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> I wouldn't say I was a 303/808 connoisseur

I would, I own a real TB-303 (as well as a TR-808 and a TR-909), and this suffers from the same problems that all emulations suffer (even Roland's own TR-3 and TR-03): the sound is really 'static'; real 303s have an instability in the sound that gives them a nice natural vibrato, which at the extremes (resonance full, and sweeping the cut-off), causes mini-ripples of sound that give the 303 that sound.

Have a listen to this to see what I mean (try to avoid the Roland shills with their "it's just as good" opinion) [1]

It's pretty much the same with all emulations of analogue gear. I am yet to hear any plugin or emulation come close to the sound of analogue. The closest I've experienced to-date Uhe Diva, but even that doesn't have the liveliness of the real deal.

[1] https://youtu.be/4lhXeTGMo2c?t=796




You're right, but that doesn't make this any less awesome :)

To me, it's a demo of what's capable with the Web Audio API. It's _amazing_, because with a URL you can share a drum machine equal to any of the other emulators you'd need to buy (or, at least, download).


> I am yet to hear any plugin or emulation come close to the sound of analogue.

Check this, it's a Moog Minimoog Model D recration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIPu2Su-V9Q

insanely close to the original, I've played with the demo.


It's good for sure, listen to the last sliding notes on the funk riff, the analog is much more characteristic, the smooth gradient is perceptible, it's the interaction of analog harmonics, as another post mentioned it's often at the extremes that the most interesting sounds emerge, these I imagine are areas where interesting sonic dynamics will occur. All music making stuff is cool, from gong to modular analog through string box bass and digital tricks, we are lucky to have such tools to hand, the original 303 cost a lot, they still do...


I agree. It's the instabilities and nonlinearities in analog audio that give it character.

Now whether that's worth emulating, or even noticeable by most people, I'm not sure. But I'm buying all analog, and mostly VCO synths


> or even noticeable by most people,

I think it is, but on quite a subliminal level. As well as producing music I also DJ, and I notice a marked increase in energy levels of people on a dancefloor when I play tracks that I know are made with analogue synths and drum machines.

Two weeks ago I was playing at a club in London and played Donnato Dozzy - Gol [1], it's so simple as a track, almost nothing to it, but it's a real 303 and 808 that drives the track. I had tons of people asking me what it was, and I could see the room had got more energetic. I even had this conversation about it after the night.

So even for those that don't know exactly why, I think they do feel. I've seen it happen lots of times.

> But I'm buying all analog, and mostly VCO synths

It's still there with DCOs in my opinion. They're cleaner for sure, but they still have that sound. My Juno 106 is one hell of a synth, and that's DCOs, as is my Waldorf Pulse 2 (which for almost no money is a great sounding machine), but then I have the VCOs: Moog Sub 37, Roland TB-303, Roland SH-101, and the incredible DSI OB-6. They're all amazing sound. Especially compared to my digital synths (Nord Lead A1, Roland Super JV 1080). I've stopped using plugins completely now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZzZ1jdvIyM


>I notice a marked increase in energy levels of people on a dancefloor when I play tracks that I know are made with analogue synths and drum machines.

I'm sorry, but I cannot just let you get away with that. There are so, so many other factors that would "energise" people on a dance-floor than simply whether the source of one or two elements in the track playing are voltage or digital based.

While analogue stuff does sound better (in my opinion), this, along with the inherent confirmation bias of such an observation, is utter make-believe.


> I'm sorry, but I cannot just let you get away with that. There are so, so many other factors that would "energise" people on a dance-floor than simply whether the source of one or two elements in the track playing are voltage or digital based.

I've been DJing in nightclubs for 20 years. Please take my word for it that I know what I'm talking about here. This isn't a one-off.


Well I'm also musician and DJ with about 20 years producing, and 15 years experience performing. I think if you were playing super-minimal, atonal techno or house then for sure - but for genres involving more elements and instrumentation, I just don't see it.


Nice track (Gol). I agree, in a stripped down setting the characteristics are more exposed, and digital synths can get boring quick.

DCO - I like them too, I just have enough of them already (MKS-70, MKS-50, JX-3P, Cheetah MS6). Might pick up the new Behringer 12 poly DCO if it's good, but that'll be enough DCO for me. Still plenty of room for VCO synths though, I've got 6-7 VCO mono synths but they are all small or racked and sound very different :)


Behringer's name is mud in audio circles. You sure you want to go there?


I'm not really a brand snob - whatever sounds good. They got a bad name for ripping off circuit designs, but there is some Behringer gear that does the job. The deepmind 12 is designed by ex-Midas/Klark Teknik engineers (Behringer bought them) and Uli has been wanting to release an analog synth for ages - I think it'll be alright, will reserve judgement.

It'll probably sound too clean and will end up buying vintage VCO synths instead though :)


Sounds more interesting for sure (I have a Midas Venice F32, and a lot of respect for the Midas engineers). My comment was mostly about Behringer's poor build quality (reputation).

Maybe just get a Jupiter 8, it'll save the hassle ;)


J8 - one day :)

For now I've been using this nifty app to join together multiple monophonic VCO synths to make a polyphonic VCO synth - http://polymer-app.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oMAxqrl6xs


That's pretty cool!


Ooh, where did you play? Love that track, will have to try and catch you play sometime if you play that sort of thing :)


> Ooh, where did you play?

It's a new venue in Dalston called Club Makossa for the Dr Blacks night; near Dalston Superstore and the now defunct Dance Tunnel.

> will have to try and catch you play sometime if you play that sort of thing

I play a range of stuff, but yeah that's fairly typical for when I play out. I don't know when I'll be playing in London again, but will probs be back playing for Dr Blacks again in february.

I have some stuff on my Soundcloud page that might be of interest:

The last time I played at Fabric they asked me to do a mix for their blog to promo it. This starts off quite housey, but ends up in a similar area to the Donatto Dozzy sound: https://soundcloud.com/paullouth/paul-louth-fabric-mix-march...

A bit tougher, this is a live one from a festival in Austria : https://soundcloud.com/paullouth/paul-louth-live-at-sonnenpa...

On a more techno level, check out me and my friend DJing back-to-back for 4 hours as 'Waterwalk' in Berlin. There's a number of Donnato Dozzy tracks on there, and Peter Van Hoesen - who I consider to be quite similar as a producer (if a bit tougher): https://soundcloud.com/water-walk/waterwalk-live-from-staub-...

This is quite deep dubby techno, a personal favourite: https://soundcloud.com/paullouth/paul-louth-lux

This is a live show on Ministry of Sound radio. A bit more melodic: https://soundcloud.com/paullouth/paul-louth-live-on-ministry...

There's lots of other mixes on there, but those should be roughly in the right area if you like the Gol track.


Won't let me reply to you directly, but cool! I shall keep an eye out as I live round that neck of the woods - hadn't even heard of that venue. I'll give your mixes a listen tomorrow, cheers – recognised your name from the 4Four site I used to go on occasionally :)


Heh, yeah I still run 4four - although you'll be lucky to log into it now, it was killed by the march of various sites (Facebook, Soundcloud, RA), to the point that it went from 10,000 unique visitors per day to 100s. I'd like to resurrect it at some point, but it'd need a better value-proposition.


Curious if you'd notice similar from circuit emulator synths like Diva: https://www.u-he.com/cms/diva


Where can I find information on simulating circuits -- the underlying algorithms and models? Does it take in account factors like temperature (I hope so)?


Here's a good place to start - the blog of Urs, the guy who made Diva.

https://urs.silvrback.com/

Andy Cytomic is also doing good work on analogue filter modeling

https://cytomic.com/index.php?q=technical-papers


This isn't analogue modelling though -- you're just using KVL/KCL to derive the transfer function H(w) and applying the same transfer function as a digital filter.

It's literally the first thing I would do if I wanted to come up with something that sounded the least bit like the real thing.

I was using my own FIR derivation of a third-order low-pass Butterworth filter to do software synthesis in 2008 while I was in high school. This is truly basic stuff.

Real analogue modelling has things like noise, hysteresis, and a dependence on such broad factors as temperature and even EM fields.


I guess I should have done my own digging. THIS (and really anything Spice does) is REAL analog modelling:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f03a/310c40a48be62206ce5ff1...


The Diva is good, but doesn't sound like an analogue synth.


IANAM, but would it be so hard to just mix in a minuscule amount of perlin noise here and there?


Roland's reissues are pretty dull and lifeless compared to the real thing. The x0xb0x and possibly the TT-303 are the only two 303 clones I've heard that get close, probably due to the fact they're close copies of the original's analog circuitry. But even they don't quite get there. That's why the 303 still commands such a high price, even after Roland's ACB reissues.

The 909 and 808 are a lot easier to clone.


I thought x0xb0x did a single blind test and they were indistinguishable?

http://www.ladyada.net/make/x0xb0x/samples.html


They're also impossible to keep in tune, sound wildly different with small changes in temperature, and have a really terrible signal to noise ratio.


DCO synths don't have tuning problems, modern VCO synths (like the OB-6) have built-in tuning circuits. Even on the older gear that needs manual tuning (like my SH-101), it doesn't take too long to tune. If a synth is drifting wildly, then it's more likely to be a fault/time for reconditioning.

In terms of signal-to-noise, well yeah they're all noisy, but not terribly if you do your gain staging properly, and gate anything that's excessively noisy.

Actually the noise is part of the character of the imperfection. Look at emulations of classic gear, and they're all digitally putting the noise back in.


TB03 is the closest I've seen that sounds most like the original, but yeah, not the same.

I bought a Moog Mother 32 instead :) Can't beat the real analog deal. Everything on it sounds amazing!




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