Okay folk. I understand HN crowd (and apparently the Indian subset too) don't like hearing ill of the British empire. I concede that everything was/is well and that English is the only "rational" choice for every affair in India. Naipaul was right after all; I didn't think this nostalgia was this great, though.
The spiritual center of my culture is apparently long dead; I don't really care about what they do over there anymore.
You seem really confused. India uses English because we have 28 official languages. English is seen as neutral. Indians nor most other Asians have any love for the British. Rejecting English does not repair the damage they did. And attaching nationalism to the rejection of English is just childish.
And if you wanted to bring up this up, I don't see why you had to use Marc Andressen to bring it up. And asking for votes after mis understanding and then mis representing people's points is not going to get you any up votes.
Either offer a rational counter argument, or concede that your comments were poorly thought through. Hiding behind Naipaul's comments does not further the argument in anyway.
No one here is arguing that English is the ONLY rational choice, nor is it in reality. India has 18 official languages. English is just one of them.
Okay. I can't spend so much time explaining the virtues of "freedom". I also can't spend time trying to reason with "rational" people who like all the post-modernists basically believe in narratives, and not truth (philosophically speaking).
- My contention is not about speaking English, "rational" people (I speak English!). It is about how economically dominant a language is; in East Asia/Europe getting a good job without knowing the local language is extraordinarily difficult. Speaking English (without other awesome skills) often lands one a position teaching high schoolers.
- This power/economic structure is inverted in formerly colonized African nations as noted by the Kenyan writer Ngũgĩ wa Thiong'o. He was kicked out for raising such questions (so much for Kenyan Independence).
- It's very apparent that this is the case in India too.
Why?
- It doesn't look like one can get a Tech job at ISRO (imaginably also Flipkart) having a Engineering degree in one of the native languages. What appears to be Hindi is barely to be found on the menus on its front page.
A "lingua franca" is one to which everyone makes a translation from the original, for the world to read. It appears that the original itself is in English, here!
- This being the case, I'm not even sure if you can get a degree in anything useful in any of the native languages.
- There seems to be lots of chatter in the search results on an as yet unnamed invisible hand disenfranchising people linguistically (people are taught in English ??!).
- According to Wiki, only 10% of India speaks English.
This is the classic workings of a feudal - ironically a pre-enlightenment - state, if not one practicing outright apartheid.
It's almost as if India stepped into medieval Europe's shoes where the rich sent their kids to Latin grammar schools; or Tsarist Russia where French was the langue de l'élite (atleast Tolstoy wrote in Russian as noted by the NyT article!).
If you want to invalidate my understanding, either show one of the above to false, or show why it's alright by making statements about their benignity (vis a vis a linguistically diverse EU, for instance). Otherwise, please spare me the downvotes and the verbiage.
I don't think such political HN threads help anyone (although, they do reveal colors).
Local language is required for government jobs (IAS, engineering in PSU etc.). In engineering companies such as Flipkart, inMobi etc. you will end up speaking local languages when you form your friend circle and if your team speaks a common language. Even if the job doesn't ask for it, you're going to have a tough time fitting in if you don't speak the common language (Hindi, Tamil, Kannada etc).
And be logical, English will always be needed. Which company in the world would be able to deal with 28 official languages internally? Also, there are start-ups moving to address the local market (e-commerce in Tamil, Hindi etc.
All of what you've said btw is mere opinion. None of what you say us objective fact. Speaking the language of your former colonizer doesn't mean the people lack self-respect nor does it have anything to do with any of the "virtues of freedom" as you've pointed out.
Uhh. I wish you could atleast understand this lingua franca you constantly speak of (see disclaimer above). If not please don't bring this moralizing non-sense. Narratives don't make for either logic or reason.
I'm not even sure you understand philosophy or the epistemological meanings of the words you are so desperate to bolster these stupid narratives.
See, the thing is, you don't invalidate any of what I said.
- 90% of India's population does not speak English. This is not "mere opinion".
- EU uses 24 official languages; companies work in the language of the state. East-Asian companies work and do engineering in their respective languages. Unless you claim Indian languages are somehow intrinsically "useless", your narrative is full of BS.
- It's not about "speaking" as was mentioned earlier. It was obvious I was talking about technical/commercial usage. I'm glad it's required in the Govt; it appears this is only the case for low-level jobs. It looks like the country's laws etc. (apparently even the courts ?) function in English. Countries in East-Asia do engineering/business etc. in their own respective languages, some borrowing terms from English, and others (like CN) going out of their way to avoid them.
I don't mean language usage in the Kitchen; I'm not even sure how this can be "economically useful".
- You invalidate nothing written in the NyT article.
Your "argument" is essentially one saying, "ah it's too much work to keep our own identities, so let's just adopt one of the old colonizer". What a pathetic country, and what a fall.
Noam Chomsky notes somewhere the corruption these idiots in post-modernism have on the third world, where intellectuals are desperately needed. I can see what he meant.
You haven't answered my question, which is which company/country deals with 28 languages ? The EU isn't a country. Maybe you don't understand English.
And which company works in multiple languages within it's own home country?
Your wiki source relies on 2001 data (and only considers English speakers [0] and you used as logic that 90% of India doesn't speak English, so it is in fact, mere opinion - yours). When counting both users and speakers, the value was 350M which is ~30% of the population.
It is about speaking. On a single team does it make sense that one does the docs in Hindi, and the non-Hindi speakers do what exactly with this doc? Or does he/she do one in each language? Will every college teach subjects in 28 different languages? Does any European university teach each subject in 28 languages? Do any of the countries in East Asia?
Your NYT article is an opinion piece, it's not admissible or inadmissible. If you're relying on opinion pieces, your logic is already flawed.
Most of what you say is a misrepresentation of facts.
[0]- "Wikipedia's old estimate of 350 million includes two categories – "English Speakers" and "English Users". The distinction between the Speakers and Users is that Users only know how to read English words while Speakers know how to read English, understand spoken English as well as form their own sentences to converse in English.
- some unqualified pedantry about the data being from 2001.
"Oh yeah, we used to oppress people for eons; they've adapted in the past decade."
- The number of fluent English speakers is apparently in the low single digits. Fairly obvious there is a nauseous class system in India, from the NyT article (speaking English gets you a good job ? What kind of society is that ? India is Anglo-Saxon ?).
- I don't think India is "country" in the same way as European states are. To be fair to Europe, Belgium today does work today with both Dutch and French. As a cohort of people, EU, is much closer to India, in terms of diversity etc (yes, I looked up the demographics).
- If you wish to use the epistemological grounding of a European, you're essentially vindicating my position: you have no understanding of the language/concepts you speak.
- Finally, I really don't want to continue this exercise in shallowness (even the narratives are so shallow!). Asking me to answer rhetorical questions hardly amounts to reason.
Good luck being a (medieval) WASP clone, and trampling on people's tongues (see, now, that is an interesting narrative).
You've answered nothing I've asked (350M speakers which is 30% of the pop, Belgium uses 2 languages and somehow India isn't a country) and then end with what is at best a racial insult. You're free to have your opinions, but I don't see the point in arguing with you. You clearly can't or won't read or nor argue coherently and hurl pathetic insults.
Nothing is manifest, things change, but what is the optimal strategy for the present ?
A question - how many east asian programmers write C/C++/Java programs in Korean, Japanese or Chinese ? And if they do, do they have resources such as stackoverflow and forums in their languages ? What about Spanish, German and French programmers ?
Another question - what percentage of a population in any country is engineers ? Is it closer to 90% or 10% in above countries ?
Your points about equal access to opportunity are valid, but the assumption that this is responsible for the GDP being low is not in my opinion - there more complex factors.
In any case since you are feel this is important (there are relatively few who do), please try to improve the situation in some way, rather than just complain. It is hard.
In the first link you sent, read a couple pages down and it explains why even half knowledge of english is critical to capture opportunities as they exist in the present.
I have no stake in the matter; it's fairly obvious I'm speaking to people of the parasitical colonial class (bourgeoisie ?).
Your argument is no different from that "rational" @kartD. It's fairly obvious, you don't even know the definition of a "language" is. If you needed an answer, a google search would have done you good ("yes"); asking me to answer rhetorical devices like "ah, but oppression is our only way towards progress!" is stupid. Somehow no Indian has the comprehension to understand why.
Considering the same thing repeated ad nauseum, I also sense strong doses of brainwashing, or the Indian state employing a 50-cent army like Mao's men. I hope for India's sake that it is the latter.
Well, since answer to the first question I asked is 0% and the second is less than 10%, your so called arguments stand on wafer thin ice, which explains the resort to name calling and 'fairly obvious' arguments.
Instead of worrying about India, I suggest you take care of your own (serious lack of) sanity. There is a hindi saying which comes to mind - adhajal gagri chhalakat jaaye - or, empty vessels make the most noise, which based on your "long dead spiritual center", applies to you.
Such linguistic dissonance that you even have your directions wrong ! What's next you'll claim freedom movements are far right ?! Wow such ability to live with lies. Astonishing.
I can only hope India goes through "clone wars" for humanity's sake.
There are plenty of government and other jobs which would be hard to get without knowing at least one local language. If you really want a job in technology, English would the least of the qualifications you'd need to be concerned about. With a solid background in math/science and demonstrated drive any required linguistic skills would be bridged for you.
The spiritual center of my culture is apparently long dead; I don't really care about what they do over there anymore.
Spare a poor soul some up votes.