>These 4 companies (and more) have done more good than all the goodness of your heart will ever do
Oh, certainly. Can we start listing all the bad they've done now? Because I can't, not even in a hundred lifetimes, do as much evil as those four.
>That for some to win others must lose. No. This is just flawed.
Indeed. If you're living in a dream.
However, in most of the cases, many people are losing, and few are winning.
>These companies should be left to be as big as they can get.
It went so well in the past! Employees working at the company, paid in company scrips, eating at the company store, sleeping in the company bed. Corruption at the highest levels. Look at Samsung's level of involvement in South Korea's government, certainly something you want, right?
>You can also start your own conglomerate!
Absolutely! Unless you are poor, not living in a first world country, not living in a place where you have any chance of getting your company to a sizable level, ... Also, hopefully said conglomerates you are challenging will not do anything to crush you, because they have the ability to do so, a thousand times over.
>people who wake up earlier than you, push harder than you and take more personal responsibility than you.
I know people who make up earlier than me, who push harder than me and take on more personal responsibility than me. They're bricklayers. They're artisans. They're cashiers. They're working two jobs. They're working infinitely harder than you, I or Larry Page have ever worked. And yet, here we all are, in better health, with more money, with more free time and a more satifying job than them. Go tell them they aren't at this level because they aren't working hard. I fucking dare you.
>This is wrong. Plain wrong and I'm unashamed to say it. Why do we want to repeat failed experiments with egalitarianism. Every where it has been tried, it has failed miserably. Empirically, anti-capitalism has been a disaster.
Two things:
* You seem to be assuming I want communism. You're wrong. Unless we're getting fully automated luxury gay space communism, in which case, yes.
* I am not advocating anti-capitalism. I am recognising the merits of this system. I am also recognizing its flaws, and the need for it to evolve.
You're putting more value on the accumulation of wealth to a few people than to the well-being of society. I have those swapped around, and think your ideas are utterly fucked up, that's all. You're more than welcome to think the same of my ideas. You are being beaten with a whip, but somehow feel the need to defend your masters bnecause after all, you're not beaten that much. Not only is it stupid, you're forgetting the other people getting beaten, much more than you.
Millions have died from the perils of ideas such as yours so forgive me if I don't take your word for it.
>> Can we start listing all the bad they've done now?
You bet. List said evils and I guarantee you the sheer weight of the good in comparison will invalidate your claims.
>> Indeed. If you're living in a dream. However, in most of the cases, many people are losing, and few are winning.
Actually wealth over time has increased for majority of humans so you're WRONG. Things are getting better.
>> Look at Samsung's level of involvement in South Korea's government, certainly something you want, right?
Again, one simple instance of something that's gone awry that's incomparable to the magnitude of good that Samsung has done for the people in its country and around the world.
>> Absolutely! Unless you are poor, not living in a first world country, not living in a place where you have any chance of getting your company to a sizable level
I come from and live in a 3rd world country in Africa. I've had a mentor and director in my previous start up who started with nothing (I mean dirt poor) and built up a company that makes something in the order of tens of millions of dollars per year. Certainly no Amazon or Microsoft but no mean feat either. He in turn has friends who do way better than him. Point is, if he can do it, anyone in the world can do it and people should just stop complaining.
>> They're working infinitely harder than you, I or Larry Page have ever worked. And yet, here we all are, in better health, with more money, with more free time and a more satifying job than them. Go tell them they aren't at this level because they aren't working hard. I fucking dare you.
I'm a web developer now. I wasn't always. Before this, I did some of that hard labor you're talking about. I welded and did grunt work all while I took Lynda tuts by Kevin Skoglund to learn PHP.
>> You're putting more value on the accumulation of wealth to a few people than to the well-being of society.
I'm putting more value on common sense. My brother and I are avid readers of Austrian economics. Hans-Hermann hoppe even corresponds directly with my brother via email. I'm so glad we came across these works; they provided a level of clarity that I only see embodied in the valley by Peter Thiel. The reason I bring this up is:
We were recently discussing the dynamics of the economy of a local town nearby and here's what we noticed; there was a cycle with which resources moved about in the town; my brother runs a supermarket, he has a barber and gets a haircut, pays the barber. Some local suppliers will pass by while dropping of shipments and get a haircut, they pay the barber. The barber will at the end of the day need some groceries; he'll get them at the supermarket. And the cycle goes on and on. The most likely reason for someone not to earn a living in that town is that they aren't working - providing a good or service to someone else. That is all money is. There is very little dignity in handouts. There's nothing more fulfilling than rightfully earning what's yours.
I've noticed that what most people call the far right is basically a rebellion against common sense and basic rules of economics. I'm glad Trump won. If not for anything else, just as a statement that however far the left has gone, a subsequent and compelling statement had to be made. That statement was Trump.
>Millions have died from the perils of ideas such as yours so forgive me if I don't take your word for it.
I'd count the deaths due to capitalism deeming a cause not profitable enough to solve its problems, but you are going to ignore it anyways because it doesn't fit your world view.
Also, you are once again assuming I want communism, and that the only viable alternative is capitalism. You're wrong on both points.
>Actually wealth over time has increased for majority of humans so you're WRONG. Things are getting better.
Yet it has concentrated even more in the hands of the few. And quality of life, for many, has been down. I see you have a passion for cold hard cash, but basic things such as being able to live with dignity with a job, being able to get your illnesses treated, having good mental health are to be ignored.
>I come from and live in a 3rd world country in Africa. I've had a mentor and director in my previous start up who started with nothing (I mean dirt poor) and built up a company that makes something in the order of tens of millions of dollars per year. Certainly no Amazon or Microsoft but no mean feat either. He in turn has friends who do way better than him. Point is, if he can do it, anyone in the world can do it and people should just stop complaining.
I assume I know which country you're talking about from your history but I can't type it out because dear @dang will be angry otherwise.
I have a few questions:
* Do you believe all the people he grew up poor with and are still poor stayed poor because they're lazy ?
* Do you believe there is seriously an opportunity for every single person he grew up poor with to build a $10Million business?
* Do you believe all his friends that are making more are here because they were all poor people and they all worked hard, or simply because having money means that you are now always around people who also themselves have money?
* I thought we were talking about building conglomerates able to rival Amazon or Google? :^)
>I'm a web developer now. I wasn't always. Before this, I did some of that hard labor you're talking about. I welded and did grunt work all while I took Lynda tuts by Kevin Skoglund to learn PHP.
So you know exactly the path that is needed, how hard it is to take it, and still you disregard the need to provide everyone with good standards of living. You're the living embodiment of the "fuck you, I got mine" mentality. You've been beaten by the very system you are praising, and instead of wishing for the next generation to have it easier, you are telling them to look at how good things are for you now! But considering you are praising Thiel after, that's not exactly surprising.
Also, big news, not all of us can be developers. I'm not talking in a mental ability point of view. We still need a ton of people doing the manual labor you speak of. And we're not going to need millions of people building the next shitty CRUD app when their jobs have been automated.
>There is very little dignity in handouts. There's nothing more fulfilling than rightfully earning what's yours.
Yes. People are not enjoying handouts. I've had handouts, it's been some of the worst times in my life. You go through crippling depression, isolation, are being judged by everyone, including people like you calling it "handouts" when it's a basic goddamn right in the country I live in. You can't do anything because you barely have any money.
Now apply that to the people under poverty levels who ARE working. Go tell that to six million germans. Go tell that to the millions of americans living through that.
>I've noticed that what most people call the far right is basically a rebellion against common sense and basic rules of economics. I'm glad Trump won. If not for anything else, just as a statement that however far the left has gone, a subsequent and compelling statement had to be made. That statement was Trump.
Mmmmh, delicious white supremacist statements. Lovely racism and authoritarian reactions. Sexy removal of whatever healthcare the country had, leaving millions to die because they are still poor even though they are working, sometimes multiple jobs. Oh, wait, weren't you talking about millions dying from the perils of my ideas? You lived in a country that, until a few decades ago was one of the most egregious examples of how bad racism is for society. But hey, if it proves one of your points, who cares about the people who will actually be impacted by his decisions.
I'm from Kenya. I'm black. I don't think Trump is a racist. Anytime there's no valid argument to make against conservatism, it comes down to; they're all a bunch of racists.
Today, more and more people are coming out of poverty. I see it everyday and it's remarkable. It's all directly attributable to free enterprise and technology (or shitty CRUD apps like you call them).
Not too long ago, the level of poverty all around me was just at crazy levels. Not so much today. I'll tell you what it feels like when a people have to rely on government handouts and foreign aid; it's dehumanizing. When people actually earn what's theirs, they have joy and pride in themselves. They feel capable. Something changed in my country, in a big way in the last 10 - 15 years. Government got out of the way of free enterprise at least on some level. Corporations that were owned by government were privatized and left to businessmen to run them. They thrived. They became big corporations that hired many many people. What's even better, not only did they employ, they supported SMEs buy becoming their biggest produce buyers. Some of these SMEs (or cooperatives) grew so quickly that they became even bigger than the corporations they were supplying produce to. All of a sudden millionaires sprung up everywhere (they weren't programmers either).
Not too long ago, when government run them, they were dying.
There's such a spirit of entrepreneurship and capitalism today that it's all people talk about. When you tune into vernacular radio stations, you'll notice one thing, the most consistent topic of discussion is wrapped around how to grow businesses. How to increase their agricultural yield. How, where and when to sell their produce. People want to be self sufficient. It gives them dignity.
When I hear people talk about how government should intervene in the affairs of private enterprise, I cringe. Today, the biggest corporation we have in terms of market cap is Safaricom. You might have heard of one of their products - MPesa. The corporation has grown to be very big and important. Would you then recommend that they should split it into smaller companies because it is getting bigger and bigger by the day? They're able to offer better service and incredible products such as M-Shwari (a credit facility that's helped millions). Let me tell you about a time when government intervened in telecoms in a previous era. Before Safaricom, there was Telkom Kenya a government owned and run corporation. It was horrible. Their employees would make long-distance calls with your phone line and you would get an enormous bill at the end of the month. You couldn't trust your phone either - government could be listening in. We had a REAL authoritarian leader called Moi and he would use these govt corporations to further his influence into people's lives. Everyone and I mean everyone was scared of him to the point that people couldn't have any private conversations and not worry. Our grandparents still feel that way sometimes and it may be funny to us but you can see that they take it seriously in their hearts.
Anything government touches becomes horrific. For this reason, philosophically and fundamentally, I will always oppose government intervention and involvement. Government produces evils as far as I'm concerned and there should be less of it. If I was an American, I would be a conservative advocating for less and less government.
When Obama came to Kenya, our President basically told him off with regards to imposing values that were inconsistent with our African beliefs and culture. When I look at black leaders that I would support in America, Ben Carson comes to mind without a doubt. I salute Ben Carson and what he stood for in his campaign. He was stellar. Here's a black man starting from the bottom and look at what he's done (again, not a brogrammer). If he can do it, nobody has an excuse. When I think of America's heritage and what makes it great; the Kochs come to mind. Their dad, incredibly paranoid of communism, started something that they took and grew to what I'd call a utility to many Americans. I salute the Koch brothers (classical liberals - the best kind of liberals). What they've done should be praised not shunned. Yes, I salute Peter Thiel too. I learnt so much from him and most importantly, he introduced me to the marvelous works of Hans-Hermann Hoppe who in turn turned me up to Ayn Rand, Edmund Burke, Murray Rothbard, Ludwig Von Mises and Joseph De Maistre.
You made me go on a Yeezy-esque rant but there you have it.
May be. But it's better to be hopeful when that's all you have. Stay positive always.
EDIT: Goes back to the pragmatism I alluded to earlier. We can choose to either rely on chance or hard-work/self reliance. I choose the latter. And yes, most times it is mutually exclusive.
It seems I can't win with you. Before I disclosed my location, it was implied that I couldn't understand because I probably hadn't been through tough times and as such I couldn't sympathize. After I talked about my history, now it's survivorship bias? You want to have your cake and eat it.
In any case, your comparison between coin flipping and putting in the effort towards meaningful work is disingenuous. Bad analogy in my thinking.
First, I am not the person you have been discussing with. I only responded to your concrete sentence which is in my view incorrect.
>But it's better to be hopeful when that's all you have. Stay positive always.
>We can choose to either rely on chance or hard-work/self reliance.
In this wording, I totally agree and am following the same path myself. However, it does not mean that everyone who follows it will be successful, or that we do not need to improve our system to increase the chances. There are definitely billions of hard-working people who deserve a better life but do not get it.
You'll live.
>These 4 companies (and more) have done more good than all the goodness of your heart will ever do
Oh, certainly. Can we start listing all the bad they've done now? Because I can't, not even in a hundred lifetimes, do as much evil as those four.
>That for some to win others must lose. No. This is just flawed.
Indeed. If you're living in a dream.
However, in most of the cases, many people are losing, and few are winning.
>These companies should be left to be as big as they can get.
It went so well in the past! Employees working at the company, paid in company scrips, eating at the company store, sleeping in the company bed. Corruption at the highest levels. Look at Samsung's level of involvement in South Korea's government, certainly something you want, right?
>You can also start your own conglomerate!
Absolutely! Unless you are poor, not living in a first world country, not living in a place where you have any chance of getting your company to a sizable level, ... Also, hopefully said conglomerates you are challenging will not do anything to crush you, because they have the ability to do so, a thousand times over.
>people who wake up earlier than you, push harder than you and take more personal responsibility than you.
I know people who make up earlier than me, who push harder than me and take on more personal responsibility than me. They're bricklayers. They're artisans. They're cashiers. They're working two jobs. They're working infinitely harder than you, I or Larry Page have ever worked. And yet, here we all are, in better health, with more money, with more free time and a more satifying job than them. Go tell them they aren't at this level because they aren't working hard. I fucking dare you.
>This is wrong. Plain wrong and I'm unashamed to say it. Why do we want to repeat failed experiments with egalitarianism. Every where it has been tried, it has failed miserably. Empirically, anti-capitalism has been a disaster.
Two things:
* You seem to be assuming I want communism. You're wrong. Unless we're getting fully automated luxury gay space communism, in which case, yes.
* I am not advocating anti-capitalism. I am recognising the merits of this system. I am also recognizing its flaws, and the need for it to evolve.
You're putting more value on the accumulation of wealth to a few people than to the well-being of society. I have those swapped around, and think your ideas are utterly fucked up, that's all. You're more than welcome to think the same of my ideas. You are being beaten with a whip, but somehow feel the need to defend your masters bnecause after all, you're not beaten that much. Not only is it stupid, you're forgetting the other people getting beaten, much more than you.