Being a landlord, hiring people, working directly with the general public (retail, food service) are eye opening experiences.
I watched my father be the kind of land lord anyone would hope to have just to watch some people destroy his property and treat him with hostility.
Now I know why your landlord treats you like he expects the worst from you.
I hired people for work they cared about (non profit), treated them well, the earned prestige and leadership experience they couldn't have had in their previous jobs just to watch them turn on me and spread lies and toxicity and try to destroy the organization because I praised someone else's work too.
Now I know why companies treat people like they expect the worst from them.
I worked at a Taco Bell and Starbucks. People yelled at us and treated us like scum for the offense of working for minimum wage.
Apparently people who make more than minimum wage automatically have more intrinsic human value? I'll never know. But I know I'll excuse a lot with retail and food workers because my life is roughly 30x times better than theirs.
I don't know about people actually believing they have more intrinsic value because they make more than minimum wage, I just think the problems comes from a few areas:
- They were/are getting treated like shit and are transferring the energy on
- People are increasingly 'busy' leading to higher levels of stress and anxiety that just have them snapping easier
- There's a lot more of us than there used to be, so even if the percentages stayed constant, there's a lot more f%cking twats running around out there
Especially with younger people I professionally interact with (I'm 34), but also with age peers, I've noticed that a shockingly large percentage have never had that job experience of working at a place that was crappy, for minimal pay, bad hours, tough work, etc. Generally they didn't work at all until maybe a couple of internships in college, or some other form of light entry into the workforce. I think it really does something to create a lack of empathy for those people not in a situation exactly like ours.
My personal belief is it doesn't matter what our two situations are, being an asshole is being an asshole. If you're going to be a jerk to someone who's working a random lunch counter, you're probably just generally a jerk the majority of the time. Wealth, status, fame, are no excuses for a lack of human decency.
I dated someone who lived in a Section 8 housing complex. It was a major eye opener. Every one was terrible to every one else. I'd never seen anything like it. It validated the observation that the middle class has nothing to worry about from the lower class, they're too busy tearing into each other.
Generally, people behave poorly, are easily controlled/distracted, when they're scared and stressed. Like when they can't pay their bills. This Great Unraveling, where no one feel financially stable or secure, is turning everyone into savages.
I wouldn't generalize too much based on a single experience.
I live nearby a low income city owned apartment complex. It's not a high rise, but is more dense than the surrounding houses.
There are many elderly people there who go out of their way to be nice to me and my family when we walk by. But there are others who don't have enough respect for the neighborhood not to just throw their garbage on the street. Literally garbage bags in front of their doors on their sidewalk (they have garbage cans less than 20 ft away which they could instead use). I wish I could understand why they don't see this as their own neighborhood and should treat it with more respect.
Generally what I notice is that there are some people with some mental issues who just yell and scream at people randomly. They need more than just housing help, but hey this is America, healthcare for those at the top is great. Then there are the elderly who IMO are the ones most deserving of the housig help.
Generally something feels broken, but I'm not clear what the fix is, it's definitely not one thing. And I don't think it's just money, because anyone living there is getting a substantially lower rent than market rate, and that's really my main point. I don't believe the root cause is money, as much as it's less education; mental or physical issues that make traditional work hard; and some misaligned societal incentives. Those all lead to financial issues that landed them there; basically financial hardship for many that I see is more of a symptom of a greater societal problem. I'm definitely no expert, and have never had to deal with any of that personally.
Psychopaths are very much over-represented amongst the richest (didn't get caught) and poorest (did get caught.) There aren't too many who took a middle path and ended up with middling results.
I used to volunteer with meals on wheels in Harlem, and I swear the people in those buildings were 10x nicer and friendlier than the people in my own lower manhattan apt building.
In the projects, people always make eye contact and say "good morning"; in my building, people pretended like the other tenants didn't exist.
I think like some countries do mandatory military service, mandatory retail experience would do a lot of good for some people. Not until you have dealt with retail or restaurant customers are you truly armored against harshness the world. Seeing it from the other side also helps to build empathy for the people working the retail space.
As a parent, I am sure as hell going to have my kid working a retail job for at least a few summers. It helps kids realize the kind of job they'll have if they don't work hard for something better (that was a huge incentive for me) and the kind of shit retail workers put up with (and that you should try to make their lives better).
My first 'real' job in HS I worked in the warehouse at Circuit City as seasonal staff (getting ready for the holidays) in 1998/99. 5am Saturday truck unloads, snotty people pissed that you can't fit a 32" CRT in the back seat of a Honda Civic, getting 100+ pound TVs from 3 stories up. Eventually I got the happy talk that I was no longer seasonal, I was sticking around- I was the only warehouse guy that got that and I was proud, even though it was $7/hr job with me carrying heavy shit, my work ethic was being acknowledged.
You learn a lot about gracefully doing things you don't really want to and finding a way to be the best you can be at the task at hand and deriving your satisfaction from doing the best you can, knowing that you gave it honest effort. I hustled my ass off, it was mindless, things were heavy and I was the big strong guy- that meant I got 90% of the fridges and rear projections and monster CRTs (looking at you Sony). I became 'that guy' for something, I had a 'skill' useful to the business that stood above others, that became my motivation. Do good work, stand out with quality.
Follow that with stints as a motorcycle mechanic, a farm hand on a dairy farm, a job site laborer, and a summer doing roofs- there's literally nothing I can be asked to do in an office environment that is more grueling or requires more effort than any of those things- and I pay more in taxes every year than I probably made at all of those jobs combined.
I've been in the middle of some pretty shitty projects where I was having to give people the pep talks to keep them from quitting or to see it through to the end. 24+ year old 'adults' literally crying about not being able to take it anymore. I don't look down on them for being emotional, hell, I don't look down on them at all, but my first thought every time is you have no idea what a tough day of work really is.
As an aside, I'm not talking about not being able to handle harassment or some type of political infighting or all of those interpersonal issues that can have real and lasting emotional consequences. I'm talking about a shitty project or grueling stretch of work that has gone sideways that has everyone working long hours to try and save it.
> you have no idea what a tough day of work really is.
It seems like people have pretty varied relations to this stuff. I've worked in landscaping, bussing tables, stocking groceries, counter at a bagel shop, among others—and my reflections now are generally on how nice and easy it was to do that work. Being exhausted physically (e.g. 10 hour grocery stocking shifts and 4 mile bike ride each way, uphill on the way back) has upsides to it. There's a kind of satisfaction that happens afterward—you worked hard, and now you're finished. When things are bad in software development, they're just bad: you don't feel rewarded for going through the struggle, and there are rarely neat conclusions to things.
Additionally, people may just be 'wired differently' (or have different life experiences or whatever), so that when you see the 24+ year old adults crying, the may actually be going through something more difficult than what you've experienced in a work context.
> Additionally, people may just be 'wired differently'...
That leads back to my statement about not judging them per se. I can't ever imagine work/business related stuff, or even just general stress leading me to tears. But I'm also hyper logical and tears just aren't how I shed that storm cloud. I don't look at it as a macho or manly thing either, some of the most rugged 'manly' men that I've ever met (special forces, ridiculous outdoorsmen, Olympic wrestler), and admire greatly for their intestinal fortitude would shed a tear at all kinds of things I couldn't imagine, I just don't think stress would be one of them.
I also fully expect in most cases that a root cause for an unexpectedly 'over the top' reaction probably has to do more with something I'm either oblivious to or something else that's going on.
Worked in retail in various positions and I would also recommend the retail experience for any aspiring entrepreneur, especially folks tumbling down the e-commerce rabbit hole.
Being able to provide good customer service while under fire builds character. That or it will break you and you will flee retail like the plague.
I think it's a huge character builder. You realize that some people are outright assholes and the most annoying thing you can do to them is keep your cool and kill them with kindness. Others are actually stupid, but most are just uninformed about whatever it is when they're 'bothering' you with questions.
There are so many sysiphian tasks in retail that you either come to the point where very little can shock you, or you're just kind of broken.
This reminds me of a comment I made on a programming blog a while ago:
"I sometimes wonder if young programmers should be required to work for a year in a cube farm with fluorescent lighting, no windows and only instant coffee. Say in a government department or something. We could think of it as the IT equivalent of compulsory military service."
> being an asshole is being an asshole. If you're going to be a jerk to someone who's working a random lunch counter, you're probably just generally a jerk
I'd take it step further. You should be gracious to a fault to the person at the lunch counter. Their life categorically sucks.
I'm of the same opinion, they're working for minimum wage or near enough to it, maybe just being nice to them will make their day a bit better.
I've worked those jobs, and have been abused for an incompetent (or lying) boss. It's not my fault, please don't scream at me.
One guy did shout at me while I was out on a job, and then when I finished he gave me a bottle of a nice wine by way of gratitude for the work done and apology. That put a spring in my step (even if I don't drink wine).
Be nice to front line staff, because as you say, their lives suck.
> I'd take it step further. You should be gracious to a fault to the person at the lunch counter. Their life categorically sucks.
That's awfully fucking judgmental. I've got friends who have been working in the service industry their whole life. Many of them are much happier than I am. Just because you have some high paying office job doesn't mean your life is automatically better.
I worked retail customer service and then tech support for years before I got a high paying office job.
Money doesn't makes life your life automatically better, but it does make it many times easier. It won't solve all your problems, but solves a heck of a lot of them.
I try to treat service employees well, not because of some patronizing sense of responsibility, but because I empathize with their position.
They have a crappy job and low pay. Dealing with the stress of computer generated everchanging schedules, rude customers, and management that treats you like a child is bad enough. When you couple that with barley making enough to survive, it's a pretty tough existence (realitive to my own).
> I try to treat service employees well, not because of some patronizing sense of responsibility, but because I empathize with their position.
That sounds like a patronizing sense of responsibility. I treat service employees the same as I treat everyone else I meet - like a person. Not because they're serving me food/coffee, or because I have some sort of empathy for their situation (I do, I worked retail for a long time), but because they're human beings just like me.
> But I guarantee that you don't treat all people exactly equally.
No, I don't, and it would be incorrect to do so. I don't treat my solicitor the same as my barista, I have different relationships with those people. But for someone I don't know, I treat everyone equally, be they rich, poor, serving me, being served by me, saying hello on the street, etc.
> How often do you leave a tip for a service person (beyond what is expected). How often do you tip your dentist, or your lawyer?
There's an enormous difference between tipping people and treating them respectfully. When I order a coffee, I don't ever shout or abuse the people that are serving me. If there's a mistake, I'll be polite and point it out. If there's still an issue at that point, I'll be a little less polite and probably not return.
When I phone my solicitor, I'm always polite. I don't shout at them, or abuse them, and if there's a mistake, I point it out. I treat everyone the way I would want to be treated if the roles were reversed.
I think the parent comment was implying that I don't treat everyone equally, e.g. I don't tip everyone that I interact with, when really that has nothing to do with it.
People do. A lot. My father was an ophthalmologist,and people really dig being able to see. It was just an endless parade of gifts and people stopping by to say thank you at our household.
>>That sounds like a patronizing sense of responsibility. I treat service employees the same as I treat everyone else I meet - like a person.
I think it's totally OK to treat some people more nicely than you treat others, based on what you know about their position or what they are going through.
What if they aren't working there to survive? What if they are just teenagers living at home for some spending money? Or a retired person just trying to get out of the house?
Or someone working retail or service job in Singapore which has 0% unemployment? The answer, the most expensive worst service people in the world. The don't care about their job because there are 3 more waiting for them. There's also a huge social safety net there. It's not that there's no incentive to do well. It's perverse to say, but people sometimes don't care when you take away the floor.
> They have a crappy job and low pay. Dealing with the stress of computer generated everchanging schedules, rude customers, and management that treats you like a child is bad enough. When you couple that with barley making enough to survive, it's a pretty tough existence (realitive to my own).
It's possible to make quite a nice living working F&B, a customer service job, in a tourist town. Don't just assume everyone working a role is beneath you and living some kind of shit existence.
Their are people making a nice living in every industry. The overwhelming majority of service workers do not.
There's a possibility that my middle-aged waitress is independently wealthy and just doing this for fun, that doesn't stop me from leaving a $100 at Christmas time.
It's not because I think I'm better than her, it's because in all likelihood, I've been just a bit luckier than her financialy.
> It's not because I think I'm better than her, it's because in all likelihood, I've been just a bit luckier than her financialy.
This is exactly what people here are talking about. The $100 tip shouldn't have anything to do with you being luckier financially, it should be a gesture of appreciation. A $100 tip isn't a gesture of appreciation normally, it's a gesture of "I am more fortunate than you, but I take pity on you so here you are."
so not only are you passing judgment on an act of goodwill, you are manufacturing the fundamental motivation and putting it into someone else's head as well.
that's called projection. you surely would have come across that in all your pop psych and pop philosophy reading that you are obviously doing lately, right?
Yes, a good percentage of people suck. They are nasty, selfish and, TBH, just assholes. The best thing you can do in life is to surround yourself with good, honest, hardworking, thoughtful people that you can care about. Excise toxic people from your life/business as soon as they are discovered. That is all you can do.
> Now I know why your landlord treats you like he expects the worst from you.
I'm glad not to be a landlord. People's lives are messy and complicated, and as a landlord, you're forced to be exposed to some of that. As a tenant, I try to be quiet, leave the place like I found it, and not socialize with the owner. Rental contracts are great for drawing boundaries in what could otherwise be an extremely awkward relationship: "I don't trash your place, and you don't look into my life."
> I worked at a Taco Bell and Starbucks. People yelled at us and treated us like scum for the offense of working for minimum wage.
A good manager at a Taco Bell* or Starbucks would put a stop to that. It's so frustrating when you're just trying to get along and have to go along with the a-holes of the world.
* I worked at a Taco Bell in the 90s that was fortunately managed by two of the best managers in the region.
My prism for the whole world is punching up vs punching down.
I've had the shit jobs, lived hand to mouth. I never grief the help. I don't condone people being dicks, ever. But I cannot abide by those who prey on the weaker.
I'm glad you mentioned working at Taco Bell and Starbucks because it makes my comment less off topic. I was wondering, if there are certain industries which give you a "real" insight into the human condition. I think being a landlord is an excellent example and another one that I have some experience with, enough to know that other people see a lot, is Bartending. I think that industry, with enough experience, could be a really enlightening look into the "true nature" of people. Does anyone have an idea of what some other good examples might be?
The many issues involved in being a landlord throw doubts on the theory that too much money is being made by "rentiers", at the expense of "real entrepreneurs".
You are totally right, and everyone who has been a landlord or hired people will agree, but all the others, including the majority of people here on HN, will say you have a problem, you only see the worst of people blablabla.
There's a lesson in this piece in community, and how the rich and fortunate should treat those they deal with, just perhaps as in the movie It's a Wonderful Life:
'My dad gave himself over to that place. He kept a shoe-repair place in business for nearly thirty years by breaking policy, by being patient with the billing, by cajoling, by any means necessary, because he respected the man who ran it, a guy I knew only as Clarence. He fought to keep the supermarket open for the urban customer base who had nowhere else to go for groceries without getting on a bus. I believe he provided small loans to start-up businesses. I know he waited out their rent checks. He kept things running as landlord, even at some cost. He did it for the betterment of the city.
In his residential spaces, he was loathe to raise the rent even after many years. Especially after many years. He dropped off cases of beer and huge boxes of Italian cookies to make his tenants feel appreciated. He gave rent abatements when people got cancer. He gave graduation presents, anniversary presents, sent handwritten notes and newspaper clippings to his tenants and their families. While I'm sure some people hated the landlord in him, I believe my dad treated his tenants with honor as long as they did the same for the space he provided (and didn't run up the house account at Wilson Hardware). I know this because people stopped me—on the floor of the mall, in the street, at the reception after my father's death—to testify to it. I came to see that my father was known by many, if not all, as a kind steward of place. This is as much as any landlord can hope to be.'
Great section of the article. It reminds me how much my kids watch and learn from me. The author's father shaped so much of how he sees the world and aspires to be.
This was a good reminder that your kids notice every kindness you pay to others.
If none of this sounds appealing to you, consider investing in a real estate investment trust (REIT). These are companies that purchase office buildings, hotels, and other properties and distribute their rental income as dividends. For example, Vanguard has a diversified REIT ETF with a minuscule expense ratio and a healthy 4% yield: https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/snapshot?FundIntExt=I...
It only represents a very small part of my portfolio, and I've been DRIPing it for a while. If you were thinking of buying in before the large dividends (quarterly), don't bother because the price will change on the ex-dividend date to reflect the dividend being recorded. Also, the rebalancing is monthly.
Real estate looks as if it is way over-priced at this point. If you don't want the tax benefits of owning a rental, why not index fund your money, then you would be almost double the 4% long-term, either way.
I agree a lot of hot metros are looking expensive (SF, Seattle).
Things are cheaper in places farther from growth and money, e.g. rural Indiana. I'm not sure whether they're better deals on balance, but quite different.
REIT investors aren't the cause of high rents. Actually the opposite. Every dollar they put in lowers the cost of capital for property developers and encourages the construction of new housing units.
Real estate value (as represented by REITs) has been going up despite increases in the Fed Funds rate. This implies a discount-to-book value. I think we still have a bit to go.
I've never done it but I've heard stories. One particularly nasty one was from a landlord who entered a recently vacated property a few weeks after the tenants left. He found a dead dog who had obviously been left alive. There were scratches and bites and claw marks and filth everywhere where the dog had tried to get out and then to eat carpets, cabinets, etc. The place was generally trashed and infested with roaches that hadn't been there when it was rented. He found it so disturbing he started selling properties after that and exiting the business. (He also called the cops on that one. Not sure if anything happened as a result.)
He said that was the worst but he had other pretty insane stories: domestic abuse, meth cooking, Fear and Loathing levels of trashing the place, etc.
There's a lot of real nasty and/or disturbed people out there. Anything that gives you a lot of unfiltered contact with the general public shows you that. It's depressing and frightening.
I just did a post on here about being a landlord... domestic abuse... it's a real mess. And it just eats your profitability -- not to sound callous.
I had a tenant who hit his girlfriend. They were both on the lease. Anyway she filed charges against him (good for her!) but that meant I had to let her off the lease. Her dipshit boyfriend couldn't pay for the place on his own... so then I was left in a situation where I got paid like 1/2 rent one month, then had to give him 30 days for free to vacate...
The girl called me in tears, "Can I please get my security deposit back I moved out already?" I was like, "No, sorry... I can't give that back until I do the exit walk through, and you're already behind at least half a month on rent..." and then, "I'm sorry but your shithead boyfriend didn't clean up the place after he left..."
I felt for her, but not a lot I could do other than eat the loss she was causing me by having horrible taste in men. I feel like a jerk saying that... but I didn't feel like the burden should fall on me... She got all snarky with me, threatened to hire a lawyer... but nothing ever came of it... I ended up taking their entire security deposit, and still having to pay out of pocket for cleaning services.
Domestic violence creates a no-win situation. I'm out money, and it's not like my mortgage and taxes stopped because she had drama in her life... I really just wanted to tell her, "Be more careful, and have higher standards next time around..." but of course that would have been rude and uncalled for. The whole thing just sucked. I still feel guilty about it... and there's no reason I should, she signed the lease agreement.
I think it means that the father preferred to view the relationship as one of equals or partners. When the tenant starts playing games with the rent that forces the father's hand and makes the relationship adversarial in nature.
The sentiment reminds me of people who view their boss as the enemy always out to screw them vs an equal they work with to accomplish company goals. It depends a great deal on the general demeanor of the boss for sure but basic professionalism on the part of the employee goes a long way to keeping the boss from having to be the bad guy.
I think you're glossing over a very important part of this: the power imbalance. It's easy for bosses (or landlords) to think of their relationships with subordinates/tenants as one of "equals" as long as it benefits them. As soon as they perceive it doesn't, however, that imbalance becomes very much front-and-center. Any notion of equality in the relationship is either an illusion or temporary and it's best for all parties if they behave as though they recognize the imbalance and understand what it means.
I consider my manager as an "equal". I respect his "role power", but working for a small IT department we very much have a partnership. His role is to get strategy and priorities from on high, my role is tactical - implement the best architecture and training in the way I see fit within the very broad guidelines that he sets.
He has the power to guide my job but I also have the power to leave and find another job.
That works nice, as long as it lasts. Do you think your manager views your relationship as a partnership? What happens when his boss jumps on him for failing to deliver something, delivering something poorly, etc.? Are you sure he's not going to serve you up as a scapegoat?
If i am the lead dev/architect and he gave me the latitude to implement it the way I thought was best, why would I be the "scapegoat" and not the person that should shoulder the blame for a poorly implemented project?
On the other hand I don't over promise. I've told everyone that they can either impose a deadline or features but not both. In other words, they can tell me these are the features they need and I can come back with a deadline after talking to the rest of the team, or they can tell me the deadline and we can discuss what features you can have by the deadline.
I'm not naive enough to think that everyone has a job where they can do that. But when I interviewed I was coming in to basically create a modern dev shop from scratch - source control, CI, automated testing, etc. with a group of developers who learned on the job without any formal training. I only accepted the job with the promise I would be given the time to set things up correctly.
I think the balance is not as universal as you make it out to be. As long as the employee/tenant is capable of leaving (and same with the employer/landlord), then the relationship will be equal as it is only continued to mutual benefit.
Not every business interaction has to be executed as a business interaction. It might be safer, it might make you more money, but it's ultimately just two people interacting.
The landlord didn't sound like they wanted to bring in the full power of their role into play in the relationship, would have preferred it keep it to more of a gentleman's agreement - an arrangement which is absolutely not in the landlord's favor. That they chose to not take up that full mantel in most interactions is to the renter's benefit.
While the landlord theoretically has more "power", tenants have them over the barrel, in a weird sort of way.
Tenants can decide not to pay, break stuff, make noise, waste tons of the landlord's time, etc. The worst the landlord can do without a ton of headache and hassle is ask the tenant to pay, then evict them and perhaps keep the security deposit.
As a commercial tenant, I run into this sort of "practiced politeness" all the time with my landlord. And I think it's common of people who'd rather not upset the status quo.
I was a landlord for over a decade. I worked with tenants to a point because the alternative - eviction was not an easy process. To evict someone you have to (it's been awhile so I've forgotten all of the legal terms):
1. Give them a 7 day notice
2. File an eviction notice with the court
3. The tenant then has 7 days to respond.
4. The tenant can respond with almost anything and then you have to wait for your court date - that can be two weeks to a month.
5. Then you show up to court and then you have to wait a week (?) to file another request from the court to schedule a policeman for a two hour window to evict them.
You must have a crew of 5 and must have all of their belongings on the street within 2 hours.
This whole process can take up to two months and each step costs time and money.
I would never become a landlord again unless it was part of an LLC with multiple tenants - at least 20 - where I would expect to make a profit with 75% occupancy and had a dedicated staff.
> The worst the landlord can do without a ton of headache and hassle is ask the tenant to pay, then evict them and perhaps keep the security deposit.
Or variations on that. I had a leaking water main. Got letters from the utility warning me. By the end of the saga my water bill was $400/mo.
Landlord / PM refused to do anything, or anything meaningful. Would not return calls. After I cornered them in person, they sent a "maintenance guy" who found nothing. It continued. All the while I'm paying this. After another month of harassment, they send a plumber who is "only authorized to do a visual inspection", not to go under the house, not to dig anywhere.
Unsurprisingly he finds nothing. Eventually it's so bad, as I say, that the utility is writing letters to me, the PM, the homeowner and reluctantly, they do something.
Shock, horror. It's found within two hours of light digging from the meter back. Fixed within another hour. Probably <$500.
Now, I write a nicely worded letter to the PM. Show them my water bills for the equivalent time the previous year, and say that I think I should be reimbursed for the nearly $1900 in utility overpayment caused by this problem and their tardiness in rectifying it.
Big mistake.
They start dodging those calls and letters. But, at the same time have staff drive by and start "fining" me for policy breaches at a rate of $125 per breach, plus $35 for an inspection fee, plus $15 for "delivery of notice", etc.
What kind of policy breaches, you ask? The most egregious? "Failure to maintain lawn". By which they meant that there was in the region of 4-6 dandelion heads a few inches above the grass which had been mowed /that morning/. So outraged by this was I that I took video, took photos, took the invoice from the lawn care company to the owner of the PM company and demanded that they show that this was anything more than retaliation, and that if they wanted to take things to court, to see how well they'd do at claiming I was a negligent tenant.
They still stalled. Called me a deadbeat who was trying to get out of my obligations. Told me that when she pulled up my file, they didn't owe me anything, in fact, I owed them over $3,000 in "fees for late rent"!
This, they said, stemmed from the fact that two or three years earlier, I had paid a partial rent check a week late and they'd tacked on a fee (fair and reasonable), that I didn't realize at the time, but were now claiming that because "they process fees, penalties and then rent, in that order" to any payment received, I had in fact been late all 40 or so months I had lived there, so had been fined $75/month every month since I moved in.
Bear in mind, this is the first I'd heard of this, at this point when I was trying to recover my money paid. In fact they'd renewed my lease twice, despite me "being a deadbeat", as they were now claiming.
After a couple of hours of calm discussion (a challenge at times), reviewing the "coincidence" that the PM had just "discovered" this discrepancy, along with my "failures to maintain", only at the time when I had asked to be reimbursed, the company owner finally acquiesced, and agreed that I did not owe any money, and that they would waive my next months rent.
Oh, and that she would instruct the PM to NOT, as she had been planning to do, report that three years plus delinquency to a credit agency.
So there are plenty of things landlords can do to make life painful. Categorizing it as "oh well, I can ask for money, and you can or cannot pay it, and maybe I'll get your deposit" is a little generous.
"dirty"? I don't think so. To me it connotes a certain distance at which the relationship is maintained. Similar to having lunch with a co-worker (who happens to be the CEO) versus having lunch with the CEO.
When you use business titles, it's a business relationship. When you don't, it's easier to be friendly acquaintances or even outright friends.
He also had a dog we didn't know about, and this was a unit that was right behind our house. Which mean he didn't take the dog out to shit, he just let it shit on the carpet. And all the dog shit, had toe prints in them... uck
Other than that it's been pretty good. A lot of people just work hard, and want a roof over their head.
Some tenants find a way around "no pets" policies by getting their pets classified as service animals under the ADA for "emotional support" or similar. While some people have a legitimate medical need the system is widely abused.
I've never been a landlord but have known two over the course of their rental property careers. They went from being amicable to noticing and expecting the worst from people, essentially becoming jaded. And the transformation is similar in quality to many police officers, how they wear an expression on their face as if humanity has broken their heart.
Watching this impacted me enough to decide that I'd never want to be a landlord. It's an odd position to be in in the first place. To be responsible, in a sense, for how others live.
I have a rental property... I used to live there, then I bought a house closer to work and rented out the original house with plans of moving back there some day. Now... I'll never move back. It's in a nice neighborhood, rent requires the people who live there to probably make $150-200k a year... you'd think it'd be OK... But nope. Anyway every part of the article is true.
The rest of this is just be venting for therapeutic reasons. Ha.
First... you really don't make that much money off the property. Once you pay for maintenance upkeep, and taxes, and taxes on the income you get as rent... you just aren't making much... if anything from the renters. I'm probably losing money on my renters... but I make it back (in theory) in property value gains.
Second... holy hell, some people just should never leave apartments. And all the stereotypes are true. You have to assume they are all out to fuck you over... and incompetent... if you don't, you'll be in for a lot of disappointment.
I rented to an Indian family for 12 months, and after I had to have the place scrubbed top to bottom, ducts all cleaned... and it still smelled like curry. New tenant was furious at me for "not cleaning"... I have no idea how to get the curry smell out. I spent over $2k in professional cleaning services... over 2x what it cost to de-cat-pee the place... now I never want to rent to another Indian family. We literally hand-washed the walls, twice... Then eventually repainted everything inside (another $4k)... the house has no carpets or curtains... no clue how the smell stayed. And I had to give a discount to the new tenant for 4 months because of the smell. There is a fan over the stove... but it clearly never got used when they were cooking.
I rented to a Chinese family for 6 months... and I think they moved like 10 people into a 3 bedroom house. I only met the first couple... but every time I went there were 2 cars in the garage, 2 in the driveway, and at least 4 on the street. And every time I would knock on the door a different person answered in broken English.
Families with kids... will trash your property. And they will bitch and bitch that things were broken before they moved in, their precious snowflakes didn't burn parts of the walls, or drill holes, or kick the drywall under their desk so much it cracked all up the wall...
Pets are disgusting. Cats stink. Dogs are destructive. I had to re-do the wood floors after a tenant's dog clawed them all to shit... had to sue the tenant for damages. "It's normal wear and tear!" they insisted... but they had a 120 pound dog whose nails they never bothered to trim. I got smart and just replaced everything with tile after that. For a rental... just pretend you're dealing with malicious jerks who are bent on destroying anything nice you put in the house... and then plan accordingly.
Tenants will lie and lie and lie again to get out of paying for damages. And worse than lie, they do shit that makes it hard to find the true damages... forget toothpaste in the walls to cover up nail holes... I had a tenant put duct tape over drywall and then use spackling paste and paint on top of that. It looked just good enough that if you were in a rush you may have signed off on his move out damages. I had another family try and prop a closet door up, one that took out the inner glass of a window so it wouldn't appear broken (still had the outer glass) -- but then it made it a harder job to replace the glass because they had bent the frame all to shit. Cost them more than if they would have just told me about the break in the first place...
They aren't at all honest about what they fuck up, and they don't have a clue what it costs to fix something correctly. "Man, faucets only cost like $40 at Costco... why you charging me $500?!" Well... because the faucets you destroyed were nice faucets that cost around $350 each, and there's an installation fee... and I'm not even charging you for the other faucet that I have to replace so the two will still match in the master... I'm also covering the damage to the granite counter top where you hit it with a hammer or whatever when you were trying to tighten your vice grips on the faucet handle instead of calling me when you initially broke it a year ago..."
Tenants always sneak in dogs, cats, extra roommates... My first lease agreement was 10 pages... the last one I used was about 45. It spells out everything that I know to include... plus penalties... "Don't sit on the damn roof, asphalt composite shingles are not meant to be walked on when it's 100 degrees outside... you're getting charged for replacing 1/3rd of the roof because you put lawn chairs up on the roof and literally were up there so often you wore a path in the shingles..." "Don't smoke in the house, but if you are going to smoke in the house... don't just cut the wires to the smoke alarms and just tuck them back up in the drywall."
Despite hiding all the shit they do, and bitching about things they notice... most of them are incompetent at owning a house... won't report water on the windowsill leaking in right away until there's rot in the wood and the whole frame has to be replaced... won't report a wasp nest growing out of the rafters in the roof until it's a $1,200 job to remove it... will let their kids hang off of the ceiling fans and fuck those all up... Some people should never live in a house... put them in an all brick apartment building with cement floors and reinforced windows. There's a reason public schools are built the way they are.
You lose so much faith in people when you rent property. If you don't assume they're all out to fuck you over... you'll get fucked over. It'll cost you a fortune in repairs, and so much hassle and stress because the dipshit who rented from you will fight you tooth and nail... and cry about every little cost... when in fact they aren't even paying 50% of what it really cost to get it repaired... let alone the time you lose because you can't rent it in the shitty condition they left it in.
You've just convinced me that I never want to be a landlord. I don't need to read any more. All of that stuff sounds like stuff out of my worst nightmare.
In fact, I don't even want to own a home any time soon. Sounds like way too much work.
You catch things that are broken early, so the repair is like a squirt of caulk instead of a whole new window frame. You can spray the wasps when the nest is small... not when it's grown so large an exterminator says, "Sorry my insurance won't cover me going up on a ladder for a nest that large... you'll have to call someone else..." Ha.
I really like doing home repairs / minor home improvements for myself. It's satisfying work, and on average I probably spend less than 2-3 hours a week on maintenance. I love doing yard work, I find it really relaxing. Mow the lawn, trim the trees... that sort of stuff. When you do it for yourself... you do it right, and you stay ahead of the entropy. With rentals you're relying on the tenant to report issues, and contracted help to take care of things... and they don't ever do as good of a job that you can do. Nothing I hate more than riding some handyman to re-do something the third time because he slopped it together... but it is what it is.
If you do buy a house, make sure to ask if it was a rental before you buy it. And regardless, DO NOT skimp on the home inspector... a good home inspector will spend a full day in your house, and charge you around $500-750 (that's in Texas, you can adjust for where you live). They will find all sorts of stuff that will save you money and give you negotiating power.
But yeah on the whole I really enjoy owning my own house. Just not so much renting... I bought when the value was like 1/2 what it is now... very tempting to sell the rental property... but it's been going up 10%+ a year... and I haven't had a tenant's lease end at a good time to sell (March - June are good times to sell in Texas, probably other places too... July - August are good times to have people sign leases).
Anyway I tell myself to just wait it out and give it a little more time... You always have to work for the money. (=
My family has been in the rental business for more than 30 years. I have 2 of my own. We never had any issues like the op mentions. A couple late payments and 2 evictions from lack of payment and that is it since I remember (I only started helping around 15 years ago, can't say what happened before).
Just really choose your tenants carefully. Better to have someone you know will take care of the house and get 400 a month then someone that can pay 500 but shows a lot of warning signs they will trash it. And if you are even remotely handy, a lot of the small fixes can be done by yourself in a matter of hours.
Sort of depends on the quality, right? I mean, I know your 400-500 range was an example... but the house I'm leasing out rents for like $3500 / month in Austin -- that's on the upper-side of things here. I can fix some things, provided I have time, but a lot of stuff I end up calling a handyman for if it needs to get fixed during the week, or if it's something "nice" that I don't want to mess up trying applying my amateur-level talents towards.
I said this in another post, but my worst tenant by far came from because they were a friend of a neighbor I trusted... it's easier said than done screening folks. You never really know what they are going to be like.
Glad you've had luck with it! Care to share any screening pointers? I'm happy with my current tenant... I did a criminal check, credit check, and asked for some references... but I've gotten those all come up aces in the past too and still had people trash the place. All I've found that works is a verbose contract spelling out penalties if they do things I don't want them to do.
(not in the USA, so things are a bit different, we can't do credit checks or criminal records for example) The tenants I have in my properties were relatives of people I knew. What we do here is we have a concept (fiador) where while you sign the lease yourself, another person/couple (usually parents) are financially responsible for any non payed rent/damages. This has the 2 benefits, a) the fiador knows he will be liable for any crap the renters do, so if they know they will trash the place they will refuse to sign (big warning sign) and b) you have 2 separate entities to go after for damages.
I fully believe that being a landlord could be shitty. Myself, I'd never do it because the idea of being legally culpable for how I choose whom I entrust with a significant portion of my savings.
Having said that, parent sounds like the type of landlord I wouldn't want to talk to, either. Granted, if I see a 45-page contract, I'm getting out of there. But he sounds like the type to make a very unpleasant experience of reporting the problems that he wants to know about.
As to the rest, that's why I wouldn't get into being a landlord.
You're not wrong... I mean... the first few tenants I was still very emotionally invested in the property. It was my first house, I wanted to move back there... I had just spent a fortune to me at the time decking it out the way I wanted it... but I had to move to be closer to work. My plan was to move back after a few years, so having people trash it really stung.
The first tenant just destroyed these beautiful new hardwood floors I had just put in the year before. Like their dog left run marks all over, and they refused to put any felt feet on their furniture and chairs (even though I provided them)... and they wore shoes and clearly never swept or cleaned so the floors that were all nice and shiny were just obliterated... it was heartbreaking to me. (I sued them and won; just saying that a judge sided with my assessment that they were needlessly hard on the property too.)
But yeah... now I just spell out expectations in the contract and document things and I know we can let the court sort it out if we need to. I always repair things (typically out of my own pocket) when they are reported as broken... like the first time one of my tenants hung some sort of wrought iron bookshelf in the drywall and it ripped out half the wall when it fell... I fixed it. But the second time they did it, that was on them. (And then there wasn't a third time because they knew it was expensive to fix.) When they don't report it, and I catch it during move out... it's on them -- what's the point of trying to be nice at that point? They're moving on... no sense letting them walk with my money.
But I've gotten a lot less emotionally attached to the house over the years... you need to be detached if you want to be a good landlord.
I guess what it comes down to is that a good landlord doesn't want to be exposed to destruction of a property he or she takes pride in, and a good renter doesn't want to get hosed on move-out, jerked around with slow maintenance throughout their time, or have their lives made unpleasant by other, out-of-control tenants.
Both renter and landlord probably expect similar distributions: almost all experiences fall between tolerable and good, with just a few outliers way out in "hellish nightmare." Unfortunately for renters, the signs of a conscientious landlord who's been burnt before can look very much like those for an aspiring slumlord in the way both shield themselves. And a conscientious renter who's been burnt before probably comes off similar to one who's really planning to abuse the landlord's patience.
A couple silly questions, if you're still watching this and care to answer:
1. Regarding the black smudges on the wall from furniture, is discovering several of those grounds for charging against deposit, an annoyance that you just take in stride, or something you expect of everyone?
2. Have you had tenants request additions or modifications to your contract, and have you accepted them?
Thanks for this. It is timely for me as we just bought a another home and I am wrestling daily to sell our current one when new one is ready, or rent it out. We are half way into a 30yr mortgage on it and I have grand visions of renting it to have other people pay off my mortgage for next 14 years and hate to let it go.
From the few in our circle of friends who have been landlords before, none of them have had any stories remotely like yours. They've all seemed to have had model tenants from what I've gathered. Worst cases are just a few have had their leases broken early and they are having to carry double mortgage payments for a month or two scrambling for another tenant. Or some have been late paying rent once in while and you have to chase them down.
They've all just told me it isn't that bad. Just make sure to do a thorough job in screening the applicants. Check credit history, job stabilty/length, etc. Some have even recommended to just pay a property management company to handle renting it out and such as the fee is well worth it.
I thought owning and accumulating real estate was the way to wealth and comfortable retirements so I wresting with letting my 1st house go so deep into a mortgage. I have some friends who own 3-4 homes. But reading this thread and story though, I am just not sure it is worth the trouble and risk of trying to rent it out. Unless of course I knew ahead of time prices would continue to rise unrealistically in my city forever.
You can make your own call... I mean... I'm still renting it out... it's financially beneficial. Just you can't have an emotional investment in the property.
The tenant family I have in there now is OK... they have kids who draw on walls and that sort of thing... and the Dad calls me to tell me he's "fixed" things instead of telling me they are broken... Who knows if he's fixing them correctly or just enough so they hold... but I like the guy. "Oh, you fixed this thing I didn't know was broken, that wasn't broken before you moved in, and now you want money off your rent? Uh... um..." (What's the appropriate response? Ha.)
Worst thing he's done is tell the gardener not to mow the lawn because they had a baby sleeping... so for a few months my gardener was charging me and not doing anything... I got a fine from the HOA that alerted me the lawn needed to be taken care of. (I haven't been in the property though so I don't know what it's really like inside.)
But I think I've got a good contact with them, and I've covered my bases with what it looked like before, I have like 300 images of every wall in room and every faucet and every cupboard... so... I guess worst case I just ding them for repairs. But look... the contract and the photos -- an once of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I never want to have to sue a tenant again.
It's a lot easier said than done "screening the applicants" -- the first time you meet someone, they could drive a BMW, have good credit, have a nice education, and a respectable job, seemingly have well-behaved kids... but you never know what they're going to be like. You get references from past landlords... you never know if it's a real person or if it's just someone keen on getting rid of them... It's all just luck. By far the worst tenant I had was the first one (and I found them because they were friends with one of my neighbors who I trusted).
There are many less stressful ways to make a buck... but sure, if you can get the right tenant... it should in theory be passive income. Good luck!
As an Indian who has lived in 7 apartment/homes in the US, I have yet to see a place which good ventilation in the kitchen. Usually the fan (if any) in the kitchen just circulates the air inside, which serves only to spread the smell. If I am lucky to have a window near the kitchen, I keep it open with fan near it as makeshift exhaust.
Houses in india have exhaust fans/ chimneys (electric or otherwise) that take the air in the kitchen and dumps it outside the house, which I believe is the only way to handle smells from indian cooking.
I remember those shitty fans from my days living in an apartment. They just shot the air back out into the house. Yeah... those suck. Totally agree!
I think the open concept layouts of many homes in the US aren't great for pungent cooking. The house also has a circulating air system, so every thing you cook goes into every room and closet.
The stove in my rental house has an exhaust hood, and it vents outside. Any idea what a proper cubic feet per minute rating I should look for?
I really hope more people read this. It echos a lot of my own experience and I"m sick and tired of being classified as a "rent seeking" evil capitalist just for providing the service of renting out a property I own.
The writing on this _Popular Mechanics_ article/memoir is superb, filled with rich detail and expository flourish.
For example, this passage succinctly and adroitly presents the landlord's peculiar fate.
> For a landlord, all stories end on a broken aquarium. Or
> maggots in the unplugged refrigerator. That double-pane
> window that "fell out" during some Halloween party. The
> climax of a story belongs to the tenant. The denouement is
> the landlord's burden alone. And it generally involves a mop.
Been a landlord for about 13 years. People here say it's hard - I disagree - it's often very easy, until suddenly it's not at breakneck speed. You'll have weeks, sometimes months of easy and then suddenly a pipe will burst and it will consume 100% of your time. Or a furnace will fail. Or a dishwasher will explode.
You could probably figure that out on your own, though. If you still have interest in being landlord, here's something nobody will tell you: you will see people at their lowest, and you will see people at their worst.
I had a tenant argue with me over a door they kicked in from the inside, "Why should I have to pay for what I did when I was drunk!?" I had a tenant weep openly while she explained she had to break the lease because she had terminal cancer and was moving into hospice. I had a tenant cry while he explained that he lost his job and had to break the lease because he couldn't afford to house his family there anymore. A few months ago I had a very nice family move out of one of my rentals and the young wife teared up because she "hoped that one day they could buy the property from me." - The husband worked for a large corporation and had been unwillingly transferred out of state.
The nice family with perfect credit and references will turn out to be dirt-bags who wreck up the place. Sure, you've got that security deposit but you'll still spend hours doing the labor yourself or managing contractors.
My best tenants were a group of college kids who rented my biggest property out and left a year later with the place in better condition than when they moved in - they had no credit or references, but I had a good feeling about them.
The point is, is weighs you down, if you're a even a little bit kind-hearted. I started selling property off last year. I don't want to be a landlord anymore.
That's a complicated question. If you're just looking to improve your monthly bottom line, rentals is probably not your best bet. I purchased distressed property in a growth market, buying up places I knew I could go into on weekends and fix up myself. After fixing them up and renting them out, I'd average between $200-$300 a month in profit (per property, after accounting for mortgage, taxes, and property maintenance.)
If you work in IT (like I do), that's not exactly life-changing money, and as a function of time-in vs profit out, you'd probably be better off just doing some contract on the side.. at least, in the short term. In the long term, after holding on to a bunch of properties for 13 years, having other people pay my mortgages plus market appreciation, I've generated a ton of equity. Now that I'm cashing out, if you consider my time and my initial investment, I'm doing a great deal better than market.
Had I have had the stomach to stay in and pay off those mortgages, I'd probably be doing even better. The price of my sanity, I guess.
Some random advice to you or anyone else: it's not as easy as you think.
The housing boom over the past 20 years makes everyone belive that real estate is the path to easy wealth. But being a landlord takes work and offers a market return. There is no magic. Those people who tell you "I just collect the rent" haven't been doing it long enough.
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
Yes, being a landlord isn't "easy money" but if you're willing to work a little you can make a lot of money slowly.
I've never seen someone loose their ass on a rental property, I'm sure it happens but you'd have to ignore the fundamentals. You can download plenty of spreadsheets online that will calculate whether a property cash flows or not before you even call the real estate agent. You insure everything, and put the cheapest everything into fixes.
Source: I grew up fixing and painting my dads houses in between renters.
Or they turn over a good portion of that rent to a third party to do the actual maintenance and management of the properties (a big business in and of itself).
If you are thinking of using a management company, know that they have it pretty well figured out. Their fees will take almost all of your rental income after mortgage and taxes and insurance. So you'll end up with property that the tenants paid for (no small thing) but no real cash flow.
Besides that there is a high level of fraud in small-time property management. Crooked managers have kickback arrangements with their preferred vendors for landscaping, appliance repair, painting, etc. The property owner pays full retail price for the work and then the manager gets cash back under the table. Many managers are 100% honest but it's difficult to know whom to trust and there's no way to really be sure.
Hah, know what's even better than that, when the PM company outright owns (or their owner owns) a whole arm of companies like that, AND has "exclusivity arrangements" with those.
I use one now, 80 bucks a month. I only used one because I was a brand new landlord and wanted training wheels.
Turns out all I need them for is a rent-collector broker. I interface directly with my tenants to address all issues. While I still make a small profit even after the $80 fee, I think whenever these tenants decide to leave, I may strike out on my own, maybe make a little more money.
That's not what most folks use them for. If you use them for maintenance and generally fielding complaints they get expensive quick.
You are in the very extreme minority of people able and willing to perform maintenance and repair work yourself. We're a dying breed it seems. For most it's simply not a realistic option, due to the lack of "real world" experience/skills most in the position to buy an investment property are in.
This is why it's generally considered a poor investment choice for most people just looking to put money somewhere.
If you are willing to roll your sleeves up and have some handyman skills? You'll certainly enhance the return on your own capital that way. I see such businesses (and they are businesses - not remotely passive) as a means to ensure your money is working for you, which feels much more satisfying and honest to me than just stuffing it into some ETF somewhere.
It's not just skills, though, it's also the time it takes. Like all side businesses, it'll consume quite a bit of your "free" time until you can live off it and quit your job. Many people aren't interested in getting a second job, they just don't realize that's what they're doing.
I agree, I wouldn't be very pleased with the current state of affairs if I didn't enjoy being a handyman. Heh for instance, the day before my first tenants moved in, a pipe burst. I always assumed pipe welding and drywall patching was hard, but not so much. A tree fell in my yard and thru my fence, twice. Bought a chainsaw, grabbed a hammer and nails, trees are cleaned up, fence looks fantastic. Tenants have let the oil run out twice, learned how to prime an oil line. Closet doors are jacked up, learning how to do some carpentry.
Fortunately I lucked out with tenants. I am a working single parent and I live an hour away from my property. I'd really like this to work out in the long run, but so far what I've learned more than anything else is, you can't beat having excellent tenants.
Never do this remotely. Far off management companies for far away properties will take you to the cleaners. Only buy and rent local properties. Ignore your friends and coworkers talking about the screaming deals they are getting in the desert properties. Stay local and you'll do OK.
It's OK to use a management company to find a tenant, show the place, run credit, Etc. Don't use them after that though.
About ten years ago, I read a news article about a management firm in Auckland, New Zealand, who collected rent, conducted monthly inspections, and had found the greatest tenant.
SO, when the tenant moved out and the landlord decided to inspect the place himself, he was surprised to find a large amount of damage and a badly overgrown yard. It seems that the management firm had collected the rent (through automatic weekly debit), taken their percentage, and done nothing else.
I'm afraid it was so long ago that I don't remember anything specific.
It's usually much more subtle than that. Repair bills for this and that on a regular basis. Then a big ticket item like new fridge or plumbing repair. Later you'll find that the fridge wasn't actually replaced, the plumber is the manager's brother, and that the property management company goes out of business and resurfaces with a new name every 5-6 years.
For property management? That's what I'm paying; they handle everything, including hiring subcontractors for maintenance and repairs. Works out well, if they're good about picking renters.
My parents were landlords when I was growing up and I thought about getting into it myself. When I was looking into it I think 8% was the ballpark ROI most landlords were shooting for. Remembering back to what my parents went through my thoughts were Meh, I can find other ways to put my money and myself to work.
If you get a background check of everyone in the neighborhood
> no one else is trading your house while you had it
My share is my share- what other people do with their shares has an impact on mine- kinda like what your neighbors do with their property has an impact on the value of yours.
This article is from February. Some process possibly involving random inputs, led to OP posting this article today. Yet, I've observed a lifetime of such randomness as anything but random in my little perception of the universe.
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I watched my father be the kind of land lord anyone would hope to have just to watch some people destroy his property and treat him with hostility.
Now I know why your landlord treats you like he expects the worst from you.
I hired people for work they cared about (non profit), treated them well, the earned prestige and leadership experience they couldn't have had in their previous jobs just to watch them turn on me and spread lies and toxicity and try to destroy the organization because I praised someone else's work too.
Now I know why companies treat people like they expect the worst from them.
I worked at a Taco Bell and Starbucks. People yelled at us and treated us like scum for the offense of working for minimum wage.
Apparently people who make more than minimum wage automatically have more intrinsic human value? I'll never know. But I know I'll excuse a lot with retail and food workers because my life is roughly 30x times better than theirs.