What is the reason for having the age restriction of 30? Does it not implicitly contribute to the existing ageism issue in tech industry. Why can't a professional working in another industry learn something new at the age of 35 or a mother who wants to come back to the workforce after her kids start going to school?
I'm currently in the school in Paris and so thought I could help clarify. The main programme doesn't accept people above 30 but they do run a separate one which is tailored to those people - for example, it's not a given that they'll have to be here 24/7
It's easy to find examples of "protected class" filing discrimination lawsuits in cases of employment, housing, and retail (e.g. "ladies night pricing" ruling in favor of males.)
However, I can't think of an example of a "protected class" winning a court judgement over how a non-profit chooses to donate its money.
> However, I can't think of an example of a "protected class" winning a court judgement over how a non-profit chooses to donate its money.
Yes, in academia its pretty easy to find non-profits or government programs that sponsor exclusively certain groups based on age, sex, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation... pretty much any "protected class" that would get you in trouble if you were an employer.
Please note I'm not taking a stand on this one way or another. There are arguments on both sides.
I'm a student at Holberton School in SF and we use the same methodology - project based, peer-learning - and our student body is made up of people who range in age from 17 to over 50. I'm 43.
"I noticed in the past that we should not encourage too much age difference because it's harder then to form groups that work."
Shouldn't a startup founder be then allowed to reject any 30+ candidate with the same reasoning if their company already has a bunch of 25 year olds? Can't you detect the blatant age bias in this statement?
I can. It may be relevant to mention there must be a couple of cultural differences on this point. I think most people in France may have never heard about the word "ageism", from the moment they're not in some social justice circles. Employment discrimination is a public sphere topic but it is much more about immigrants and women. Also, the tech labor market in SF bay area may display way different variables compared to Paris (as may the educational system).
When it comes to providing a gift of free education via scholarships or unpaid teaching, it seems like the donor can attach any criteria he/she wants. E.g. A billionaire wants to provide scholarships to females aged 20 to 25 that can run a mile in less than 6 minutes. Even with those restrictive conditions set, it seems like the philanthropist is immune from lawsuits filed by males and handicapped people claiming discrimination.
3 years of study?? What!? That's insane, you do not need 3 years of study to enter this industry. At that point, I may as well go and get a Computer Science degree at a local college and at least have a legitimate degree.
This course is not a bootcamp. It is a substitute for an undergraduate degree and it is intended to give you a similar width and depth of knowledge (undergraduate degrees in Europe are three years). In France there are very few schools teaching computer science to a very high standard (Grade Ecoles teach engineering) and 42 has the ambition to educate the best computer scientists in France. Thumbing on the years makes that impossible.
You can go to community college; that is a legitimate choice; but 42 teaches you in a different way, one which 42 argues is more suitable for learning than classroom hours and lectures. And you miss out on some of that ambition.
Unless you are older then 30.. then it doesn't allow you to enter regardless of your background.
Most universities and almost every community college has acceptance for a wide range of backgrounds. You can enter my university on a GED at 31 if you like, doesn't seem possible here.
I'm sure that if they are looking for a change in career, taking some time off to make that change is not really a choice.
I'm 43, and enrolled at Holberton School, which is project based. Granted, I'm only taking 2 years off, but by the time the 9th month rolls around we will be interning in San Franciso (and possibly around the World). Some of those internships are paid.
Why did they move to such an expensive area? If their goal is to provide services and help everyone why not build your university in an area like Detroit?
No one who is really interested won't go because of the location and it makes rent really cheap.
Hell, you could also have the Detroit government chip in and give you a great deal on land. What is bad for an economy about bringing some of our nations smartest programmers to a single location?
If you want to go to teach people how to program, then going some place where most people already know how to program lowers your prospective client base.
If you go to some place that is currently economically unstable, you can have a huge client base as many people there will want to improve themselves.
That is something very much worth noting. But there is another problem. How restrictive are the dorms?
In my school's I can't conduct most of my hobbies. They go so far as to ban soldering irons and toaster ovens (what I use for reflow) as they are a source of fires.
San Francisco is unmatched when it comes to accessing mentors who have been entrenched in technology.
I'm a student at Holberton School, which is project based (like Ecole 42) and community driven. For example, one of our mentors in the Deep Learning track is none other than Louis Monier who founded Alta Vista.
I hear they're not in San Francisco, but in Fremont, CA, which is somewhere around the Bay, but not technically in the Silicon Valley (it's about an hour away of public transportation from the interesting places), which explains why it's probably more affordable over there.
In this case, it seems like it would have been a better choice to build the school in San Francisco proper, than its outskirts. The marginal gains in affordability aren't worth sacrificing proximity to the tech industry.
If you have no money and from far away you can apply and ask for the dorm. They are Free also. Only expense will be the food and what you do outside the School.
So I am to strive to become a "very valuable asset for any company" ... I guess dehumanization is bad only when it is done by noncorporation people.
Also - can we stop with teaching to code already. Assume instead of literacy and writing in schools we thought people how to flip pages on books with green covers. Or we were teaching people how to multiply only by 8.
Without the broader body of IT literacy, coding is not that useful skill. Except for future corporate drones working on waterfall.
We need to give people basic IT literacy - the critical mass of knowledge that allows them to obtain more and diverse knowledge on their own - so when faced with a problem to know how to formulate a question and where to look for solution.
It is not only teaching development, it's teaching UNIX, 3d, Security and much more [0].
In fact, the most important thing it's teaching is to learn by yourself. Most people just don't know how to learn without a teacher and that's the best skill you can learn if you wish to work in the industry.
That is surprising. But it seems that the talking heads in the video have not gotten that memo. Come to us to make 3d games, AI and viruses would have been a killer slogan. And instant differentiation from all the others.
It is not a pathway - it is a side effect of it. Most self taught geeks have started from "wanting to do something" and "make a computer program to do it" as the solution. It is a nice skill, but I would never code something until I have exhausted the other (lazier) possibilities.
I very rarely write raw HTML today as a web developer, but if I hadn't created my first personal webpages from scratch and known what it's like to publish to the entire world instantaneously, I would not have had the impetus to learn web dev as an engineering practice. Learning literacy is not a linear path from concept to output.
The age restrictions are odd. 3 years to learn a skill seems too much. Having to apply, so it is becomes an elitist programs, seems wrong. And their web site describes having to prove your worth in a 4 week 24x7 code fest before getting final acceptance into the program, which sounds like they do not understand the concept of burnout.
There are so many ways to learn to code... the only part these guys seem to have right is "free"
> There are no school fees: running costs for the 10 first years (estimated at 20 to 50 million euros) have been personally funded by Xavier Niel. 42 will train each year one thousand students...
There are so many billionaires and millionaires in Silicon Valley who could easily fund a school like this, it simply baffles me that none of them have a tuition-free school of their own.
So Xavier Niel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xavier_Niel French entrepreneur, do not own any US interest) is committing millions from his personal fortune to open a FREE school to teach programming and computer science in the US to student regardless of their academic background and commenters critics the initiative because the school have an age limit.
I really love 42, and I'm happy that they open a new school in US. Their curriculum is great and previous iteration have give us technical talents like the docker team.
I couldn't agree more with you. This seems like an old model of assuming that those under 30 can't work well with those over yet they are expected to enter a diverse workforce. I'm 37 and in my 4th month at a school similar to 42 in SF. I'm glad that Holberton School didn't have that age restriction or I'd still be looking for another option.
Yea, with you on that. 32 and back in school. There are a few folks that are late 30s, early 40s. Sure majority are early to mid twenties, but that hasn't stopped anyone from working together.
I'm surprised with all the negative comments focusing on the age limit. Xavier Niel committed millions to launch the school in Paris and it was an immense success which already benefits to the whole ecosystem.
What is not said in the video is the type of candidates they are looking for.
In France, as education is free, traditional "excellent" high school student don't apply to 42 and prefer to secure a place in the notorious engineering schools. 42 is rather focused on giving a second chance to bright people that didn't fit into the traditional system. The test to get qualified for the 4weeks session is only about fit/culture questions: no maths, no logic, no programming. No skills required, everyone has the same chance.
Although the target in the US might be different as tuition fees are a real problem there. Curious to see what type of students will go there.
> Xavier Niel committed millions to launch the school in Paris and it was an immense success which already benefits to the whole ecosystem
Liar. Sorry, but there is no other word and I am totally fed up with the bullshit propaganda people of 42 spread everywhere every-time. And now the lies go international.
We are in Spring of 2016. The school started in Autumn of 2013, which means that nobody has even completed the program (even the shortest one) at the expected pace. So we have a handful of students out from the short curriculum, not even a single full class, and zero from the long curriculum. Reaching any kind of conclusion is absolutely, factually impossible. Thus talking about "immense success" and "benefits to the whole ecosystem" is an "immense" steaming pile of horseshit.
For American readers: don't take anything you read about 42 at face value if it seems to originate from someone from 42. We have been enduring their bullshit for a while (a long while if you take into account the previous similar 2 schools were the same indoctrination was applied), so we are accustomed to it and we can spot the obvious lies; but Yanquis should beware :-)
> Curious to see what type of students will go there.
Well, we know they'll all be between the ages 18-30.
And yes, tuition fees are a real problem here, for people of all ages. Shame he chose to limit the program to a demographic that is already welcome and advantaged in the US's technical community.
All people over 30 can send us an email and we look To all files. When we think it can match we let people over 30 to come. In Paris we have a lot of people over 30. We also work with the french gov service for unemployed people over 50 and we have special cursus for them To give them basics to apply To new jobs. But the Time and investment needed the first year can clearly destroy people over 30 who have already family children ...
I don't understand why you are downvoted because this is a great question, and true that the top most students do not go there, they prefer engineering schools (but there is good students there).
disclosure, I am a 42 school student in Paris, first promotion
I am currently 41, went to a Coding bootcamp in Bay area and after I graduated, I struggled to find a job for 6-8 months but ultimately succeeded to land one as a developer job. But I have had to drop $12k on tuition which I think it will take couple of years to pay off. The bootcamp did very little to add value to my learning skill and portfolio of projects.
I would have applied to institution like this in a heartbeat but I guess 42 would have been a no-entry for me. Why this discrimination?
And also it is irony that they wont take anybody above 30 much less 40 years old but the institution is named as 42. Can anybody tell me why the organization named itself 42?
42 is from Douglas Adams, the answer to the question of life and all that.
I do t know about the age limit, but it might be some (possibly faulty) reasoning about commitment. Staff have been tight-lipped. We have some people from the Pole Emploi (unemployment agency) here at the moment, and they are a bit older, so some kind of trial is underway.
Ah. got it. I suspect they discourage people older than 30 assuming it will be tough to get a position in a age-biased job market? May be. Just my guess.
It can be a drop who is already a developer in Bay Area. But not for a person who is struggling to make ends meet in small cities and rural areas. Especially somebody with a family to feed and student loans. Heck I was paid close to minimum wage for 5 years during my graduate school as teaching assistant.
There's an already existing university in San Francisco named Holberton School running on this non-profit, peer-reviewed, project-based non traditional curriculum.
If the arbitrary limit set by 42 excludes you, Holberton doesn't and diversity is actually one of their grander mandates.
I have spoken with the current students and school staff: they really are getting quality training.
(Disclaimer: I'm a mentor at this school)
I'd love to signup to 42, specially after E.E. to become a soft. Eng. In fact I've been looking something like this (an internship or codecamp) that will accept someone from abroad. But as always, the need for the in-person signup and test it's what deters me.
> 42 allows students who have successfully completed the selection tests to continue their training at the Silicon Valley or Paris campuses (under the condition that they have the necessary immigration visa for their choice. The visa formalities need to be completed by the student, 42 cannot give a visa).
In the application form itself:
> If you are applying for 42 Paris you must either be a citizen of the European Union or have a valid titre de séjour while you are a student at 42.
> 42 cannot provide immigration visas for students. If you are applying for 42 Fremont you must be a citizen of the United States or have a valid green card while you are a student at 42.
What does this mean? Would 42 be able to act as a sponsor of sort if a student is successfully admitted into the program, or will this be open only to those fortunate enough to either be born in the US or EU, or have a residence permit of some sort?
This is something that looks very interesting. I wonder if this would ever come to the UK. I know France is just across the channel but there surely is massive demand for this in the UK as well.
There is something similar called NMITE, which is run by a few universities.
If you want a 42-like school, speak with your local MP. 42 is run on a budget of €7m (approximately) per year, and it would be very affordable if the government got behind it with a Royal Charter.
