It's sad that people tend to think of life as some kind of DnD character creation, where people have the same points but allocated in different ways.
Instead, some people just have more points than you, and just because they have more points in charisma, doesn't mean they also don't have more points than you in intellect.
I've heard, even on this site, people deride management and C-suite types as "dumb" or "the popular kids", and in the same breath worship "that guy in the room"[0] but the stark reality is quite different from this fantasy.
I'd go even further than that. They're not independent variables, but instead are highly correlated. High achievement in one area means you're more than likely to be above average in another.
This. The article (which admittedly stopped reading about 40% in) falls in the trap of condescension because it assumes anyone who isn't a nerd is also not smart.
> (FTA) Why don't smart kids make themselves popular? If they're so smart, why don't they figure out how popularity works and beat the system, just as they do for standardized tests?
They do. The real problem is that intelligence is hard to see or appreciate when looking upwards. That's why it's not valued, and that's why the author doesn't recognize the people that are intelligent on other planes than he is.
"This. The article (which admittedly stopped reading about 40% in) falls in the trap of condescension because it assumes anyone who isn't a nerd is also not smart."
I'm not sure that's the intended interpretation. What I do know is there seems to be a dampening effect on people in group situations where you shut up, fit in and assume group norms. Fit in, don't stand out, don't act smart as you are. Take a look at this follow-up article as well. [0]
Here's one idea that isn't shown that you might not immediately recognise. Look at this shot. [1] There is a big difference b/w the sneering pg and the pg that dealt with VC's other founders, customers in his viaweb days.
Not the same pg you see when ycombinator started. Why?
"If you want to learn what people want, read Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. When a friend recommended this book, I couldn't believe he was serious. But he insisted it was good, so I read it, and he was right. It deals with the most difficult problem in human experience: how to see things from other people's point of view, instead of thinking only of yourself."
Hidden away in "Why Smart People Have Bad Ideas" is the above gem and the answer to your "trap of condescension". I don't think the idea is, not Nerd, not smart. I think it's more, not Nerd, don't care what peers think and do what really matters, instead of what appears to matter.
This is a favourite essay of mine.
Similar dynamics occurred in my school around the same time, though for myself, a Mathlete, I did't have the same problem with tough guys. A criticism I would make of the essay is what about the female Nerds? How did they go? Of the group of people I went to HS with, of those who are female, I count 5 Phd/MDs between them.
> I think it's more, not Nerd, don't care what peers think and do what really matters, instead of what appears to matter.
Hmm, no this shows the same kind of condescension (which I totally agree isn't intended) as in the article, characterized by the quote While the nerds were being trained to get the right answers, the popular kids were being trained to please.
Do you think teenage nerds do what they do because they think it's the thing that really matters?
Or perhaps just because it satisfies their urges? Is there much difference from the motivation of those who work to become popular? For me the only difference is the particular urge: For nerds it's maybe curiosity and intellectual stimulation, for others it may instead be social acceptance/validation, wanting to be influential, perfectionism in craft or sport, etc. The fact that curiosity doesn't breed social aptitude is coincidental.
> .. the answer to your "trap of condescension"
I admit I didn't fully follow you here. Although I'm not a fan of Carnegie, I agree the ability to see other's point of view is important, and think that it comes late to must people. Often long after the insecurity of teenage fades away. But it's not a very difficult problem, let alone the most.
For someone to be so condescending and arrogant, how does a person convince others to work with them, invest with them, buy their online service and ultimately sell the company? The ^be nice to influence people filter^ is turned off for writing.
This means in writing pg says what he wants (a sign of original ideas and though) without the filters of what ^others^ think.
Ah, thanks. Perhaps I misused the word "condescending" then. Maybe I meant "patronizing"? English isn't my strong hand. I didn't mean he wasn't being as nice as he should (I agree with you that turning off that filter makes a clearer message).
What I meant is that I think he's wrong, in particular the assumption about non-nerds and their intelligence. It's his limitation not to see that intelligence can be applied to different goal functions than his, not theirs.
"What I meant is that I think he's wrong, in particular the assumption about non-nerds and their intelligence."
Totally agree here. Remember the title is "Why Nerds Are Unpopular" and patronising, condescending is an apt description if you look at it from point of view. If you studied the brain of a nerd as described in this article, I'd characterise the nerd brain in the following way. A brain is high in acetylcholine (high level of focused learning), lower in serotonin (lower level of socialisation and dominance) and possibly higher levels of dopamine (reward learning system) for learning abstract things as opposed to a stylised non-nerd.
If you look at this neural level, I'd imagine nerd brains are highly geared to chasing focused learning of technical subjects at the expense of people.
Yeah. As much as the typical 'cliche' seems to be a divide between the popular moron jock and the unpopular nerd, the truth is simply that's there's no correlation between popularity and intelligence one way or the other.
Some people may be unpopular but smart or popular but dumb, but there's just as many unpopular idiots and popular geniuses.
Yep. Plenty of folks much more popular than me in school were also fairly smart. As has been mentioned, a lot of it had more to do with social skills but also with "luck of the draw" type things like being more attractive, being more athletic (which often went along with being more attractive), and having parents with more money to buy them fashionable clothes, and better toys (actual toys at a younger age, stuff like cars when older).
Who knows? Maybe a lot of their confidence and social skills were a result of those physical and material advantages. I can imagine that I might have been a more confident and outgoing teen/adult if I'd spent my life as a good-looking kid who wore the latest kid-fashion, was good at sports, and had things other kids wanted to play with. Instead I was scrawny with thick glasses, hand-me-down clothes, a lack of strength and coordination, and very few cool "things". So it didn't matter how smart I was when kids brushed me off as a "nerd" and talked shit instead of wanting to hang out. Either way I was gonna end up socially uncomfortable.
But that's just me and not the same for anyone else per se. And it leads to the fact that it's made me an adult who understands how big an impact the "hand you're dealt" has on the outcome of your life. I think it's helped me to develop a good sense of empathy and I've always tried to put myself in other people's shoes when I have a disagreement or conflict. So much of who we are is shaped by things out of our control and there's a certain strength and clarity that comes from recognizing this and accepting that you can't change some things but you can work toward others.
I thought 21 Jump Street hit the nail on the head w.r.t. (modern?) high schools, a lot of the most popular kids in that movie were also the smart, "nerdy" types. Could be a regional thing though, who knows.
Sure sure. The smartest kid at my high school was also one of the funniest people I've known; he didn't hang out with the "popular" cliques or anything, but everyone knew and liked him. You can be a nerd and not horribly awkward.
IMO social skills aren't really skills that are learned, they are personality traits. Intelligence is also a personality trait. If you have personality traits that cause social problems then you will have to work on controlling those traits, that itself is a skill. Some people are born will personality traits that make them more likable. People also tend to like people who are like themselves.
They just had social skills as well.
It's much easier to tell yourself that other people don't like you because you are smarter than them than it is to work on yourself.