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Ask HN: A martial art for a programmer
58 points by micrypt on Feb 28, 2010 | hide | past | favorite | 118 comments
Dear HNers,

I fairly recently started kendō and I find it helps with building character (especially regarding dealing with pressure in my case). I'm curious about what aspects of which martial arts that others have found particularly beneficial to life as a programmer/software developer.




I study Krav Maga. I prefer a practical self defense oriented approach. It is the system developed by and taught to the Israeli military. Moves are generally very simple (important so you can be effective without years of training). The problem with pretty much all other martial arts everyone is mentioning is that they have morphed to work ideally in a competitive environment. Sure, knowing just about any martial art will give you a huge advantage against someone who isn't skilled but there are alot of things people just don't train for with BJJ, Tae Kwon Do, etc.

For example, one of the first things we learned is defending yourself from various holds and chokes. The first move, after securing your throat or loosening their grip is generally to hit them in the balls. This is one example of something most martial arts won't teach you because that's generally "against the rules", however, in a self defense scenario, there are no rules (there are however laws that you may break so keep that in mind).

You really want to avoid going to the ground if at all possible. It just makes you more vulnerable if anyone else decides to jump in and you never know what you're rolling around on. Besides, what are you going to do, put someone in a submission until help arrives? A really effective way to break a hold is to grab their pinky and twist it in a direction it doesn't want to go. If they don't let go just move on to new fingers. Also, feel free to bite them. Hard. You can also pull hair, gouge eyes, fishhook, etc. It's great to know how to defend yourself on the ground, but you want to be on the ground as little as possible as it can be a dangerous place because your opponent is probably not playing under the same rules you are.

If you want more of a philosophy then it's probably not right for you. This is pretty much just about winning fights when it matters the most.


I've studied a couple martial arts and had brief introductions to a number of others (Systema and Qi Dao are the two I've done for a while).

Every art I've seen teaches getting out of holds first because it is something a novice can do pretty easily with some understanding of technique.

I've also been hit in the balls during sparing matches a number of times. It's not the decisive hit many imagine. In fact, a strong solar plexis shot was much more effective in my personal experience.

A lot of "real world" martial arts teach about "disabling" shots that their practitioners never get to seriously try because they are, at least intended to be, truly crippling.

Yet that means that in the "real world", when assaulted, you are trying to do something you've never previously done in the same fashion.

For that reason, I think that "competition" based martial arts certainly can be at least as good for "real world" defense. The tactics used in MMA matches would work good in the real world - with the proviso to avoid fights and avoid the ground as much as possible.

If anyone wants to debate these issues in gruesome detail, look at http://bullshido.net . There's plenty of attitude there but it's a group of folks who've worked pretty hard sorting out bs from effective martial arts.


> when assaulted, you are trying to do something

"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face." --Mike Tyson


Actually, that's another problem with a lot of martial arts that teach particular actions for particular situations. One's ability to remember an complex technique or even a simple move in the middle of a conflict somewhat ... hampered.

Of course, any serious martial art is going to teach stance, balance, "flow", and state of mind as well as particular techniques. The applies to all the arts I've had minimal exposure to: BJJ, Muy Thai, Tai Chi, Aikido. I don't know if this applies to Krav Maga or not - I can only know what the KM people talk about. I'm skeptical of any "too deadly except for da streets" rhetoric from anyone.


one of the problems with grappling that BJJ doesn't address is that in many holds your opponent has the opportunity to stab you if they have a knife/shiv etc. this is most apparent in rear chokes. real self defense is not at all glamorous which is why it doesn't have the market that martial arts does. typically you're crushing or breaking something as fast as possible and then RUNNING.

I remember I was particularly impressed by one krav maga instructor who had the students spin in circles and then have another student blindside them before they knew what was happening. he also later had us get attacked from behind while sitting in a chair. of course we all looked like idiots and it wasn't very pleasant. several students complained. they just wanted to look like ninjas.


"typically you're crushing or breaking something as fast as possible and then RUNNING"

Typically, you're avoiding without getting involved. Occasionally, you're facing someone down or pushing someone away as quickly as possible and then running.

Breaking bones? Is that something you expect to do easily?

Also, if you manage to get one mega-pain-inflicting blow in mugging type situation, you might give the guy and his friends much more impetus to chase and injure you.

-- Before learning martial arts was mugged a couple of times. Despite the fact that they assaulted me, they were aiming for money. If I'd injured one guy before they got me on the ground and snitched my wallet, I might have been facing considerably more injuries.

Sure, there's lots of attitude in martial arts but I think the "this is the REAL WORLD and we fight DIRTY" folks have as much of this attitude as the wanna-be ninjas.


avoidance is a whole separate thing. sure you may talk about it in your martial arts class, but the majority of your time is spent learning about what to do when it fails yes? I'm just ignoring the avoidance scenarios.

in a mugging type situation you hand over your wallet. in an imminent death situation yes you do aim for eyes, breaking bones etc. and yes, it is easy to break bones with certain holds, so much so that accidentally breaking them is a genuine concern in class. properly applied joint locks are pretty nasty.

basing your arguments on counterfactuals seems kind of silly. things always could have been worse. the point is to minimize your risk of grievous bodily injury or death.


Ideally you want to avoid any confrontation. We were taught things like if you get into an altercation (non physical) it's best just to leave because that guy that stormed off might just be looking for a weapon or friends or liquid bravery. If someone wants to mug you give them your money. If they want your car give them your keys. No one gets into a fight unless they feel pretty confident about winning - maybe it's because they are much bigger than you or maybe its because they have a knife, a gun, or 4 friends. It's generally better to not find out which.

That being said, if you do end up having to defend yourself we were taught to disable them then back away quickly. Ideally, don't turn your back to them and run. The only thing I'd really be aiming to break is their will to get back up and come at me.


Heh, that reminded me of this practical self defense oriented approach:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2REG3-Wb5gM

"First you're going to want to get wrist control. Then, you pull out your gun."


You get that the video is comedy, no?

Aikido gets a lot of bad press but it's worth remembering that comes from Aki-Jujitsu, which was created to allow armed samurai to gain control of unarmed opponents.

It seem pretty obvious that if you've got a gun, you should put yourself in a position where you're wrestling with your opponent - keep them at the minimum at arm's length. I've heard that why Akido uses straight-arm throws.

Walking the city armed for real is pretty literally looking for trouble anyway.


I get that it's comedy.

Actually, if you've got a gun you want to stay about 20 feet away from your assailant. They've done tests on reaction time, and someone inside of 20 feet can easily close and attack with a knife by the time you draw your gun. Conversely, if you have balls of steel and want to defend yourself against an armed assailant, start within 20 feet and have a knife. Corollary: be capable of hitting a target at greater than 20 feet range. (Not difficult but requires practice.)

There's something to be said for concealed weapons as a self defense technique--it's among the easiest to learn and the most effective. A month of firearms training can defeat someone with years of training in traditional weapons (which is kind of the reason militaries switched to firearms in the first place).

Awareness, keeping your distance, and not getting into dangerous situations in the first place are most of what you need. If you're focused on winning a fight at all you're not focused on effective self defense. There are a lot of good reasons to get into martial arts, but being able to win street fights isn't one of them.


I went through law enforcement training (though never ended up working in law enforcement) in Florida a few years ago. One of the firearms drills was to draw and fire two shots from the hip while blocking with the weak hand at 9 feet in 2 seconds. It was intended to simulate exactly that sort of scenario.

The outcome of a gun/knife confrontation at short range is not at all certain. Most wounds from a knife or handgun are not instantly incapacitating, and are often survivable. I would tend to bet on the person with a gun, but both are likely to be injured.


Yeah, you definitely want the gun. But "the outcome is not at all certain" is another way of saying "you're not safe at that range, not even with a gun".


Absolutely. If someone 20 feet away really wants to injure you with a knife, it's probably going to happen.


I was taught in hapkido to hit the person in the balls. We weren't allowed to do it in class obviously but we were told that was a valid technique.


We practice by hitting high up on the inner thigh. I recommend (and do) wear a cup.


For practical defense in mugging type situations, one of the biggest things to worry about is KNIVES. This video gives a lot of great points, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFr30p0aZl0 be sure to watch it to the end and not just the first half.


A practical defense to a mugging is really just to give them your money (or avoid places where you might be mugged). Even very skilled people have a high chance of being cut if attacked by someone with a knife. It's just not worth it over your wallet.

As for that video - all of that and not a single Shark OR Jet.


Krav Maga is pretty cool, but I wouldn't call it a "martial art". There are no aesthetics in Krav Maga, no spectators, no tournaments, and no rules. Krav Maga is for people who want to defend themselves efficiently.


Surely then, programming also is not an art. Don Knuth, you are wrong.


I found American Jiu Jitsu to have a similarly practical orientation.


Jiu-Jitsu is one of the more practical martial arts, since it's much closer to its street-fighting origins. Krav Maga stretches the definition of 'martial art' for some people, because of its focus on practicality, lack of formal competitions, and complete disregard for the safety of the person you're attacking. Jiu-Jitsu has the sometimes-useful property of generally being less-than-lethal, although the majority of the techniques have a high chance of causing lasting, sometimes permanent, damage.

In terms of relations to programming: Krav Maga has a heavy focus on edge cases, and a "good enough" philosophy. Jiu-Jitsu focuses on perfecting a smaller number of core cases.


Depends on what kind of programmer you are. If you do a lot of concurrent programming in C++ then chainsaw fencing should be right for you. An advanced Lisp programmer can practice blasting opponents with pure Chi energy.


I recommend chainsaw nunchucks over chainsaw fencing. It's a personal preference.


Ah, the multithreaded assembly programmers who use self-modifying code for synchronization. Sorry about having forgotten about you guys.


I wouldn't have made it through grad school without Shotokan Karate (http://www.ska.org/). It helps that they're non-profit, so you know you're learning and not just paying for belts. Plus, they have very intense "Special trainings" around the country at different points in the year. They're a great organization.

While it's easy for some to dismiss "mystical" aspects, look at the real world applications. If you suffer from "pressure" that could be a moderate form of anxiety. A great combat to the parasympathetic response? Breathing.

Watch what happens when you get punched in the gut. Your immediate, initially uncontrollable desire is to blindly fight like hell or turn and run. Keeping a calm head takes practice to overcome the rush of hormones. Breathing slows the heart and tempers the response. It's the same reason elite athletes, especially runners, know the power of proper breathing.

I tend to think many mystical aspects had some physiological root that then got adulterated over time. Breathing as the route to relaxation is first on my list.


I prefer training for martial arts over martial arts themselves.

I do dands (Hindu pushups) and bethaks (Hindu squats) almost every day.

Want to build character? Do 500 bethaks. Your quads will be screaming, begging you to stop at 200, 300, even 400. But you keep going. Because you know that as soon as you stop, you gave up too easily. But once you finish, you can do anything. Eerily similar to starting a software business.


But once you finish, you can do anything

Except walk. Kidding aside, I agree these are great exercises to get the blood going. I need to get back into practice!


I would say Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. You can make good progress very quickly, it's a lot of fun, can be very demanding physically (but doesn't always have to) and is called "chess on the mat" which should appeal to a programmer's analytical minds. Plus, there's a ton of BJJ ressources on the net and the community is very active.


I really enjoyed BJJ for the short time I tried it. The problem is I could easily see overpaying for it, with poor teachers, in the current MMA context. My other concern is that it's more grappling than contact, which seems less practical. I had a strong background in wrestling (4 years) and Karate (5 years) by that point. I really liked it, but I'm not sure it's right for a beginner.


My other concern is that it's more grappling than contact

Grappling isn't contact?


Poor choice of words. At that distance, you don't know what happens, and how to respond, when your bell gets rung.


Then also do MMA ground-and-pound drills if that concerns you. I find my BJJ base (purple belt) helps immensely when I have someone in my guard trying to punch me in the face.


In practical circumstances, I don't know why I'd willingly go to the ground, especially against someone bigger (and usually that's what bullies are). And I say that as a former wrestler.


All martial artists know from extensive research on internet forums, that 99% of street fights go to the ground.


Very true. Martial arts have different beneficial aspects, but if your only concern is winning street fights, from my understanding all you really have to do is become an accomplished boxer and wrestler.


Sometimes you don't have a choice.


By "contact" he means strikes such as punches, kicks, etc.


Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is very appealing to me because it's very "realist." In a real-world fight or confrontation between 2 people, most of the time (above 90%, I think) the combatants wind up on the ground. BJJ really teaches the student how to deal with fights on the ground. If you're in a ground fight, you need to know how to control the centre of gravity as well as the numerous holds and limb locks.


The problem is if you're a beginner, you think those locks are easy in the real-world. Meanwhile, you're getting punched and kicked in the head. Staying on your feet and knowing when to run like hell is just as important a skill, as is avoiding getting hit. BJJ works well in a cage and between two people. Keep in mind that's a very controlled environment.


The problem is if you're a beginner, you think those locks are easy in the real-world.

That's going to be true of any discipline one starts training in. For example, I think boxing is a great way to learn stand-up self-defense, but a beginner is still going to be susceptible to someone who wants to clinch or go to the ground. Everyone has to start somewhere.

Also, if you're a beginner in BJJ, you should learn very quickly that those locks aren't even easy when live rolling.


"BJJ works well in a cage and between two people. Keep in mind that's a very controlled environment."

I knew a cop in Philly who said it's saved his life countless times, and asserted it was more useful than Judo and Tang Soo Do. YMMV


BJJ works well in a cage and between two people

BJJ works well between two people. There, fixed that for you. Please don't confuse UFC matches with applied BJJ, just because Gracie won the first few.


No, the original was right. You'll find it loses its effectiveness when you clinch someone who then stabs you repeatedly. Or perhaps you roll across a large piece of glass or get your head bashed against a curb or pavement. I think BJJ is great for what it is but I hate to see people confuse it for something it isn't.


BJJ is great, but: get a brazilian teacher if possible, and avoid BJJ if you have any knee problems, I messed mine up.


I think Aikido is a very good option, not only to programmers, but to all the people. It's a martial art which is meant to preserve the integrity of both players. Both mental and body health are the main concerns of this martial art.


I would also like to recommend Aikido. I've studied Aikido Yoshokai for four years, and found it incredibly rewarding. It's a unique blend of happy enthusiasm (I've heard new students ask why everyone is grinning all the time) with respectful discipline.

Probably best to not characterize it as a martial art, though. You'll learn timing, joint locks and throws, sword, staff, and knife techniques, how to fall safely... but most importantly, how to clearly lead and completely follow, depending on circumstances. I've heard it phrased as "the study of harmony"--not just in physical confrontations, but in arguments, office power struggles, and hard life decisions. It's not necessarily a good way to beat someone up: maybe more of a way to resolve a conflict without so much fighting.


For what it's worth, I found that the aesthetic of Aikido was typically appealing to people in the math/computer science fields. While I hold no strong opinions about its ability to make one a good fighter, I did think it was enjoyable, grounding, and beautiful. That combination seems to line up with the original poster's appreciation of Kendo.


god I hate the "peaceful warrior" crap pushed by certain practitioners of aikido. Osensei tells us that the best way to start an aiki is to belt someone in the face. traditional aikido teaches both striking while the opponent is pinned down and completing the movement of joint locks to break bones. most easily understood: would aikido teach the katana if it wasn't about inflicting harm? how many non-lethal cutting techniques do you know?


O'Sensei's thought and style evolved throughout his life. In his younger days, pre-WWII, yes, he was rough and tumble. Movements were sharper and more direct. Break bones, crush your enemy. He did this frequently while in the Japanese military while serving in China as a bodyguard.

As he grew older, post-WWII, his philosophy and style became much softer and more spiritual than the styles he studied in his younger days. This was due, in part, to his age (changing perspective and physical decline) and the influence of the Omoto-kyo. In these later days, the purpose of training with weapons were twofold: help students learn body dynamics and learn to defend oneself against an armed attacker. The purpose wasn't to be armed and gut your enemies, the purpose was to understand the mindset of an armed aggressor, know their movements, and meet their movements without being gutted yourself.


Softer in the sense of not attacking directly as much, but still dangerous.

I've heard (second-hand) a story about a high-level practitioner who got to spar with O-Sensei and at times he felt like he might not survive.


Yeah, that's a strange contradiction. It's never enough to cut off someone's hands and cut their jugular; you need to cut clean through the abdomen too. I think various schools approach that in different ways; with Yoshokai, for example, it tends to be a timing and position exercise somewhat removed from actually killing someone. Perhaps both views of the technique are valid.


I studied Aikido for a short time. I was lucky enough to train with some people who thought the whole peaceful warrior thing was basically crap. It was one of the most intense things I've ever done. If you are picking an Aikido dojo, look for one that teaches sword movements; otherwise you're not getting the full experience.

Aikido is frustrating because it might require 10 years to become good enough for it to be marginally useful in a fight. However, how often do you really get into fights? If you're an aikidoist, you've basically accepted that you're learning about a beautiful art form. If you want the most effective way to hurt someone, try Krav Maga.

If you are the sort of person who is attracted to complex, difficult ideas that make you re-evaluate everything, aikido may be for you.

Aikidoists also tend to be professionals. It is sometimes called a gentleman's martial art. (No offense to ladies.) You often encounter doctors and lawyers and artists so on. On the other hand, in any reasonable dojo, none of that matters.


Wing Chun. Shortest attacks from point A to point B. Get the issue over with fast. No fancy kicks or meta moves. You train in what you wear everyday. It also has an amazing history. Unlike Karate which has hard movements, like most forms of Gung Fu, it all revolves around flowing, snapping and potential energy.

Beautiful, but pragmatic.


I've been practicing Wing Chun for 5 years now, and I must say it's probably the martial art that would suit a programmer mind the best.

Very logic, geometric.

It's a lot like C. Not so many basic "constructs" (no "batteries included"), but you can combine the basics to do powerful stuff.


I used to do kendo and loved it. I tried taking a kung fu course for a phys. ed. requirement at college and hated it.

Martial arts are not some magical thing you do; this isn't anime, people. They're just highly refined methods of bringing the hurt to someone.

Kendo was very good exercise; the time we did 1,200 suburi for the new year (100 per month) was quite the workout. I regret dropping it due to schedule problems. However much I enjoyed it, though, I don't really think it conferred any special advantages to me as an engineer compared to any other form of exercise.


Growing up we watched tons of martial art related shows because they "looked cool", but while my brothers took some courses I never did (I was teaching myself BASIC). Being older and seeing life a bit differently I see martial arts differently as well. I stumbled across a new show where I was surprised to see childhood action-hero Steven Seagal as a real sheriff. It's a good example to me of the real, rather than tv side, of martial arts, and I'd probably study Aikido if I got into something. Check this out: http://www.aetv.com/steven-seagal-lawman/video/?bcpid=468810...


I second Aikido for a software developer martial art. It requires no physical force to apply techniques and control opponents (if you're a big burly guy your learning of Aikido will actually be hampered because the technique will work even if you don't do it properly), which is probably what you want if you're of average programmer build.

If you like attacking, Aikido is not for you though. The movements are strictly defensive.


Though not entirely an answer to the question: I've never found any aspect of my martial art of choice (jiu-jitsu) particularly beneficial to my life as a software developer. At most, I think practicing sports helps to keep a healthy body as the counterpart to a healthy mind. In general, I think there are principles of martial arts that can serve as adequate analogies to principles in software engineering (know your tools, be aware of your enemies, use the path of the least resistance, practice makes perfect, it pays to broaden your skills, ...) but knowledge and understanding of those principles is not bound to actually practicing them.


I can only speak for the Chinese Martial Art I have trained and been exposed to - Wing Chun and Choy Li Futt. It is now a way of life for me. Primarily, I am a Wing Chun practitioner.

If you are using the Agile methodology, Wing Chun would be good. It emphasizes 1) adapting to change - This is especially true in the second form "Chum Kil" which transition from one position to another 2) least wastage - punch is a straight line to the target 3) cooperation to achieve a single target - a punch in Wing Chun is the utilization of the powers of your leg, hips, torso, shoulder, elbow transferred to the fist 4) getting immediate feedback - the chi sao (sticking hands) exercise trains you to be sensitive and look for places to enter 5) respect of difference of opinions - a tan sao can be used as to defend or attack depending on the person

If your SDLC is a waterfall method, try Choy Li Futt. Things I learned from this are 1) Commitment to a set of combination early - I have combos in Choy Li Futt which I carry through all the way, regardless of what the opponent does. The decision of what to do is made after assessing the situation (aka requirements gathering) and before the first strike

2) Using a different approach to a problem - My favorite strikes from this style is the spinning elbow and using the forearm as a striking weapon

The primary difference to me is that Choy Li Futt is a brute force solution to a problem and Wing Chun depends more on an algorithm to resolve the problem

Good luck!


I think any martial arts taken seriously is good for you. You realize that mastery comes w/ only years of practice and don't develop that short sightedness of thinking you will hit a homerun on your first time (competing). My martial arts training has tempered my own patience. If I get impatient as to why I am not getting something already, I go back to what I tell my own students: If you haven't done it a 1000 times yet, it's ok that it's not great yet, don't be frustrated. Practice practice practice.


Agreed.

I find martial arts discussions funny. More often than not it's a bunch of people arguing over which one is the "best" in a "real-world fight", which usually degrades into arguments over what "real-world fights" are like, because none of them has ever actually been in one. But it's pretty silly: I know I'd have fun in any martial art right now. If I wanted to know how to fight someone for real, I'd study some form of military combat.


I went back to classic karate after a really long brake, Okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate, and it is really making a big difference to my life. Goju-Ryu is quite physical in the training, which means that most training passes give you a really good workout.

There are a number of things which I find particularly beneficial to my work (I am not programmer as such, but a founder of an internet services startup), some fairly obvious:

- It is great to be forced to use another part of the brain regularly, my body may be tired but my head is less tired after each training pass, it is like an energy injection

- I am physically much fitter now, 15 months after I started, this may be obvious, but it makes a big difference to how much work I can do and how well I feel

- my wife tells me I don't stall or give up so easily anymore when I have more work to do, particularly stuff at home

- I am forced to leave work on training days (I work from home) and not stay and, ineffectively, trying to get more done. I feel like I am more effective, despite the hours that go to training and commuting back and forth to the dojo

- I have no back problems or issues with circulation in my legs anymore, I tend to spend a lot of time sitting working, this is great

My club and the particular style I practise doesn't put much emphasis on competition (it is actually discouraged) which means that there is a really helpful, non-macho, atmosphere at the dojo. Everybody is very helpful and the training really becomes about self improvement rather than trying to be better than the others. It helps that we have some really excellent trainers as well. The head of the club is well respected internationally for his work. http://www.iogkf.se/


I really like this thread for its information content about different styles. I have a few general comments:

- The school/teacher is much more important than the style. Make sure you find a teacher than is not profit oriented or arrogant. Signs of a bad teacher: has his face on the wall, has his name on the school, won't talk to you when you visit, tolerates bad attitude amongst his students.

- Martial-arts is essentially applied classical mechanics. Leverage, angle, distance, bone structure, hip turning... make sure people explain this to you instead of talking about tigers, praying mantii or age old traditions.

- practice horse stance on your own: it's the shit ! http://images.google.ca/images?q=horse+stance

- I highly recommend wing chun kung fu. You learn a few basic moves and then you can combine them like lego pieces. Check out these doods controlling the space in front of them in a RELAXED manner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFuqC6CTKV8


Karate(shotokan) made me more disciplined and taught me to endure pain. That comes in handy in dealing with a dumb boss, a nagging client, or any of the overall suck-y conditions we work with everyday.

Also, sparring amazingly taught me to control my thoughts to achieve a certain goal. So it helps when chasing bugs to clear your mind and organize your thoughts.

Sadly, i don't practice anymore.


Have a look at Wing Chun Kung Fu. Amazingly complicated and deep. Every move is defence and attack at the same time using minimum energy, quite relevant nowadays.


Another vote for Wing Chun for being great. I trained several martial arts in my youth and here are my thoughts on some of them that I have at least some experience with.

- Taekwondo (and karate styles) - do them if you're in it for sport factor. They are mostly based on "hard style" which means physical training, repetition, power and endurance.

- Wing Chun - Excellent kung fu MA and probably the easiest to get into (Wushu being the oposite and acrobatic). Great ROI on time invested and no need for hard training.

- Jiu Jitsu - excellent complementary MA for kung fu styles (like wing chun or wushu) since they are considered "weak" on the floor.

- Shorinji Kempo - probably the most balanced MA out of them all I've seen (I'll explain later)

- Kenjutsu - if you'd like to train with the sword :)

What you have to realize though is that you're not in it to be a ninja or whatever, you'll not fight anyone on the streets flying all over and shooting power orbs (right?), so you have to ask yourself what you'd like to train for.

As a fellow that sits around computers for long times I recommend one of these:

a) - Qigong - this is the base for everything, you will feel health benefits from it and geenrally feel more power flowing through you. If you can pick only one do this. Wing Chun is 99% accompanied with Qigong (also sometimes called Chi gung, kung) practice.

you can accompany Qigong with either Wing Chun (and Jiu Jitsu) if you want to train to be a competent defensive fighter or you can substitute Wing Chun with Tai Chi (Chuan) which is basically a battle version of Qigong so you can train only Tai Chi.

or b)

- train Shorinji Kempo and accompany it with Qigong

I also hear rather good things about Aikido and Hapkido, but I have no exposure to them.


Another vote for Wing Chun / Wing Tsun here. I've been training with Bay Mountain Wing Tsun for about 10 years, really fun group, and very technical and precision oriented. I think what I like best about this style is that the teaching curriculum is very well thought through; it all builds on the things that come before, and you always get a very clear sense of your progress and your goals.


I think any martial art is beneficial as the very nature forces you to stop thinking about programming. I've personally chosen Muay Thai as it puts special emphasis on physical conditioning, and I tend to work best not stressing (or thinking about) how I'm going to get my day's exercise.


I agree. The idea that a martial art can help with programming is a bit of a carryover from when they were considered 'mystical' or 'dangerous' in the mid-late 1970s/early 1980s. Having studied a few and wrestled in HS, I would agree that the real benefit they have is taking your mind off of work, getting exercise, and beating people up/getting beat up. It's fun , and that's what exercise should be.

So, do what you want and work hard at it. Don't try to think there's any mystical connection between the body and mind that a martial art can help cultivate.


I went looking for the same thing and found it hard to separate the philosophy (and, with certain martial arts like wing chun, the internal politicizing) and history of the art from the practice of it. I found I wanted something deeper to be there, and there wasn't.

I occasionally row, and instead I did boxing for a while, and with both my focus was on form and mechanics over physical conditioning (yes, there's lots of form in boxing). The "exercise" is a natural outgrown of the deliberate practice.

I didn't work up enough physical conditioning that they let me spar, but I intend to go back for it.


i have no idea how martial arts would help my programming other than some kind of meditation-centric art (shaolin?). i do arnis/eskrima, which are philipino martial arts. the hand to hand is similar to muay thai but a little more focus on defense like locks. the stick fighting is neat because your reflexes improve and you learn how to move (good for sparring). i imagine most weapons classes would be good to sharpen your hand-eye coordination.


Just like it's important to learn multiple languages to be a well-rounded programmer, you should train in multiple styles of martial arts to become a well-rounded fighter.

I recommend kickboxing for learning fundamentals of open-hand stand up fighting, Sambo or BJJ for ground fighting, and Filipino martial arts (Kali/Arnis/Eskrima) for weapons and to tie it all together. Wing Chun fits in nicely as well, and JKD is worth your time too.

I echo the sentiments of the people who say it's less about the style than the teacher. A good teacher will expose you to outside concepts. A good teacher will teach you to be practical and not flashy. I strongly recommend you focus on practicality. Always ask yourself, "how will this actually help me if I have to defend myself?" I've seen practitioners of certain styles get completely taken down because they were not taught to be practical - nothing to do with the style per se, but they didn't have good teachers. In particular, I recall a Tae Kwan Do fighter try to use spinning kicks while sparring. As soon as he started to turn his back, his opponent simply stepped forward and kicked him in the balls from behind.

Value practicality over all else.


doesn't matter as long as there is sparring. martial arts without sparring is a dance class. martial arts with sparring is an unmissable experience.


I agree completely, especially free sparring with few rules. Getting punched (or kicked) is an important experience to have and understand. The parasympathetic response is so powerful, the only way to truly understand it is to go through it.


I also agree.

I've started training in judo a couple of years back. I love it and I recommend it to everyone.


Doesn't really matter. Pick a few that interest you and try them out for a month. Try at least two different schools for each style. Saying Tien Shan Pai sucks and Liu He Ba Fa rocks, makes no sense. It's just whatever works for you. I know a guy that was absolutely in love with Hsing Yi Quan, had studied it for 20 years. I found it intolerably boring. Tang Lang on the other hand was a blast.

A lot of it depends on the vibe of the school as well. That's why I say try a couple.

If you want to ground and pound, and that's what gets you off, try a bit of some grappling styles. BJJ is ok, but depending on where you live there's probably some modern style schools you can give a go at also (usually some combo of Muay Thai and some kind of grappling).

If you want to enjoy something with a long history, and steep yourself in the culture, try some kind of Kung Fu style. I find Chinese styles exercise different parts of the brain I don't use as much for engineering and actually can be very relaxing. Most of it is highly impractical in a modern setting, but it's like studying painting or calligraphy or some such.

If you want to be tightly disciplined, Japanese styles, with their strict emphasis on form, ceremony and procedure can be highly enjoyable. I liked my brief study of Shotokan for just that reason, it allowed me to turn off the self-discipline for a bit and let something else take charge.

If you want something you can maybe take to high levels of sport and competition, Tae Kwon Do is probably the place to go. There are a bajillion TKD places around, so choose wisely. Lots of them will be belt-mills selling personal fitness more than the Olympic sport. Try to find a school with lots of Korean students.

But there are others, off the beaten path you can try and have fun with too like Escrima or Capoeira.


If you're not concerned with practicality at all, Capoiera is worth a look. It's a much slower martial art (especially Angola), and tends to focus more on prediction and setting the other player up. How movements flow into each other is a significant consideration as well. I wouldn't ever use it in a fight. But it's more approachable as a casual interest.


I studied karate for years. I would recommend finding something with a strong heritage to traditional martial arts - this is more important than style, you should be able to trace the lineage of your teachers back to someone notable. http://www.amazon.com/Moving-Zen-Journey-Bushido-Warrior/dp/... this is a nice book regarding this topic. I personally would recommend tai chi or karate over kendo. imho, kendo is not exactly practical these days, it tends to be a bit stuffy for me and in most karate schools you will get weapons training after you advance far enough.


Taekwondo. Lacks mystical energy crap, and is practical.


I don't know. It's always seemed more about point scoring. When we practiced against advanced students, they relied too much on kicks which aren't very practical against anyone who knows to move in. The sparring is too controlled. Plus, in real life you aren't wearing padding.

That's just my take. But then I think some of the mystical "crap" has a physiological basis. How many of us breathe deeply?


The reality is that most people don't need or have much use for practical fighting skills, they need practical running skills.

Modern Taekwondo is a sport and it can be great fun. If you can find a good school that isn't just a belt factory, it's well worth doing. Particularly if they teach a little Hapkido on the side.


When you're in a confrontation, there's either fight or flight. The practitioners of parkour consider it a martial art in that it represents the "flight" aspect.


Yeah, I went to a Taekwondo place that also taught Hapkido and found it a very good combination: Taekwondo will get you in very good shape (Olympic-style sparring builds up cardio and flexibility quite well) and Hapkido is what you actually use if you have to mess a dude up.

In general, I'd have to say it really depends on the teacher...a good teacher can make any martial art useful, just as a bad one can make any completely useless.


Sure, if you see it as an Olympic sport, I've got no complaint. But with all the colors, I have trouble seeing it as anything other than a belt factory.


Learning how to fall is also extremely practical self-defense training.


I was explained to really early on that "mystical energy crap" is a visualization tool. You can think about how you should control breathing and contract muscles in a sequence while balancing OR you could imagine being rooted to the ground and channeling "energy" from your grounded foot through belly onwards to the arm and fist "through" the target you are aiming at (just one example). It's all for practical purposes, see it only as a tool (unless you're into Kempo+Zen). It's all based on hard cold facts - for example it's easier to bear the load, punch something or absorb an impact while exhaling rather than inhaling.


Not a martial art exactly but I would say fencing without a doubt. It's like physical chess


Seconded. I've only been doing it for about a year, but I really love fencing. It's the only sport I've done where I tend to laugh when the opponent scores a point because they out-clevered me.


It is a martial art; it's just not an Asian martial art.


Swordfighting is a [set of] martial art[s]. Fencing is a sport. Unless you find a teacher who's interested in things like targetting vulnerable spots, putting power behind a strike and maintaining defense after a point is scored.


I second that, having practiced fencing for a year. That's pretty much the wording we'd use to describe it.


Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Practical and Powerful. Great lineage. Check it out.


I'd recommend Eskrima/Kali (Philipino martial arts) if you can find a teacher near you. Eskrima builds strong and flexible wrists in a way that most other arts don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rckWVZl_GsA

Another reason I prefer Philipino martial arts to Japanese arts is that the latter tends to be rigid and emphasize gatekeeping. When I studied Kendo, the attitude was "level up before we let you spar". In contrast, I got my ass whooped one month into Eskrima. (Obviously this is also highly dependent on the teacher.)


My vote is for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (Gi or No Gi), Boxing, or Kickboxing (Muay thai).

I think BJJ will especially appeal to the nerd in you, I'm not sure why, but it does. The awesome thing about BJJ is you don't need to be very athletic to be good. Its also a very practical art and you'll get to spar everyday. In terms of self development, BJJ will crush your soul and teach you what your ego is all about. The BJJ journey is just a rewarding and frustrating as the startup journey, and you'll never stop learning new techniques and things about yourself. Good luck


All of you Kung Fu people should come and join http://kungfupeople.com Built (Django, Python) by a programmer and a technical project manager.


As others have mentioned BJJ because... 1. A weaker opponent can take down a much stronger/bigger one using leverage and his mind 2. It's comparable to chess or a mental sport

For a striking example of #1 see this video where Royce Gracie (6'1" 180 lbs) defeats Legendary Sumo Grand Champion Akebono (6'8" 486 lbs) using BJJ. I can't imagine that being possible with any other style of martial arts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POJ2T023M4I


I've studied a couple martial arts in various amounts: Judo, Kendo, Tae Kwon Do, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. All are interesting in their own ways, but I recommend Judo and BJJ... or Kendo if you need to vent by beating people with sticks :)

In fact, I would say to try Judo and see what you like about it. If you like the throwing, then stick with Judo. If you like the grappling (which unfortunately, sport Judo mostly lacks these days...) then switch to BJJ.


For me personally martial arts helps to build a character which in turn may help you grow as a programmer, but that's an effect of growing as a person. I practice sanda which is similar to muai thai but there are many other arts which focus more on the inner side, and you can gain a lot of concentration and peace by practicing them, which in turns could help you as a programmer when you have to deal with difficult tasks.


I've started with searching for a martial art fitting for me 2,5 years ago. I hadn't been training for a quite some time and I really needed to do something about it. I had practiced Judo during my child and early teen years and practiced Tae Kwon Do during college.

I quit both because, in my personal opinion they are too focused on doing one thing fairly well while more or less ignoring other aspects of fighting. For example: I found it very annoying that Judo did not allow any punches or kicks. While Tae Kwon Do didn't allow throws or ground fighting. Basically I was looking for a different look at fighting, be it kicking, punching, locks, throws or fighting with weapons. In my view everything should be possible depending on the context. At that time I found two possible matches (in my neighborhood) for what I was looking for in a martial art: Takeda Ryu and Krav Maga. After having followed three lessons of Takeda Ryu I didn't bother of looking at Krav Maga anymore since Takeda Ryu and the people training at the dojo matched what I was looking for.

So now I have been training Takeda Ryu Kobilza Ha for 2,5 years. I'm still just a beginner and need to learn a lot, but I enjoy training very much and that's what I consider to be the most important. Whatever martial art you like to start make sure you enjoy it and feel safe in the dojo.

I have the impression that it does have an effect on me outside the dojo, although I find it hard to describe what the effect exactly is.

Currently I'm practicing five budo disciplines in Takeda Ryu Kobilza Ha:

- Aikido (throws, locks ) - Iaido (swiftly drawing the sword and cutting correctly) - Jodo (fighting with a stick) - Jukempo (kicking, punching combined with throws and locks) - Kendo (fighting with a drawn sword)

If you would like to know more about Takeda Ryu, have a look at http://istb.info/index.php/home.html or look at some footage of demonstrations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INx_CSA_I78 and our main event in Vienna Austria: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sxtTNjKSsk&;

ps: This is my own very personal and limited look at martial arts and I do not want to disrespect any Judo, Tae Kwon Do, Krav Maga or any other martial art practitioners.


Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu. Fighting is without strikes, instead you have holds, locks and chokes. You win by submitting your opponent, usually on the ground.

It's like chess, but with your body. Combat is very close, but still not aggressive. Many technical and tactical aspects.

Develops strength, endurance, balance, timing and a feeling for moving/rolling. Makes your body slick and flexible.

And it makes you enjoy a better in sex.. seriously ;-)


When I was in school I was lucky enough to find a place that offered a mix of wing chun, kali, muay thai, and moves from arts like silat. This was before the MMA/BJJ craze so there was not much "grappling" at the time. I could not find a similar school in the Bay Area so I went to Fairtex. I don't think it developed any skills directly related to programming, but it was a lot of fun.


Ignore everything, go with Brazilian Jiujitsu. Saying BJJ doesn´t work in real life is like saying Ruby doesn't scale.

If you want to become a killer machine, learn BJJ, box, wrestling and muay-thai and stop programming. If you want to get fit and exercise your mind and body, train BJJ.

There are plenty of gyms in the US with great black belts. Look for Alliance, Gracie Barra, Paragon, Brotherhood.


Definitely Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (BJJ). It's a very effective martial art, and its technical nature makes it a very good fit for an analytical mind. I've only been at it for a few months but so far I love it.

I haven't tried Judo, but I expect that'd be similarly interesting.


I do Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, some boxing and MMA. It's my main hobby and time sink after work. Our gym focuses a lot on conditioning and just good ol' grit. Being mentally broken from conditioning drills makes everything else not as bad.


I really like Modern Arnis (10yrs). Repeating patterns everywhere, and soo much variations. The drills have logic, and I assume that programmers can vary their movements much better, as programming values flexibility.


Jim Brown in "One Down, Two To Go" (1982):

"I may not know kung fu, but I'm an expert in gun fu."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086051/quotes


Wow, a fellow Kendo-ka yes i find that martial arts helps overall in all aspects of your life.


martial arts is not just about the practicality of techniques, the difference between a '-do' and '-jitsu' is just that e.g. kendo - kenjitsu, judo - jujitsu. jitsu's are primarily focused on techniques and kill, where as do's are focused on the spirituality. there are mutual benefits for both programming and martial arts, with the mind set of a programmer you tend to question and try to understand how your body works as a system. Personally regardless of what martial arts you choose, you will get the same benefits, other than the techniques that you learn, you will find out more about yourself. Whats more important is who is your teacher/master/sensei and the attitude of your peers.


No offense, but this is kind of a dumb question. A martial art is not much different from any other sport, programmer or not. Play tennis, box, what's the difference?

My two cents on which martial art to pick is boxing or one of the kickboxing varieties. The "east asian" martial arts schools in your American strip mall practically never emphasize that fighting is 90% physical fitness and strength, and so I regard them as a bit of a joke. Rare is the taekwondo student who'd last three rounds against a golden gloves guy.

I mean, you see fat people coming out of these karate classes. There's very rarely such a thing at a muay thai or boxing gym that actually fields fighters. When I was boxing it wasn't rare for guys to puke.

I suppose nerds want to think fighting is this cerebral thing where all these advanced skills with funny japanese names make the difference. Sorry, it's mostly being able to hit hard and keep doing it a lot for minutes.


No offense, but I think your opinion shows why most martial arts are in a state of disgrace right now. Martial arts are very different from one another.

True martial arts are supposed to give you three things: - Ability for self defense - Good health (not only physical health) - Some sense of inner peace, zen, or whatever you may want to call it.

One of the many problems of the current state of things is that most societies are culturally oriented to consume things, the more the better (no offense, but the Americans excel at this). So most people wouldn't want to learn a martial art and start very slowly, nor they would spend 6 months learning the basics. They think that the more you learn, the better.

In martial arts, you learn very little and practice alot. In the past, students would spend 6 months just doing simple movements, one of the reasons was that if you don't get the basics wrong you would not go far. I agree with you that today most people practice martial arts and don't have a clue of how to defend themselves, but in the past if a martial arts master would not know how to fight he would simply end up dead or severely hurt. Nowadays, people want to be able to fight after 2 classes and want to be black belts or masters after one or two years.

A good example of this kind if practice is Muay Thai fighers. They do not show that many techniques, yet they are devastating because they dedicate and practice alot. Another good example of fighting with strategy is BJJ. You see smaller guys with much less strength taking on bigger guys by employing smart strategy.

Either way, there's much more about martial arts than physical strength. My advice is that you first define your aims. What do you want? Be a good fighter? Be in a good shape? Dedicate some time, or just a few hours on the weekend?

Based on your objectives, you will be able to choose wisely.


Aikido surely... for when you build something compelling, you can deflect VCs as they come at you and make it look like their fault.


Have you considered the Scottish martial art? It's called Fuh Kyou.

(Yes, I deserve every down-mod I get for that)


I thought you had typed "Marital Art"…

…my bad. Moving on.


Some thoughts should be kept to one's self. I think.


Don't miss out on his .94 year long comment history

http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=sambeau

It sums up to -1 by the way.


Seems a bit harsh for what was just a bad pun. But never mind. I certainly wasn't trying to offend anyone.


Doesn't matter if you start with python or scheme, but the next one makes you understand more and gets closer to mastery.




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