> It jsut paints such a simplistic view of the world, not a real one, but one that is useful for rhetoric.
Bingo. Race is just one facet anyway. We're all born with various advantages and disadvantages, none of which we have any control over. Just as an example, some people are better looking than others ... and those people tend to have an advantage, because they're better looking. They can get better jobs, better pay, etc. all because of the way they look.
So what?
The rest of us just have to work a bit harder. That's how life works. Stop whining. No, life isn't fair. Deal with it.
> That's how life works. Stop whining. No, life isn't fair. Deal with it.
I realize that the context is different in the U.S. vs the rest of the world, but would you say "life isn't fair, deal with it" to slaves in the South in the 1800s? Or to segregated blacks in the 1900s? Or to women who couldn't vote?
Or, to use a more modern example, to Muslims who are facing prejudice and persecution because of the actions of extremists?
Throughout history, "stop whining, deal with it" has tended to be the refrain of the privileged.
> but would you say "life isn't fair, deal with it" to slaves in the South in the 1800s?
Yes, I would say exactly that.
I would tell them to accept their situation, not whine about it, then break free and run to the north. Many did just that.
When they got to the north, I would encourage them to work hard and make a better life for themselves through hard work. Many did just that.
Yes, they would need to work harder than insert privileged example here to have a good life. Because they're starting from zero. And that's fine. Because that's life.
Many of us start from zero or worse. Many of us were hurt or are being hurt by someone's unjust actions. That doesn't mean you try to rig the system.
We are born with thousands of disadvantages and thousands of advantages. You simply can't engineer a system that will compensate for all of that to create some sort of utopia. We tried that before. It didn't go so well.
> Also, is that really what you want to say on a public forum? You want to say that ending slavery was the slaves' responsibility? Interesting.
Not what I said, you need to buy new reading glasses.
Doing anything starts with the individual. If you're a slave, that means resisting and running away. If you're a white dude in the north, that means supporting abolition. You get the idea. That's the only way to get anything done.
> Recognizing privilege and inequality is not "rigging the system."
Recognizing? You're not interested in recognizing.
You're interested in discriminating against those you recognized as privileged to benefit those you recognized as disadvantaged. Which is bad enough, but really much worse because of the you part ... and the you part is always the privileged.
This isn't the minorities standing up for themselves ... it's just the privileged stacking the deck again. The only way to make sure absolute justice and fairness is to make sure the deck is never stacked. Ever. For any reason.
The first three are examples of government regulations explicitly favoring some groups over others.
That is fundamentally different from a society with legal equality for all individuals. Yes, some groups will be more popular than others. It's hard to see how that can ever be avoided.
Of course, if you are a slave, you do really need to deal with that situation as best as you can. Does anyone dispute that?
Just like the other arbitrary things that can needlessly hold a person or group of people back, if it can be fixed why not fix it? What's wrong with dealing with it that way?
You seem to suggest to that people keep quiet, keep their head down and not rock the boat.
That's a defeatist attitude and suggests that you don't think any effort should be spent trying to correct something that's broken in the world.
If the fix is "lay guilt upon and attempt to disadvantage all people of a certain skin color because some of that skin color have had an easier time in life", then it doesn't seem like much of a fix, does it?
Racism and bigotry need to be wrong in all cases or the moral authority against them is diminished.
Except no one is talking about disadvantaging people of a certain skin color (white). We're talking about trying to help bring everyone else up to the same level.
Our meritocratic society? Which planet are you from? Here on earth, we have no meritocratic society, but we do have a lot of people who confuse the advantages of their birth + not dropping the ball with pure merit.
80% of humanity lives on less than $10 per day. Do you not believe that among those billions of people, there could be many who are just as smart and hardworking as you, but have no access to the physical, social, and cultural capital they need to rise above subsistence living?
If your so-called meritocracy only applies to 10% of the earth's population, it isn't much of one.
It's interesting to note that increasing inequality within the US has been a byproduct of decreasing inequality world wide, as formerly impoverished frontier economies were allowed to compete against the American lower and lower middle working classes. This point always seems to get lost in the discussion.
While white privilege and male privilege are important realities, I don't think they are the only things that matter.
If it helps to hear this from a white male who is a believer in recognizing white privilege and male privilege: being white and/or being male are sometimes disadvantages too!
In most of America, you can't be male and teach young kids these days. People (parents) will wonder if you're a child molester, and get weirded out by the prospect of you helping kids go to the bathroom even though they'd be fine with a female teacher doing the same thing.
Recognizing something like that isn't incompatible with recognizing male privilege.
I don't disagree with any of that; every gender/race/etc has SOME kind of privilege attached to it.
The point that you're [ missing | skirting ] though is many folks use the existence of privilege to ignore/bully/hate (eg, my YT link above, the white professor who got berated on campus, etc etc).
Did black kids pick some fights with me in school because I was white? Yes. It's a real thing that happens.
It's a fallacy, of course, to dismiss a belief just because some of its believers are assholes, even if they're being assholes in the name of that cause. I mean really, no group or belief on this Earth could ever pass that criteria.
Of course it's not the only facet that matters. And I think that minorities want white males to be a part of the discussion about race.
However, oftentimes white males say the same exact things. You can kind of enumerate them, "Not all white males," "White people can be poor," "Hey, you're black, can you explain...?" etc.
I don't expect you to read it. But if you want to understand why people get frustrated when you chime in about something it's probably because they've heard the thing that you're saying a gazillion times already and are tired of responding to it. They don't owe you a response.
Finally, I'll reference John Green and say that if you're doing something that multiple people tell you is offensive or bothersome: Stop doing it.
Of course. If I were told by a reasonable threshold of people that promoting my causes [whatever they are] is bothersome, I would certainly stop around those people. [depending on how important they are, I might stop altogether]
To be honest, I don't normally try to defend this sort of thing on the internet because it's hard to establish a connection. I can't listen to your experiences, BurningFrog, and empathize. I'd like to. Because I think that that's the only way to change your opinion, and I think this is important.
That said, since I fully expect you to tell me that championing social justice is bothersome I'll let you know that you'll be the first person to tell me that [which I find surprising, although I suppose it's because I truly don't discuss it much].
Bingo. Race is just one facet anyway. We're all born with various advantages and disadvantages, none of which we have any control over. Just as an example, some people are better looking than others ... and those people tend to have an advantage, because they're better looking. They can get better jobs, better pay, etc. all because of the way they look.
So what?
The rest of us just have to work a bit harder. That's how life works. Stop whining. No, life isn't fair. Deal with it.