case.
> The phrase you put in quotes are your literal words in your post. I never claimed such a thing. It's the strawman you make of legitimate criticism on indiscriminate mass immigration.
I was referring to your statement about what "my view seems to be" in regards to governments censoring social media. I tried to make that especially clear by seperately quoting said sentence.
> What's wrong with that source?
For one that it clearly has an agenda [0], the other one being that I'm very skeptical of any outlet that goes through quite an effort to hide who's behind it.
> You are shooting the messenger here, because thereligionofpeace.com does nothing but quoting the Quran & the Hadith extensively.
"Does nothing but quote the Quran", sure. Amazing how we seem to be looking at two totally different websites because over here it most certainly does not look like the site is only "quoting the Quran and Hadiths". Maybe it's my censored German Internet?
> In northern Uganda there was a guy called Joseph Kony who started his own religion.
I don't even know where to start with this. But sure, I'll go with "Kony invented his own religion" and none of his acts had anything to do with abusing the Christian faith.
Do you realize it's exactly that kind of narrative framing which says a lot about your own position? When Kony goes around with his "Lord's Resistance Army" that's a completely "made up religion" and has no relation at all to Christianity, but when ISIS goes around beheading people "that's Islam!".
> The reasons for this form of mass delusion are complicated, and are sometimes grouped under the unwieldy umbrella term "cultural marxism".
You are, once again, not reading your own sources: "'Cultural Marxism" in modern political parlance refers to a conspiracy theory which sees the Frankfurt School as part of an ongoing movement to take over and destroy Western society."
If that's not good enough you then you might want to check out the RationalWiki on that particular topic, they have a dedicated article about "cultural Marxism" that goes into more details [1].
> This is a very ostrich way of downplaying what actually happened.
As opposed to dramatizing the situation by claiming that Muslims go on drunken raping sprees in the thousands because "that's just the thing they do"? A vast number of incidents from that evening, which have been dramatized as "outrageous", are common occurrences during New Year's Eve, like all that outrage over "Refugees shooting people with fireworks". Stuff like that has been happening for as long as New Year's Eve and fireworks have been around, but when "brown people" shoot others with fireworks that's suddenly especially bad and a whole new level of danger.
Which does not mean that I approve of shooting people with fireworks, I'm merely pointing out the obvious double standard at play here for the sole purpose of painting a narrative.
That "wild claim" is literally the second paragraph of the article...
> So if the woman gets robbed in the process we should ignore the sexual assault?
Where did I say anything like that? I merely pointed out how these large number of "sexual assault" cases come about because in the vast majority of cases they involved petty theft with the "sexual assault" serving merely as a distraction and not rapes. This isn't anything new, in German, there's even a term for it "Antanztrick" [2]. I'm pretty sure there's also an English term for this kind of tactic because it's rather widespread and has been happening long before refugees from Syria arrived in Europe.
> The existence of fake news doesn't invalidate the fact there's a real problem here.
And what might that "problem" be? How Muslims are just "culturally incompatible with Western Values" even tho we literally have millions upon millions of peaceful and productive counterexamples?
Btw: Even tho that was in your previous comment, I still feel the need to point out that Germany's "censoring social media law" didn't do anything new. The laws for that had already been in place, and plenty of use, before they introduced massive fines for Facebook. But even prior to that you could get into a lot of trouble for "sharing" questionable views on any website you run, this would even involve comments made by complete strangers. By German law, it's the one who's running the website who's liable for any and all content there.
Facebook, for whatever reason, circumvented that law, while every private person and business has to moderate their comment sections to keep them clean from defamations and incitement of the people, thanks to a German legal specialty called "Störerhaftung" which has been around for as long as telephones have existed in Germany.
And before you go there: No, that does not mean I support such practices, I'm merely giving context to your narrative of "Now, that the German government censors Facebook, nobody will know about all these refugee crimes anymore!" because it's just that: Another narrative to support conspiracy theories by misrepresenting the facts about the situation at hand.
Is it important to have a discussion about how to properly integrate, or not integrate, refugees from war-torn countries? Sure enough, it is, but that discussion most certainly shouldn't involve sentiments along the lines of "They are all raping cave-men who hate our western Values!" because that's just utter bigotry and it's oozing out of every second sentence you write.
I'm out of this "discussion", didn't even want to be in it in the first place, but thanks for making this comment chain an illustrative example for the dynamics I addressed in my original comment.
I agree with 90% of what you said, but must take issue with your characterization of cultural marxism. Cultural Marxism as I've encountered the term is simply what critics of Intersectional Feminism call Intersectional Feminism, and as political slurs go that seems rather reasonable. Intersectional feminism really does have a lot in common with Marxism if one replaces 'the proletariate' with underprivileged groups like sexual, ethnic, or cultural minorities.
I don't disagree the rhetoric by people who use the term is often overblown, but the basic fact of the critique - that Intersectional Feminism is similar to Marxism - not only seems fair but would probably elicit no disagreement from the people so characterized.
> Cultural Marxism as I've encountered the term is simply what critics of Intersectional Feminism call Intersectional Feminism
That's what it's often used for, but why not simply use intersectional feminism/identity politics?
That would be far more fitting and wouldn't carry the same baggage as using an idea the Nazis made up. Imho some people use this term very consciously and others simply pick it up without even realizing that there's quite a history to the idea behind it.
Instead, it gets thrown at everything people disagree with:
Education too liberal -> cultural Marxism
Third wave feminism -> cultural Marxism
Government supposedly being "leftist" -> cultural Marxism
Said government not turning away refugees -> cultural Marxism
At this point, it's pretty much become the new "The communists are behind it!", which was always a common theme for Nazis, and certain US conservative circles.
Does everybody who uses it believe in the actual conspiracy theory behind it? Doubtful, but by marginalizing and normalizing the term the Overton window shifts and suddenly the cultural Marxism version, which involves an international conspiracy, becomes that much more "debatable".
It's especially troublesome to see it being used by people who so thoughtfully identify as "Christian", just like a certain Norwegian terrorist [0] who killed 77 people.
Disclaimer: I'm not attempting to silence people for their speech, I'm just questioning the terminology used because if people keep on using terminology like that, after having been made aware of its actual connotations/history, then they really shouldn't be surprised/act outraged when others locate them in a certain political camp.
If I'd be ranting about class warfare and how the proletariat needs to free themselves, then people would also very quickly paint me with a certain brush, probably rightfully so.
Interesting - I hadn't known the history behind the term, I thought it was a neologism. I do prefer the term identity politics myself, but the tendency of right wing groups to call everyone they dislike communists doesn't appear to me any more ridiculous than the frequency with which they are called Nazis. There seems to be an effort in that camp to shift the Overton window to exclude communism with the same prejudice currently reserved for Nazism, and from that perspective 'baiting' the opposition into being too loose with either term is probably an effective strategy.
> the other one being that I'm very skeptical of any outlet that goes through quite an effort to hide who's behind it.
You and I use an anonymous account here on this forum too. This doesn't prevent the things we're saying from being judged on their own merit.
> "Does nothing but quote the Quran", sure. Amazing how we seem to be looking at two totally different websites because over here it most certainly does not look like the site is only "quoting the Quran and Hadiths". Maybe it's my censored German Internet?
Are you referring to their claim that islamic terrorism is overrepresented in the terror statistics? There are other sources that corrobate that. [1]
> I don't even know where to start with this. But sure, I'll go with "Kony invented his own religion" and none of his acts had anything to do with abusing the Christian faith. Do you realize it's exactly that kind of narrative framing which says a lot about your own position? When Kony goes around with his "Lord's Resistance Army" that's a completely "made up religion" and has no relation at all to Christianity,
Agreed, there is nothing in the Christian gospel justifying any kind of violence, let alone Kony's war crimes. The founder of Christianity, Jesus of Nazareth, was all about radical non-violence.
> but when ISIS goes around beheading people "that's Islam!".
True. The Quran and the Hadith are full of calls to slaughter "infidels". Dying during jihad is one of the only two things that guarantees access to Paradise after death [2]. The other one is migrating in the name of Allah [3].
> You are, once again, not reading your own sources:
Yes I did.
> "'Cultural Marxism" in modern political parlance refers to a conspiracy theory which sees the Frankfurt School as part of an ongoing movement to take over and destroy Western society."
I think I indicated already that I'm not too happy with the term "cultural marxism". Then again, I don't buy the epithet of "conspiracy theory" neither. I'm OK with quoting sources that I disagree with, BTW.
I think there is a totalitarian trend going on where people get into professional trouble for freely discussing ideas in a scientific manner. James Damore [4] and Lindsay Shepherd [5] are two recent examples of this.
> If that's not good enough you then you might want to check out the RationalWiki on that particular topic, they have a dedicated article about "cultural Marxism" that goes into more details [1].
RationalWiki is anything but rational and the page you cite is a perfect example. By quoting thedailystormer.com and then making fun of it you can make just about any point.
> As opposed to dramatizing the situation
Well the thing is, the events were not dramatized at all during the first 4 days of January 2016. They were kept silent. Without the (at that time) uncensored social media we would still be in the dark about it today. That's an important thing to keep in mind the next time you rail against all the fake news that keeps popping into your view.
> by claiming that Muslims go on drunken raping sprees in the thousands because "that's just the thing they do"?
Again, you're making a strawman of my argument. My point is that sexual slavery of non-muslim women is described as justified in the Quran and the Hadith. In many muslim countries these scriptures are the foundation of all morality since 1400 years, so this mentality is deeply ingrained.
> A vast number of incidents from that evening, which have been dramatized as "outrageous", are common occurrences during New Year's Eve, like all that outrage over "Refugees shooting people with fireworks". Stuff like that has been happening for as long as New Year's Eve and fireworks have been around, but when "brown people" shoot others with fireworks that's suddenly especially bad and a whole new level of danger.
I'm not the one talking about fireworks. You keep bringing up that subject. Which is strange because it is a quaint topic in the face of the mass sexual assault that was happening at the same time.
> That "wild claim" is literally the second paragraph of the article...
Sure, there is a footnote to a NYT account from 2005, where supporters of one political party were mobbing and assaulting women. But to conclude that this must be a government tactic to intimidate women is beyound me. And it's - if you think of it - a ridiculous idea. Does the Egyptian government really have that many secret agents to pull off such a thing? What about the other men that see it happening? And why do they only intimidate women? Why don't they intimidate the male political opponents too? And do they ask the women about their political views first before they sexually assault them? Questions ... questions ...
> And what might that "problem" be? How Muslims are just "culturally incompatible with Western Values"
No the problem is that Islam is incompatible with Western values. The ideology of the Quran violates just about any human right imaginable.
You seem to confuse criticism of Islam with racism towards Muslims. They are not the same thing. Just as criticism of National Socialism isn't the same as racism towards Germans. Or criticism of Maoism is not being racist towards the Chinese.
> even tho we literally have millions upon millions of peaceful and productive counterexamples?
It's a good thing that millions of European Muslims are peaceful and productive. This will make the de-islamisation of Europe all the more attainable. After all, the de-nazification of Germany after WWII was a resounding success too. And the end of communism in the Soviet Union went largely peacefully too. As was the transition away from Maoism in China.
How is that "strange"? I chose that example on purpose because it's as relevant as it's ever gonna be and it's exactly with that topic where these dynamics have become especially bad if not straight up dangerous. At this point, some people are living pretty much in alternative realities.
> This is strange because your view seems to be that a benevolent govenment can protect hapless citizens from fake news stories by censoring social media.
I didn't make any statements along those lines, at all. So please don't try to strawman me just for the sake of derailing this discussion into "Germany is actually on the brink of collapse!". Just taking a look at one of your "sources" (religionofpeace.com, really?) speaks bounds and volumes where you are coming from and what you are trying to do here.
I could now spend time and effort trying to explain to you what actually happened New Year`s Eve in Cologne, how foreign outlets mistranslated the numbers of attendees at the Domplatte with the number of perpetrators. How New Years Eve is pretty much always chaos on the brink of anarchy (the combination of alcohol and fireworks tends to do that), how the term "Taharrush" didn`t even exist prior to 2016, as it`s a made-up term resulting from a word-to-word translation from German to Arabic of the term "Gruppenvergewaltigung" by the BND, and not some "cultural thing that every Arab speaker knows because group raping is just a normal thing over there".
If you'd actually read your own sources, like number 7 about the Mass sexual assaults in Egypt, you'd realize this was a tactic employed by the Egyptian state/government to intimidate protesters and not something that's "just a cultural thing of Muslims".
How the vast majority of these "sexual assaults" had actually been cases of petty theft, where the "sexual advances" are only used to mask the perp stealing the victim's belongings and not actual rapes.
I could explain to you how it`s always the "bad headlines" that spread around, but never reports when it turns out that said headlines had been completely made up, as those never penetrate into the echo chambers as they'd contradict the established narrative of said echo chamber. Like it happened in Frankfurt last New Years Eve [0].
This goes on and on, to "community maps" [1] supposedly listing crimes by refugee but when actually looking through the pins you realize quickly: Many pins are duplicates, many cases don't have anything to do with refugees at all, it's all just there to create and support a narrative in a "shoveling bullshit" way.
By now it's become literally impossible to Google any unbiased news about any of this as the searches are dominated by the same few headlines spread across hundreds of blogs repeating the same tired narratives.
But you made up your mind about the situation already, it won't matter what I say or link here, nothing is gonna change your mind because disregarding me is as easy as claiming that every MSM has "bias" or how the "benevolent Governments" are in on it and now censor all the social media everywhere, hiding all these refugee crimes for their secret agenda of "replacing white people" or whatever.
Tbh I'm simply tired of it all, the hate, the lies, the lies for the sake of creating hate and violence. I wish there'd be an easy solution to any of this, but contrary to some populist claims, there ain't.
[0] https://www.thelocal.de/20170214/mass-sexual-assaults-by-ref...
[1] https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1_rNT3k2ZXB-f9z-2nS...