Is good service and hospitably an antiquated notion?
I'll happily give a bartender, server or a driver an extra buck or two when they make the experience pleasant/informative/friendly because, far too many people treat their jobs not as a privileged but a chore.
Without tipping far too many would take your money for granted and the quality of service would decline across the board because there is zero incentive to provide anything better.
> Without tipping far too many would take your money for granted and the quality of service would decline across the board because there is zero incentive to provide anything better.
I don't mean to sound flippant but, have you ever been to Europe? I've traveled to Germany, Ireland, Finland, and Iceland multiple times. None of those countries has a tipping culture and the service I receive, even at your basic fast food restaurant, is the same or better than in the States.
I must ask, why do you believe your statement to be true?
Possibly a cultural affect though? His statement could be true for the american context.
In a capitalism steeped melting pot, it does seem like things that might be more commonly 'seen'/appreciated in other cultures - pride in one's work, common standards of politeness, sense of serving/interacting with 'your community' rather than just 'anonymous strangers from other communities' - that could be non-financial motivators for good service elsewhere that are simply missing or too few & far between here.
In Germany a 5-10% tip is customary in (non-self-serve) restaurants and bars. I usually tip taxi drivers about the same percentage, not sure if everyone does it.
Sadly, tip amount is not correlated very strongly with good service. No matter how good of service a person provides, they aren't going to change how much they are tipped very much. Since this is the case, it is unlikely quality of service is going to go way down because of no tips.
Do you believe that in Australia and Europe, restaurants and taxis are non functional because they don't have tipping?
I've eaten out hundreds of times in my life, never left a tip, and never thought I needed an incentive system directly between me and the waiter. Same with taxis.
There are only so many ways to screw up bringing food to a table. I've never once though "wow that waiter really brought my plate to me badly".
Why not apply your logic to everything? Why not change hairdressing to a tip system? Why not surgery? Why not painting and building? You'll get better service, right?
Hairdressers, massage places (the fancy ones (e.g. resort spas) give you an envelope which explains tipping for foreign travelers), sometimes auto mechanics, maître d's (fancy restaurants get expensive when you have to tip the person who sat you, the waiter, the chef, and the sommelier), valets, parking garages where they park your car since it's so tight that all the cars are in a grid (common in e.g. SF), bell persons, hotel rooms (customary to leave some cash on the dresser, again fancier places usually have an envelope explaining it), pit bosses at casinos (you're buying favor), baggage handlers at the airport, gardeners / pool cleaners, repair persons in some cases...
Yeah, it's crazy and dumb and not changing drastically any time soon.
Fast food, cafeteria staff, receptionist, fast casual (Chipotle-like places), coffee shop (this is debatable), tech support, cable repair person, salesman, public bus driver, any cashier, bagger, phone support, librarian.
It's so arbitrary though, order a Pepsi from McDonald's no tip, order a Pepsi from a pub, $1 tip minimum. Tip the person who hands you a bottle of beer but not the person who makes your sandwich.
(Self serve soda machines are common now in fast food, but when I worked at McDonald's we poured the soda, no machines, and no tips)
Though I usually do tip at fast food or fast casual (if there's a tip jar or a spot on the CC receipt), and always tip at a coffee shop.
But the others, yeah... spot on.
The beverage pouring thing is especially insane; I'd never thought about that before. At a bar I'll usually tip 20% for a cocktail, but only 10% or so if I'm poured a beer or soft drink. But even that 10% is crazy when you wouldn't tip a fast-food cashier for pouring you a soda.
"It's so arbitrary though, order a Pepsi from McDonald's no tip, order a Pepsi from a pub, $1 tip minimum. Tip the person who hands you a bottle of beer but not the person who makes your sandwich."
As an outsider, it's all quite insane especially when the baseline isn't 0% but more like 15% for default service in many situations. Or a $1 tip for something ridiculously basic at a bar like getting post-mix soda or uncapping a bottle of beer as you said.
Especially a bodega/deli sandwich maker. Making a sandwich is just as labor intensive as making a cocktail. I load up my sandwiches with at least 10 ingredients (lettuce, tomato, onions, spinach, peppers, banana peppers, olives, salt, pepper, mayo,... Whatever they have!) and the average cocktail has, like, 3-4 ingredients? And it's certainly more labor intensive than carrying a plate.
View on Europe on HN seems to be a little skewed. We have tipping here as well, maybe not to the same extent as in US, but it's definitely present. Even sandwich or coffee places would have "tip jar" where people would drop their change when they pay cash, but it's not required or even expected. It's not like there is no concept of tipping at all.
Sure, but that's still drastically different than in the US. With little exception, you're expected to pay an 18-20% tip just for the base level of service. Paying less than 15% -- even for mediocre or poor service -- is considered cheap and shameful.
To compare apples to apples, in a sandwich/coffee place in the US you're still expected to tip the standard amount, even if your change from a cash payment falls short. And not tipping at all in those situations is considered bad form.
I'd say the European system is far preferable, but I like Japan the best: a taxi driver would be nearly offended if you tried to tip them. I had one get out of the car and nearly chase me down because I got out before taking my 30 yen in change.
Just charge what it costs to provide a living wage and don't require or expect a tip, ever. Remove the social stigma associated with being cheap for not tipping. In the US, eliminate the comically-low minimum wage for tipped staff, and make them pay the regular minimum wage. To ease the transition, reduce payroll taxes for such businesses (tips aren't subject to payroll taxes) so they don't have to jack up prices 30+% to compensate. I know this will never happen here, but I can hope...
I get what you're saying, but there is a huge difference between maybe leaving a couple Euro on the table if you happen to feel like it, vs being made to feel like a piece of shit because you didn't tip the expected $10 on your $60 dinner or taxi ride.
In Germany at least, it is common to round up. Probably because we like paying with cash, since it's just less of a hassle if the price is odd. Round up to the next full Euro, or the next 5/10€ if it's close/you're feeling generous/don't like coins.
AFAIK this is a common mode for the other European countries as well.
In some cases, that makes sense, or at least, enough sense that I can see "reasonable people disagree..." there.
In other cases, I just want a ride home. I don't care about being regaled with tales, or how hyperoptimized the route is, or fake friendliness, or even refreshments. I just want to know, unambiguously, what it takes to satisfy my obligation for this specific service, and reasonably expect that the provider is on the same page.
Uber wanted to create a special zone for exactly this, and make expectations as clear as possible for everyone going in, and yet that still isn't good enough for many people.
(Though, FWIW, I think they also abused their position by driving rates insanely low.)
Yeah, and that's the thing. I think Uber started off with a great idea: eliminate tipping for a job where tipping is the norm. But then they failed to fix the reason for tipping these days: paying the usually-tipped person a living wage.
> Is good service and hospitably an antiquated notion?
No, good service and hospitality are literally what your base wage should cover.
If your service job doesn't pay well enough to for you to provide good service and/or be a decent human being, perhaps you should seek out a less service-oriented job.
