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Why you should not develop apps for Windows 10 (irrlicht3d.org)
386 points by irrlichthn on Jan 20, 2016 | hide | past | favorite | 269 comments



It's crazy just how… unfinished everything involving Windows 10 seems to be. Half-assed UI concepts implemented clumsily, supported by an unsupported store, updated haphazardly at a pace that makes enterprise scream bloody murder… and all Microsoft does is trying to trick more users into accidentally updating.

What are they thinking? They can do better than this. Much, much better.


Full Disclosure: I worked at M$ from 2014-2015.

MS has some very talented programmers. They're not very common, but they exist. The problem is that the entire company is completely and totally focused on developing an absurd number of new features and products, giving them completely unrealistic deadlines, and then shipping software on those deadlines no matter how half-assed or buggy it is.

The idea is that everything is serviceable over the internet now, so they can just "fix it later", except they never do. This perpetuates a duct-tape culture that refuses to actually fix problems and instead rewards teams that find ways to work around them. The talented programmers are stuck working on code that, at best, has to deal with multiple badly designed frameworks from other teams, or at worst work on code that is simply scrapped. New features are prioritized over all but the most system-critical bugs, and teams are never given any time to actually focus on improving their code. The only improvements that can happen must be snuck in while implementing new features.

As far as M$ is concerned, all code is shit, and the only thing that matters is if it works well enough to be shown at a demo and shipped. Needless to say, I don't work there anymore.


It's not just Microsoft, but this "update culture" is pervasive in software today. New features make for exciting marketing but in the end what most users probably want more is stability. All the stories of forced updates and accompanying reboots (with not even a chance to save work?) remind me of the old criticisms of Windows being so unstable it needs to be rebooted frequently, and how uptime was a highly-valued result of good system design.

I personally think near-daily updating to fix bugs that should've been discovered and fixed before actually shipping product is absurd. It's been argued that this is because systems are more complex now, but maybe we don't actually need all that complexity...


Most users say they want stability but when it comes to actually paying, unfortunately most users will only pay for features, especially new shinny ones that demo well. This is the challenge faced by software companies.


I buy a product or, more often than not nowadays, pay for a service for the features.

I keep using the product/service if it's stable. I have no use for a service with loads of nice features that don't work.


Only that you only pay once for an OS, so by the time you realise many features are buggy, you can't just unpay.


I pay twice the price of the hardware to be able to use Mac OS X, which is stable. Except, since 10.10, it kernel-panics once a week. I'd pay 100-200€ per year for a good OS.


It's a very, very long shot, but could it be that you have virtualbox 4 installed?

With 10.10 and 10.11 I had the same issue, caused by the kext from virtualbox. Removing it and installing version 5 solved everything and haven't had a kernel panic since then.

If not virtualbox, I'd look at other kext you might have there.


End users have (mostly) never paid for operating systems. I use Windows mostly because that's what the applications I use require. There's nothing about Windows itself that is compelling and frankly, Windows has been good enough for a long, long time.

I really wish Microsoft had stayed the course and maintained separate desktop and mobile operating systems. Windows CE had problems, but they could have fixed that without messing with Windows.


Yeah. Everyone needs to justify their existence. While quite a lot of people thought Win7 was great and that Microsoft should just stop there, maybe with a few minor improvements (e.g. fix CMD.EXE), they decided to completely change it in response to the tablet "threat".

I have a cheap Win8 tablet. It's weird. Quite slick in a lot of ways, but you can go back to the old UI and see where all the bodges are.


If I have a choice of buying Windows 7 or Windows 10, I will pick Windows 7. Does that mean I'm paying for stability?


I develop daily on Windows and Visual Studio. The latest versions of both are so horribly unstable and buggy that our team's productivity is being seriously damaged. What the hell happened to Microsoft's quality control? In Windows 7 and earlier versions of Visual Studio you didn't feel like you were walking on thin ice all the time.


One has to wonder if maybe all those laid-off STEs and SDETs were actually adding value after all....


Not buying your argument.

Mac is a much more viable choice today than in the past, and I think the Mac's slowly but steadily increasing market share has something to do with the perceived reliability and stability of the platform.

I'm only basing this off of personal experience. I have Windows at work and Mac at home.


I'm sorry, if we're talking about features being buggy, OS X is not something you exactly what to point a finger at as a good example of an OS that has features implemented in a stable way.

Thankfully, OS X is cheap/free. I use OS X, Windows, and Arch literally every day of my life, both at work and home.

To be quite honest, I blame consumers for all this non-sense. No one wants to actually pay for software. I can go into this in a more nuanced fashion, but I seriously think software across the board is a good bit cheaper than it needs to be. From OS's to games and everything in between.


I have personally found OS X to be extremely buggy, but I agree that the perception of stability (and security!) have increased its adoption.


I would definitely agree with that as well.


OS X is not cheap, and definitely not free. The price is factored into the laptop.

This is not some pedantic arm-chair econ101 argument; they are able to charge a higher price due to having OS X as part of the product, and they do.

Arch is actually for free.


>they are able to charge a higher price due to having OS X as part of the product, and they do.

That's a suspect claim. I am not saying the cost isn't accounted for, but claiming that they charge a premium simply because they have OS X is dubious at best. I don't consider OS X a selling point in any regard and I'm not sure even Apple could. Of course this is largely my opinion. I would find it kind of funny if they really considered it a selling point.


I always thought that having OSX sorta was the selling point. If I'm only comparing computers just based on the parts inside them and their capability then there's little to no reason for me to buy an Apple computer because other than some sorta neat things like the hybrid drives or some of the Thunderbolt integration, they're generally much more expensive than building or buying another computer.

But for people who value specific software that is OSX-only or some of the features only found in OSX (like CoreAudio for music stuff) or the general interface polish and perceived stability, it doesn't matter if the Apple option costs $2000 and the other brand/build with similar core components costs $1000. If it doesn't run the platform you want/need then it doesn't matter that it's more bang for the buck.

Basically I default to Windows because for the things I do on a computer, it's got the most flexibility and options for hardware and software. Linux is missing too many applications I need/want and OSX only runs on machines that cost a good deal more while offering nothing I really need enough to justify the cost. But when I've needed or wanted to run an OSX application in the past (Final Cut Pro in my case several years ago) it just wasn't a question. The stuff I wanted to run and the hardware I needed to hook up required OSX so that's the only reason I shelled out for an Apple computer. If I could have done it without OSX I'd have saved the dough and put it into something else.


I can't help but avoid but sound like an Apple marketing drone, but hardware wise quite a few the selling points for me for a MBP have been the form factor and how "it all fits together." Personally, there still isn't really a comparable windows-esque laptop from any other manufacturer that makes me not want to rip my hair out when I'm using their product. I enjoy the weight and weight distribution of the laptop, the keyboard is okay, the trackpad should be the target of corporate espionage, etc etc. And it certainly looks nice.

Admittedly, a good selling point for OS X is how well it handles the hardware -- the battery life is consistent and lasts long enough for my needs. I definitely use OS X more often when I'm traveling, and will relegate my development to that environment just to make sure the battery lasts.

The software ecosystem is definitely a selling point for some. I am not involved in multimedia production but I certainly can appreciate paying a premium amount to get the tools you want/need. Although whether this aspect can be fundamentally attributed to the OS or just a product of other things (audience, marketing, corporate deals, etc) is another conversation.


Well without OSX a macbook pro is just another Intel laptop. And I've seen them with Linux installed, and using bootcamp variations of Windows. But OSX is certainly part of the appeal.


Most of the people who own Macs got them because of OS X. It helps that the hardware is quite good, all in all, and for that you can also charge a premium. But if Apple stopped developing OS X and just sold MacBooks with Windows preinstalled, I think their sales would decline drastically; if they ported OS X to regular PCs and sold it seperately, their computer business would probably take a large hit, too.


It's non-zero, but essentially right next to zero, the number of people buying Macs who do not at all run OS X. So yes, it's bought as a whole, people want the product experience, the integration of hardware and software. That's why they buy it. If they really didn't care about OS X, or really didn't care (a lot) about industrial design they'd buy something else. And on industrial design, Dell's XPS 13 is neck and neck (bit better in some spots and not as good in others) with the Air.


> I would find it kind of funny if they really considered it a selling point.

Good point, but I'm trying to stay completely agnostic of what Apple thinks: it's not Apple's cost that determines the price of a macbook (aside from setting a lower bound), it's what people are willing to pay.

I assume that people are willing to pay significantly more for macbooks in this universe, than in the parallel one where they have no OS. At least as much more as it costs Apple to develop it in the first place.

You are right, though, that I can hardly "claim" it :)


There's got to be something that's jacking up the price of a MacBook to 2-3x the cost of an otherwise component-identical Windows box.

It's either OSX, or it's that shiny Apple logo


They most definitely do not have identical components. I am not sure why you think this is the case.


I'm always a bit shocked when I see people express this. I work in a office with roughly 100 macs and 100 windows. The macs are FAR more stable and less buggy. I've had this experience three different times at various companies. Yet online I see people saying that OS X is just as buggy but they never point what part is.


Well, for example, with the most recent updates I had problems with wifi stability and thunderbolt peripherals not working properly. They've been fixed now, but it's still kind of surprising they creep up given the limited amount of hardware the OS has to target.


Are the macs running the latest version of OSX? From what I've read and experienced, OSX declined in quality when Apple stopped charging for OSX and started using it to drive hardware upgrades. These days OSX works fine if you have the latest, greatest, most expensive Mac hardware but if you try to upgrade an existing machine, that's when you get errors.


I have the latest 15 inch MBP.


I use to love the Mac and OSX, but the whole freezing up while spinning a colored ball thing has got me too pissed off to use a Mac any more. I switched to Linux a year ago and only use Windows for playing games. As for the increasing market share, I think that's more of the perceived coolness factor of a Mac. But man, I love the MBP keyboard! I can't wait to try a Happy Hacker 2.


My mom (55 yo) always tries to get me into her computer buying arguments with my dad. She recently called me and stated "Macs never break compared to windows, so I should get a mac." I use Linux almost exclusively these days, so I can't really comment, but anecdotally speaking Apple seems to be known for it's reliability (at a cost) to at least some people.


To add to your point, Valve and Jetbrains both seem to be suffering from exactly this. Do you think it is Agile gone too far? Minimal viable product being too broadly scoped? Modern programming culture / lack of resources?


Yes, I can also see that happening in many other companies. I think that this urge on putting something new out quickly (Innovation?), regardless of being stable or not, is what they think they can win market with. And sure they can.


This might be yet another enterprise trap set-up by the fact that the people deciding what software to buy are different the people paying for the software and different from the people using the software.

The problem is that Windows isn't a purely enterprise product. Although it gets little money from the end user market, it needs dominance on that market for strategic reasons. So, MS will ensure it dominates end user market, whatever it takes.


Yup, It is a way to add more 'perceived value' than there actually is. Lowering the investment required for creating something that _seems_ worthy enough for people to buy it.

From a customer perpective, it looks like an evil spiral more and more companies tend to fall into.

Edit: wording


I really agree with this. But I have to say it's not just companies. Look at the fast pace of open source software, web frameworks, etc.

So much focus on "getting there quickly." A few keystrokes and a marketing page, and everyone's using "Foo.js" v0.0.1.

And then you're spending time as a developer dealing with deprecations because APis changed.

But as painful as that is, I believe we need external feedback to deliver better software. Trying a thing, seeing how it's used, and improving it is a good way to go.

It is just going to result in bad times in the short term.


Bah, you think that's bad? Currently there's a nasty bug in iOS 9.2 where any webpage with an overflow:hidden style in the body tag will cause the viewport to be way too large, and consequently the webpage zooms out to far too large a size.

Apple can't fix this until the next update, yet it's a problem in Safari. Now we have to wait till the next update to fix a pretty bad problem.

You can see this, incidentally, if you browse to Libreoffice's opengrok.


Why do you refer to MS as M$? In my experience the people who do that are far from the people who worked or would work at MS.

https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/07/22/m


I only started referring to MS as M$ after I had been working there for a year. I joined them with cautious optimism, because the new CEO had finally gotten rid of that atrocious stack ranking system.

That optimism did not last long. I only stayed there as long as I did because of how much they were paying me. Referring to them as "M$" is disturbingly appropriate given that all they do is to throw huge amounts of money at problems until they go away.

After seeing what goes on inside that company, I immediately tried to move to Linux, but it just isn't practical (http://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.th...). At the very least, I won't be upgrading to Windows 10 until 2020.


Have you ever seen how much Microsoft will pay you? Those sort of people often end up as very good programmers. Not that surprised that people in this camp end up working at Microsoft and then quit because they don't like working there.


I think it's largely a dog fooding problem. Visual Studio is a superb piece of software, and you can tell that its designers are the primary users. Microsoft's consumer apps are awful.


Visual Studio is superb? It's still a 32-bit app that crashes in daily usage.


In comparison to other IDEs it is superb.

As far as the 64/32 bit argument, it's pretty absurd. What are the benefits of going 64 bit? More memory consumption? (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ricom/archive/2015/12/29/revisiting-...)

What types of apps are you developing in Visual Studio? It's my daily driver and crashes very rarely for me.


That's fair (re: 64-bit) and I'll amend: VS2015 should be able to handle a solution with (say) 1,000 projects without crashing. If that can be done in 32 bits, hurrah.


its not that uncommon to find VS solution files consisting of 100+ projects, especially in finance. The most I've worked on was 132 projects in a single solution (roughly a third were test projects). It was slow and sluggish at times but still workable nevertheless...


Wow, I'm impressed! What do you work on where 1,000 projects in a solution is a thing? With just one developer per five projects you've got a team of 200 developers. What are you working on? Please give us a few details.


I'm working on a legacy desktop app (~25 years), currently around 600 projects. Maybe one developer per 7 projects. Common workflow is to create custom solutions around your working set of projects, but that's not ideal for whole code analysis/debugging.


Have you guys heard of "libraries"? Having that much source code open at once when I bet 90% rarely needs to be analyzed/parsed is insane.

It always amazes me how someone can say "x sucks" and never question their own insane workflow.


Does that mean that there's a lot of duplicate projects? It seems like there's an opportunity for consolidation. I've seen a few solutions where a developer created a Project for every class library and then only ever referenced them from 1 other Project. I was able to roll up a 30+ project solution into 5.


this seems like a nightmare.

why couldn't you break it out into separate solutions and reference versioned dll's?


We had ~150 projects across about 1M LOC and 4 developers because they were being used like folders - they weren't really separate codebases, just a means of organising the code. We cut that down for a drastic improvement in speed.


> In comparison to other IDEs it is superb.

I thought most serious users of VS had to install ReSharper on top of it?


Most "serious" users are now uninstalling ReSharper. Visual Studio 2015 adds most of ReSharper's key perks and JetBrains has done little or nothing to resolve ReSharper's laggy/hoggy/unstable code (and has said they aren't going to re-write it for Roslyn).

Honestly back in VS 2010 I'd call ReSharper a core tool. In VS 2015, eww.


Thanks, appreciated. I honestly thought it still was like this.


I've never liked ReSharper, have felt that the "advice" it offers is often over-rated and seems commonly to be wrong for C# (not unexpected given that JetBrains primarily focuses on Java outside of ReSharper, I feel like ReSharper is a Java developer's approach to C#). These days what's baked into VS and the Roslyn compiler platform blows ReSharper out of the water.

Just about everyone I've worked with that had daily complaints about how slow and laggy they felt Visual Studio was didn't seem to understand that ReSharper was 99% of the slow-down, excessive memory use, and UX lag...


I never liked it either, but I've worked in places where it was like the eleventh commandment and you better not say anything against it! :) I'm glad to hear it's loosing popularity.


I guess I'm not a serious user then because I've never used ReSharper anywhere I've worked.


Not moving to 64 bit has been a pragmatic decision [1]. As for crashing, I used it for over 10 years at my previous company and it never crashed once. At my current company it only crashes when I am using the Stylevision plug-in, which is really, really, buggy.

[1] http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ricom/archive/2009/06/10/visual-stud...


That pragmatic decision was made 7 years ago. A lot has changed since then and I don't think the arguments hold up. What developer machine doesn't have at least 16 GB of RAM these days?


And they have current benchmarks that indicate that it's still the right decision: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ricom/archive/2015/12/29/revisiting-...


Thanks for posting that (although I didn't see any benchmarks).

My big problem with the first article was that in my experience, the extra registers available in 64-bit make all the difference in the world. In the comments for the article you posted, he says that isn't true with VS. Surprising, but I'll take his word for it.

Still, it bothers me that he keeps talking about 4 GB of code and data should be enough. VS becomes pretty unusable for me around 1.5 - 2 GB. If it worked reliably up to the 4 GB limit, I'd be happier.


The limit is usually address space fragmentation and at one point not being able to find a piece of memory large enough for an allocation. Depending on the allocation patterns this may happen around 3 GiB but for some applications even around 1.7 GiB already. VS gets unbearably slow around 2 GiB memory, though, most likely because the native allocator has to piece together all free pieces of memory again and in the managed part the GC probably has fun trying to compact memory.


Me. I'm still rocking 4 gigs.


Did you even read the article? The arguments still hold up. It's clearly the case that it's not worth the effort to move VS to 64-bit.

- "First, from a performance perspective the pointers get larger, so data structures get larger, and the processor cache stays the same size. That basically results in a raw speed hit..."

- "The cost of a full port [due to the amount of code involved, not the quality of the code] of that much native code is going to be quite high and of course all known extensions would break and we’d basically have to create a 64 bit ecosystem pretty much like you do for drivers. Ouch."

- "A 64 bit address space for the process isn’t going to help you with page faults except in maybe indirect ways, and it will definitely hurt you in direct ways because your data is bigger...32 bit processes accrue all these benefits just as surely as 64 bit ones."


I know there's a strong VS counterjerk, but nothing else comes close. I've been using it for years and all of its crashes have been 100% my fault.

I know IntelliJ is great, and JetBrains in general rocks, but it's no contest.


> all of its crashes have been 100% my fault.

Wait, what? Why is it okay if a program crashes at all?


... can you show me a program you've written that accepts complex developer input and literally never crashes?


Microsoft shouldn't be held to the same quality standards as a hobby programmer.


Okay, but what I'm saying is that you are holding them to an impossible standard. If you believe perfect programs exist, I've got news for you.

Development environments in particular may have to crash sometimes in order to prevent the user from wrecking everything else on the system.


OK then let's compare VS to XCode, which doesn't even have half the features of VS and crashes twice as much. If not, which comparable product would you pick?


Running tons and tons of VS instances while debugging broken, memory hogging programs, modifying the XML for weird project types for third party plugins poorly, etc. Things that MS really can't do anything about.


I've never seen a GUI form builder that really worked that well, but the WinForms and especially WPF builders are huge dogs.

Less said about the old-fashioned WebForms GUI, the better...


I would have agreed that it's a good product right up to Visual Studio 2013. But Visual Studio 2015 is slow, buggy and unstable. They really have screwed something up, it has been months, and the update pack they released didn't make any tangible improvements. Meanwhile the "extensions and updates" area just continues to push Microsoft products I don't need, and every now and then I am not allowed into the IDE because my license has "gone stale". Everyone in my team has daily crashes, bugs and slowdowns and it is hurting us. How can Microsoft not have found any of these issues during all their testing?


I've been using various versions of Visual Studio since 1999. I can count on one hand the number of times it has crashed, usually coincident with me doing something unwise.


Most things in VS run in-process (that was the case circa mid-2000s, at least). It only takes one bad component to bring the whole thing down, and there are many, many, many components.


IME, Visual Studio crashes are almost always due to misbehaving plugins. I'm in it all day every day, and once or twice a week it will develop some quirk that requires a restart to fix, but I can't remember the last time it actually crashed. The only plugins I run are Resharper, Xamarin, and PTVS.


Daily?

VS2015 hasn't locked up on me in a couple of days. ;-)

Even with locking up once or twice a week, it's pretty awesome.


I've never experienced VS crashing, but Intellisense stops working EVERY time I use VS! :)


i'm not sure what you are doing wrong. i use it 8 hours every day and this does not happen.


Funny though that Visual Studio insists on defaulting to upper case menus. That must be a decision forced on them by a PHB somewhere, which just tells you that nobody is immune from the organizational rot.


Oh, I positively lurve the Microsoft design team's justification for all caps:

When we shared the RC design preview with you, we expected the uppercase menu would generate mixed feedback and emotions. We had seen similar reactions from early adopters and from our own internal users prior to posting about it. [1]

So then they said they had been "thinking about it" (why a lot of thinking was necessary is beyond me), and that "using uppercase for the menus was not an arbitrary decision" because they needed "to keep Visual Studio consistent with the direction of other Microsoft user experiences".

Then they tried to say that "some of you" won't like the change and that these people have "been very direct in expressing your opinions on this subject".

In other words: they got told it was an absolutely awful decision from the very start by beta testers and their own test team, but ignored it because, well, "consistency". Then they released it and they got almost total user revolt, but they can't back out now because, well, "consistency". But they now allow you to change to letter case with a registry tweak, after all - Microsoft know better than their end users, even when those end users are screaming for them to change a fairly fundamental UX error.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/06/05/a-de...


Visual Studio 2015 does not have upper case menus.


That's good news! I'm still on 2013 for now.


And an all grey interface. Which the visual studio team managed to reverse partially. The Windows 10 team: not so lucky...


i actually like the uppercase menus.


You are very much in the minority.


There is a very interesting book, "I Sing The Body Electronic" by Fred Moody, who had the opportunity to observe a team at Microsoft very intimately over the course of a project. Back then, apparently part of the problem was that good managers were very rare, and as the company grew and grew, they put people in management positions that were not really qualified for (or comfortable with) the job.

Deadlines appear to have been a problem back then, as well.

I have wondered, how much of that has changed since. From your description, not much... :(


I also previously worked for Microsoft (Azure Active Directory). We took code quality very seriously. All new features required at least 80% code coverage from tests before commit (not a particularly high bar, but a pragmatic one). New features also required a test plan + review covering stress/perf, unit, integration, & system tests. Many features required threat models which were reviewed with the security team.

Progress/bugs were reviewed weekly at ship room. Live site issues were reviewed the next morning (involving the relevant on-call engineers).

So as with any large company which isn't a monoculture, things vary from team to team.

Also, calling them "M$" in 2016?


So, Microsoft has forgotten the concept of technical debt? That's hilarious. Also sad. Wasn't it Joel Spolsky (a former Microsoft employee) who actually coined the term "technical debt"?


Ward Cunningham coined the term "technical debt" according to Wikipedia. He worked for Microsoft for a short period of 2003-2005, but this was long after the term was invented.


What do you think about http://www.networkworld.com/article/2866286/microsoft-subnet...

I suspect the culture still exist today.


Agreed. I was bugged by several 'system notifications' the other day on my Win 10 laptop (it took focus over my RDP client in full screen, too) that various people were trying to add me to Skype, and that I needed to sign into Skype to fill in some details they wanted about something.

Thing was, I'd never installed Skype on the system or even signed into it for several years, and here it was out of the blue asking me to accept friend invites from a bunch of spammers. It's now part of the "desktop experience" built in I guess (it may have to do with using a Microsoft account vs. purely local account, in my discussions with others).

The feeling is I don't really have control over the OS anymore, so I think it's time to move on soon to alternatives.


> The feeling is I don't really have control over the OS anymore

This is a really good way to describe modern non-free OSes (Windows, OSX, Android, iOS, the gamut). They're all asking me to sign into their services and always be connected and let them monitor everything I do and make suggestions and store everything I own on their servers. And when you try to turn all that off, everything falls apart. This is OK on my phone, which is really just an Internet portal, but on my desktop I expect my stuff to be my stuff. I guess many consumers like this (?), but I sure don't.

These days, I use Arch Linux and laugh haughtily at the crap proprietary OS users have to put up with.


While you're mentioning Skype, fun fact: since Windows 8 (or 8.1, not sure), there's absolutely no freaking way to sign into Skype with a local account. Like, at all. You just can't use it what so ever unless you log in with your Windows account.

EDIT: about this:

> The feeling is I don't really have control over the OS anymore, so I think it's time to move on soon to alternatives.

I had the same feeling since Windows 8, then I moved to Linux-based distributions. Never regretted it. I still have to deal with Windows when someone at work screws something up with their computer, but that's about it.


Windows now comes packaged with a version of skype that uses their 'app' system. You can still get their non-app version on the site. That version allows you to sign in to whatever user you want - it's not tied to your windows account.

http://www.skype.com/en/download-skype/skype-for-computer/

Though I agree that skype and windows have some serious user experience issues.


Yes, you can tell the difference in search because one has a solid background and one has the blue Skype symbol in the background.

wish I was kidding


While we're bitching about Skype, let's talk about how it monopolizes port 80, for no good apparent reason.

Super fun when you're trying to do a Skype call with a remote coworker and debug a web server at the same time.


I haven't used Windows 8 much, but I do run Skype on my family Windows 10 PC. Microsoft has stopped updating the Skype Metro app. Users are encouraged to upgrade to 'classic' desktop app - which is what I have.

The desktop app does not pick up your Windows login - you actually have to log in and ask Skype to remember your credentials. This works on local user accounts as well as accounts authenticated with a Microsoft account.


> You just can't use it what so ever unless you log in with your Windows account.

Try downloading Skype Portable. My Skype account is still just a username (not tied to either a Microsoft or Facebook account) and works great without any integration into the OS.


I bought a new machine with Windows 10 for my kids the other day. It has secure boot, which is fine. Via procexp (part of SysInternals) I checked the signatures of the running processes. Only skypehost and ias (some intel security app) did not have verified signatures.

Not sure what to make of this.


I've had to uninstall Skype on Windows a bunch of times because it defaults to install it in Windows update. You can hide the update, which I finally did. Very annoying.


Although Windows 10 on desktop is a bit of a mess, the Mobile edition is much worse.

Microsoft is now selling Lumia phones with Windows 10 Mobile, but even Windows Central thinks it's not ready:

"I'm relatively savvy with this stuff. But I was ready to throw it out of a window before someone pointed out the non-obvious thing that I needed to do. This wasn't the only piece of out-of-box jank, either, to which I was told a new firmware update should 'fix' most of. It then took 48 hours for the firmware update to show up, download and install to the phone."

http://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft-lumia-550-review

It's a real shame. Windows Phone 7/8 was so great because it was like an Apple product done better than Apple: it didn't have "kitchen sink" features, but instead everything just worked and was holistically designed. In the original WP7 design, the borders between apps and the OS were faded to a degree that's unique. (This design was eventually lost as Windows Phone tried to catch up with app-oriented mobile rivals.)

In Windows 10 Mobile, everything has been rewritten as Universal Windows 10 apps that sort of look like the WP8 equivalents but work much worse (because they're really desktop apps squeezed onto a phone).

That kind of endless strategy-driven software rewrites are the plague of Microsoft today. The OP who is disillusioned with Windows Store mentions that the Store Dashboard got much worse when Windows 10 came around. Why? Who knows -- probably somebody at MS just decided that the Dashboard needs to be implemented using hot tech X rather than stale old tech Y.

This endless churn sucks and drives customers away. I quit using Windows Phone for good last year, mostly due to the customer-hostile Windows 10 plan and lack of new hardware. Can't say I've regretted it so far.


> In Windows 10 Mobile, everything has been rewritten as Universal Windows 10 apps that sort of look like the WP8 equivalents but work much worse (because they're really desktop apps squeezed onto a phone).

The even sadder thing is that when I tried using Windows 10 as my main OS for a while all the Windows 10 apps felt like phone apps stretched out to work on a desktop.


My experience going from wp8 on a lumia 920 to wp10 on a lumia 950 is that mail, calendar and settings got better, the browser is a wash trading improved site compatibility for worse battery life, and everything else that changed got worse. The wp of old was slow to update, but it was rock solid and highly usable. The new one not so much with crashes, slowdowns and battery drain issues all over. For what i paid for this phone i could have picked any android phone. I probably should have.


They been battling the battery issue over several of the latest builds and its not working. I upgraded to WM 10 on my Lumia Icon and its been a mess.

8 and 8.1 were stable and snappy. 10 has been a nightmare for me. The UI is nearly unusable and clunky. Just to do simple things, I have two, sometimes three additional clicks to get where I want to go. Even with successive builds my Lumia still freezes, crashes and restarts A LOT.

A typical example was this week. Went to my nieces hockey game with a full battery. Went to take a video, it started recording, then froze, then restarted (crashed). I thought, "Well, that sucks." It reboots, I try again, same thing. Then when my phone restarts, and I get the warning, "Your battery is critically low, please plug in."

I decided this week I'm going back to Android, Windows Mobile 10 at this point is almost unusable for me.


Many people say that the problem with Windows Phone is that there are no apps, but the OS is crap as well.


The OS was good around the 8.0 time frame, reliable and highly usable. Not the whack-a-mole app dance that is iOS, and not the byzantine maze of android. The changes in 8.1 I did not care for, it made things more like iOS / android but at least the OS remained reliable. It seems like MS thought about the phone and what their strengths were, and decided to get rid of them.


I must be the only one that cares about design, because the inconsistencies they introduced in margins, dialogs, style of buttons, etc. in 8.1 really grinded my gears.


Personally I think the OS is great. The problems are all on the app side.


Wow. I totally get your point, however it used to be that the OS was simply a platform to USE apps with which you do actual work. We've come a long way to this distorted weird dysfunctional belief ...


I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this - I keep finding bits in W10 which seem like a student's half-finished project - the print dialog in Edge's PDF reader was the latest mess I found after a recent update. I detest the UI, it's horribly unfriendly (to my eyes, anyway), and the fact that when I keyword search for an app I use every day (Notepad++) I usually get Notepad as a suggestion before it shows there's something wrong, to me.

I guess part of the problem is that Windows 7 had reached the same plateau as Word had - it does everything most people need and there's no real reason to upgrade, and that MS wants to grab a part of the app/user data market so has tried to shoehorn all that into the mess left by the "windows will be the new IOS" debacle that was Windows 8.


If some person seriously wants to dedicate their life to building something high quality and long lasting in the software world (1), they're probably interested in building and contributing to open source, open standards, open interfaces, publishing papers etc.

This might mean they would not want to dedicate their efforts to working on Windows. Same would hold for things like iOS as well. To me, architecturally, they seem dead ends that have to be completely binned at some point, leaving little useful legacy. Would you like to really put your life work into something like that, if there are alternatives?

I think this must affect the culture, and the people they can hire.

I have no idea how "open" Windows is nowadays, I haven't really used it in 8 years.

1: not necessarily building software directly, it can be algorithms, books, philosophies, languages etc.


If some person seriously wants to dedicate their life to building something high quality and long lasting in the software world (1), they're probably interested in building and contributing to open source, open standards, open interfaces, publishing papers etc.

"Interested in" and "can get paid for" are two very different things. Microsoft have a big reliable revenue stream.

The weird thing is that there are clearly some people inside Microsoft that "get it". There's a big open push from the C#/Roslyn team. F# is pretty sophisticated. Microsoft Research are the Xerox Parc of our time: lots of great ideas few of which make it into production.

But the Win8/8.1/10 cycle has so clearly been driven by panic over tablets and phones that it's produced strange chimerical half-solutions.


I must admit I was a little surprised when I first powered up my Surface pro. I had not used a windows machine since the early days on windows 7 but needed to start at least looking at my games on windows to make sure it worked there as well.

It's rough.

I really like some of the new apps designed for touch, but where are the rest? There is no file browser for example?

OMG the default explorer window is a mess of icons.


> It's crazy just how… unfinished everything involving Windows 10 seems to be

This is how the start up world functions. Ship early, ship fast and fix things later. Microsoft is changing how they operate and are more in tuned with the rest of the world. Why the outrage when this same concerns applies to most the software we see here on HN?


Right, that's how startups work. And that's why enterprises rarely buy software or services from startups. Microsoft is expected to be able to produce something more polished and reliable.


But everyone complained that Microsoft was slow to change and adopt the new software practices that the world wanted. Can't have your cake and eat it too. I agree the enterprise-y applications need more polish and stability but MS needed a massive change quickly and this is it.


Linux distros like Ubuntu and Debian address this issue by offering different update streams so you can choose whether you want all the latest stuff or a more stable experience. Microsoft could do something similar, but they're lacking the "stable" option since the big push to Windows 8 and 10.


I have a surface tablet, and I love it as a device and Win10 is definitely a great step in fusing desktop and tablet UI... But there are some serious head-slappers. When running in"tablet mode" many apps open in the background invisibly, only accessible through the task-switcher button. Without even a taskbar you can't even know that anything happened at all.


my favourite is the update virus/spyware protection notification that you have to open and click manually to update like it's 1997 every time


Do you have Windows Update turned off or set to not automatically update, by chance? Windows Defender automatic updates come across Windows Update.


Is this due to a lawsuit in the EU or someplace that requires Microsoft to specifically to ask the end user for permission to update/install files on the user's machine? This might not be on Microsoft.


Is there such a thing? I don't think so - last time I checked, there was about 6 GB of MS-supplied malware trying to download and install itself on eeeeeeeeevery Win7 computer through Windows Update (where not prevented by technical means such as GPO or GWX Control Panel). So no, that's either a) a fictional requirement, or b) ignored by MS.


>requires Microsoft to specifically to ask the end user for permission to update/install files on the user's machine?

They're certainly not doing this with Windows 10.


Wow, as I Microsoft hater I kind of laugh when I read this. My opinion of Windows has always been low.

Unfortunately, somewhere over the years I came to realize that the entire industry is really being hurt my Windows consumers dragging their feet about upgrading browsers and operating systems. Microsoft might be rushing too fast but you're probably still better off moving forward with them.

75% of iOS users are on Apple's latest major release. That's worth a lot. If 75% of Windows users were on 10, the Windows community would be much better off. I'd say ignore the perceived warts and get behind upgrading.


> 75% of iOS users are on Apple's latest major release.

That's because wealthier people tend to keep up with the latest technology. And Apple has always made a conscious decision to target the wealthier customers.

Walk into any Best Buy and compare prices for Apple machines against the likes of Dell, Asus, Acer, and such.

Poor people buy cheap because of need and upgrade only when things stop working. Rich people are more likely to buy to optimize the and share the latest and greatest experience.


I'm not totally sure about your statement here, but it only really serves to reinforce what was just stated.

People who are picky about their tech (like those of us here on HN) are going to complain about the lack of control and forced updates. However, the population you're describing can only really stand to benefit from it all, since they do a poor job of updating on their own.


I see more poor people with the latest iPhones and Macbooks than wealthier individuals


Where do you live? Maybe that has something to do with it?

I help support an app with just a few thousand users (US and Canada). It's about 9 years old but still actively updated. Coincidentally, it's user base is decidedly poorer people. In the years I've been involved there have only been a handful of people running macs and about the same number running Linux. Easily 99 percent run Windows. XP was most common until last year when Windows 7 finally took over. The first Win 10 users are just starting to show up.

My (admittedly limited) experience is just the opposite of yours.


I guess the plan is to just keep making "improvements" witch works well for keeping the platform fresh and interesting. Then monetizing it along the way. It's also nice that it will be able to run everywhere and a "Windows" app will work on all "Windows" devices.


Well ... it is better than 8. A lot.


Maybe I'm in the minority, but I actually liked Windows 8.1 better than 10. It's hard for me to explain why, but Windows 10 gives me the feeling that I don't own the system - that Microsoft does and they're just letting me use it.


Windows 10 gives me the feeling that I don't own the system - that Microsoft does and they're just letting me use it.

The forced updates, meaning MS has the power to (and likely will) change your environment completely without your explicit consent? I completely agree. They've even stated a few times that Win10 is a "service" and not a "product".


If using a laptop or the like switch your WiFi connections over to metered connections.

My Surface Pro 4 was having stability issues when it slept, and updates seemed to be the issue. Switched over to metered connections and I haven't lost any work in weeks.

Doesn't work for desktops or the like with wired connections.


So it's got this malicious feature, but you can trick it into not working with some arcane (and conditional) configuration setting. I switched to Linux when XP started feeling too limiting, but this is just getting ridiculous. And without real pushback from the broader user base, odds are this is a trend that will continue.



"haven't lost any work in weeks..."

Wow! I guess that's a win... but wow....


I feel exactly the same. For me Win8.1 was the pinnacle of Windows. The whole "tile-world" part of the system was misguided but ignorable, and didn't harass anyone. Tile-world aside, it was one of the most stable and performant OSs I've used.

In comparison, Windows 10 makes my top-specced late 2013 Thinkpad feel like an overheating budget machine. All together I must have spent a few workdays trying to fix the machine, and despite being quite knowledgeable about Windows administration I'm still having performance issues and still have the feeling that the system really answers only to MS HQ, and has no intention of ceding control to its owner (me).


Just a thought...did you do an update or a full, clean reinstall of 10 over 8.1? From my anecdotal testing: 4 machines with update 8.1 -> 10. One was fine, the other 3 performed very poorly. Doing a clean install fixed my perf issues. The one that was fine had a almost stock (no additional software) install of 8.1 that was a few months old.


I have Windows 8.1

I also love playing some older games (right now I am in a SimCity 4 binge).

I am seriously considering the next time I buy a computer, to ditch windows entirely, and use only Wine, I am having in Windows 8.1 to put Wine DLLs in more and more game folders, also if you enter many serious gaming forums, people recommend you stick with Windows 7.

The reason is that Microsoft in their DirectX pushing tactics (that started when they said that WinXP would not be able to run DX10 features at all... despite hackers proving that it ca, also the Xinput vs DirectInput bullshit) they started to resort to stuff that sometimes I am not sure if is just bad coding or intentionally evil.

For example for SimCity 4: The game uses DirectX7 (yes, it is that old :( ), and relies heavily on DirectDraw (that I still think is one of the most awesome pieces of tech MS ever made), on Windows 8.1, DirectDraw is completely emulated, partially with software, partially with D3D (or OGL depending on some dll combinations you have), and in a crappily coded manner.

Wine ddraw.dll instead translate all DDraw calls to OpenGL equivalent in 2D, still is not perfect, but the different is obvious, DDraw games run like crap in Windows 8.1 native, and frequently run even better than when they were designed in first place when using Wine (be it in Linux, Mac or in Windows using Wine DLLs).

Another game that works in Windows 7, but not in 8.1 or 10 without Wine, is the RPG "Arcanum" from Troika Games, also for the same reason: it relies on DDraw, and Windows 8.1 onwards DDraw emulation is so bad that this game renders most of the screen black, or in a wonky manner.

So if I am using Wine, on Windows, more and more, why nose use Wine on a NIX anyway? Also many of the newer games have NIX support by default too (source engine games for example).

EDIT: a link to someone complaining of this issue on Microsoft forums: http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_8-g...


Then I'm part of that minority. I use Win 8.1 with classic button in a VM and it is a fast, stable Windows. Esp as a guest in a good OS.


My dad feels the same way only it's been this way since after 98.


How so?


The start menu.


Bullshit. Allow an actual user of Windows 10 to correct your statement, since I bet you haven't used it at all: Some things are unfinished. Mostly the consumer facing stuff (think Metro apps).

Other than that, Windows 10 has been rock solid for the past 8 months or so that I've been using it on my main workstation and my main tablet.


/r/sysadmin is full of Win10 horror stories for multi-user deployments in business environments. Your one anecdote just doesn't compare. I think Win10 is very undercooked, even by MS's standards. There are simply too many use cases where its a step down from Win7.

MS has more of less conceded that Win10 isn't business ready, so they have a special distribution called LTSB (Long Term Servicing Branch) of its Enterprise version. It doesn't auto-update, no feature updates, no cortana or edge, no support for app/modern apps, etc. Can you imagine windows 7 shipping with a lot of things stripped from it to make it more like XP? That would be crazy, but that's exactly what's going on here.

I think by 2017-2018 it'll be fine, but two or three years from release date to get something as stable as the previous versions seems really rough.


Right and last year it was full of Windows 8 horror stories and the years before that it was full of Windows 7 horror stories. In other news - StackOverflow.com is full of programming problems so programming must suck. Point being - /r/sysadmin is where people go to complain and ask questions.

Also, it's empirically verifiable, not an anecdote - that Windows 10 runs all the same apps that I've been able to run for decades on previous versions of Windows without issue. That's what I call rock solid.


As a steady reader or that sub, I can say Enterprise never got on the Win8 bandwagon and the reception to Win7 was a lot more positive. We barely had any issues with our migration to 7 and we did it same year release.

> /r/sysadmin is where people go to complain and ask questions.

That's /r/techsupport. This sub is supposed to be only IT pros. A lot of the issues I see are outside of the "I just need a facebook machine" use cases, so a home user like you may not ever have these issues, but trust me, your IT department sure as hell is having issues.


Sorry to disappoint you but I am my IT department and I'm not having any issues...and neither are the IT departments from several companies that I work with.

And as a steady reader of that sub and of the Microsoft multi-sub, I heartily disagree with your observation. Both Win7 and Win8 had loads of "horror stories", just like WinXP before it. People are pretty much going to complain about any new Windows version.


Internal testing with Win8, which is still in the casual testing stage of "lets see what breaks" has like 3+ showstoppers for us and a dozen bad but not showstopper issues. XP to 7 had zero.

That's ignoring the metro apps/store nonsense, which I imagine I would just disable outright when we launch with it.

I guess one could argue that 7 wasn't a "real OS" and just Vista SP3. Still, I think 10 took a lot of gambles and wasn't the refined and less tablety Win8 everyone thought it would be. It clearly was rushed to save MS's image.


As another Win 10 user, I agree with him.


Sounds like an early versions of iOS 7.


> They can do better than this. Much, much better.

No they can't. It's just your selective memory from the time they were a big-ass monopolist that sucked the life from any competing platform to the point where you had to use theirs.

Now, when you are used to high quality design injected by Apple and then refined by competition in the mobile space, your standards have went up so high that you simply can't go back to the half baked buggy interfaces that Microsoft has always produced. The older systems don't /seem that way/ because you are familiar with them.


>when you are used to high quality design injected by Apple

Hmm, people do like to glorify Apple. Just remember that Apple is the same company that told us we were holding the phone wrong and that included copy and paste after three iterations of the iPhone.


They surely can (at least they were). Using win7 right now and it's clear day&night difference how crappy the UI became


Also using win7 right now (at work). While the practical differences aren't huge, I personally find the UI of both windows 8.1 and windows 10 an improvement (after a few tweaks).


Sure, Windows was never the pinnacle of good, consistent design, but it was still a lot better than Windows 10 is. The last time I was this frustrated with a Windows version was Windows Me.


The worst thing in my experience about windows 8/windows 10 apps is that you cannot install apps from 3rd party sources. Sure you can install on a temporary/testing basis by signing in with a dev license, but you have to keep doing this every 3 months until microsoft decides to pull the plug.

This is a problem if you are writing an app for a client who doesn't want to publish on the app store. The only option is the very expensive and opaque volume-licensing program which is useless if your app won't have many activations anyway.

Ultimately Windows 8/10 is a closed platform similar to iOS. Are we as developers willing to pay 30% of our revenues to Microsoft when the day comes that UWP will replace .net/win32?


I find this trend of platforms becoming walled gardens very unpleasant. The whole idea that some entity has control over what you can run on your own hardware just doesn't feel right --- and more so, the fact that most people seem to be completely fine with it.

Windows, and DOS before it, used to be very open. Anyone could just download a compiler and create a binary, then use it themselves or share with everyone else. In fact you could even use the built-in debugger (DEBUG) to write tiny assembly-language utilities, and computer magazines --- not even developer ones, but regular ones like PC Mag --- would publish source code listings. Advanced users were also programmers, but there was no real distinction.

Now it seems even getting started writing some sort of program for your own system requires going through a huge amount of bureaucracy and could involve payment. The customary way of installing software has been termed "sideloading" and recommended against. There is a rising wall between "users" and "developers", making it harder for the former to become the latter.

I suppose Linux is more open, but there is still the very noticeable centralisation of app-store-like repositories, the discouragement of installing software via other means, and the bureaucratic process of getting software into those repositories.

Ostensibly, the whole reason for this is security, but it's easy to see other motivations. The idea that almost all users are completely stupid idiots who can't decide for themselves, and effectively locking them up so they can't do anything, is horrible for the continued advancement of computer literacy.

Certainly before and outside of these closed platforms there is malware and other threats, but there is also something closed platforms don't have, and which I think is also very important --- freedom.

Relevant story: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html


Indeed. I didn't realise how "open" microsoft's platform was until iOS/Android came along. Now the old open platform model looks to be fast disappearing without any protest from developers. 30% revenue share for something that was free until now is a big deal.

Regarding Linux, the centralisation is at least justified (convinience, security). Furthermore Linux provides full freedom to ignore/bypass it. Not true with iOS/Android/ Windows 10 UWP.


Just a bit confused, but are you saying Android isn't open? All you have to do to install third party apps on Android is un-check one box in the settings, under security (allow installation of apps from unknown sources) and find your apps through whatever means you prefer to the app store. There are third party app stores, or you can just download and install from a web link. Definitely not comparable to iOS.


Not all androids allow that though. Some manufacturer customizations turn that off.


Exactly. The Right to Tinker needs to be fundamental, especially with consumer/hobbyist machines (as opposed to corporate/enterprise ones). Mechanisms to secure and lock-down need to be opt-in (although it can and should be made very easy to use and seamless), and not the default, or the computer is just going to turn into a glorified TV, and not what it can be: an incredibly powerful tool.


> I suppose Linux is more open, but there is still the very noticeable centralisation of app-store-like repositories, the discouragement of installing software via other means, and the bureaucratic process of getting software into those repositories.

Not quite. What is recommended against, if at all, is installing directly from source. You're encouraged to build packages instead and use those. (And mainstream distributions have wrappers that let you build packages from arbitrary sources, if the developer doesn't provide packages for your distribution.)

It's like recommending Windows users to use .msi packages over copying files directly to %PROGRAMFILES%, which isn't the worst advice.


> What is recommended against, if at all, is installing directly from source.

Nonsense. There is a recommendation to leave /usr/{bin,include,lib,share} to the package manager, but the /usr/local prefix is specifically for locally managed installs.

    ./configure --prefix=/usr/local
Support for arbitrary prefix (such as $HOME) installs has always been possible, so you don't even need root to install from source:

    ./configure --prefix="${HOME}"
Also, the recommendation to keep /usr managed by the package manager is just that - a recommendation. It's probably a very good idea to use the package manager for those files, but it isn't a requirement. As you, the owner of the computer, still have ultimate control[1], you can install whatever you want wherever you want. It may not be a great idea unless you really know what you're doing, but freedom necessarily includes the freedom to shoot yourself in the foot.

[1] as opposed to MS asserting control by limiting how software can be installed, and the forced updates that change anything, uninstalling without your permission, and reset configuration options


Back in the day when I was using Slackware and configure-make-install-ing software I'd use checkinstall (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CheckInstall) so that I could ensure installations wouldn't leave stale files all over the system.

Now I've probably only got a handful of programs (from github) that are self compiled; instead I use Ubuntu and PPAs.


The $HOME/.local directory is made for home installs. I learned this not too long ago and it has been very useful ever since.


Well sort of. The custom for many, many years is to simply use $HOME as the prefix, and putting $HOME/bin in your $PATH. Avoiding those directories (and other stuff that was traditionally located directly in $HOME) was probably why the more recent "desktop environments" used $HOME/Desktop as their "top" directory for the GUI environment.

Later on, some people felt that all the configuration files in the home directory ($HOME/.rc and similar) was a mess, so the $HOME/.config was proposed as the "proper" location for configuration files. Of course, this just resulted in programs using both* directories, depending on when they were written.

Years later, in their usual over-engineered style, the freedesktop.org people later extended this idea into the XDG Base Directory Specification[1], which is where $HOME/.local enters the story. Of course, they don't actually specify it as a prefix suitable for use in "./configure --prefix=" (which would have made a lot more sense). The only define the share directory for use with XDG_DATA_HOME:

    $XDG_DATA_HOME defines the base directory relative to which user specific
    data files should be stored. If $XDG_DATA_HOME is either not set or empty,
    a default equal to $HOME/.local/share should be used. 
Of course, now you have to lookup the relevant environment variable and specify all the detailed directory options to autoconf if you want to actually support their spec, which probably looks something like

    # pick one
    PREFIX=$HOME
    #PREFIX=$HOME/.local

    ./configure --prefix="${PREFIX}" \
        --sysconfdir="${XDG_CONFIG_HOME:${HOME}/.config}" \
        --localstatedir="${XDG_CACHE_HOME}:${HOME}/.cache}" \
        --datarootdir="${XDG_DATA_HOME}:${HOME}/.local/share}"
XDG isn't a bad idea, but it's poorly specified and as that example shows, it can conflict with convention at times.

None of that makes $HOME/.local (or any other prefix) wrong - it's your homedir, you can organize it as you like. That's one of the nice features I really like about autoconf - it makes it very easy to install software anywhere you want, even unusual/non-standard locations.

[1] http://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-l...


> I find this trend of platforms becoming walled gardens very unpleasant.

So did all the open-source people. ;)


On Linux installing from source is not too uncommon, though, which helps keeping the distinction down.


Or e.g. installing the deb of Dropbox on Ubuntu.


It's possible to sideload apps on Windows 8 and above:

https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh852635.aspx

Or is that the volume licensing program option you mention? I'm not sure (never tried it).

Edit: sideloading seems much simpler in Windows 10: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh454036.aspx#Insta...


I remember studying the sideloading option a while back (for Windows 8) and finding out that it wouldn't work in our case for some reason (needed Windows 8 enterprise? need volume-licensing to procure sideloading key?). Am no longer sure, so i will revisit it. Thanks for suggestion.

Windows 10 does seem much simpler. Will have to try it out to be sure it works though. If they have removed the volume-licensing nonsense that would be a godsend.

update regarding windows 8 sideloading: Yep. After a cursory investigation, it seems that obtaining a sideloading key is the hard part- Its needs volume licensing involving purchasing a minimum of 100 keys for around 3000$ if i am not mistaken (https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12008252/sideloading-app...). I want to be sure so will look at it in more detail though.


> The worst thing in my experience about windows 8/windows 10 apps is that you cannot install apps from 3rd party sources.

I've been away from Windows for awhile so I just want to clarify this - when you say "apps", are you talking about all end-user applications? Or only some sort of desktop widget type system?


I think the poster is talking about programs using the new Microsoft application frameworks and provided through their app store. The older style "Win32" programs can be installed as they always were.


(Slightly anecdotal answer, but...)

Basically everything I used on Win7 works / can be installed just the same on Win10. .msi packages, Chocolatey packages, oddball Win32 apps I've found over the years, even portable programs that haven't been updated since XP. Only had one program mysteriously uninstalled itself when I made the move: IronRuby. I'm not sure if Windows Store apps can be sideloaded, but the only ones I have installed came installed by default. Easy to avoid.

(I'm largely expanding on what Santosh83 said in a sibling post.)


Applications. Apps seems to be the new word for applications.


Is it new? Weren't people taking about "Killer Apps" in the 80s?


Well, application programs? ;)


> Ultimately Windows 8/10 is a closed platform similar to iOS. Are we as developers willing to pay 30% of our revenues to Microsoft when the day comes that UWP will replace .net/win32?

That would explain the move to `offer' Windows 10. But I can't see .net/win32 being replaced before 10 years.


Maybe. But a lot could change in 10 years.

For example, UWP is the only serious contender for apps with a rich touch/gesture-based UI. Eventually microsoft will stop adding new features/APIs to other platforms in favour of UWP. For example they might decide not to port the latest DirectX version to .net/win32. That is usually how things play out.


You can sideloads apps without a dev license.


Windows 10 or Windows 8?

Regarding windows 8, its seems you need to purchase sideloading keys in bulk in order to do so, unless you are installing on windows 10 enterprise. If you can provide a method otherwise, that would be big help.

Windows 10 seems to be different (no sideloading key required?), but i haven't tried it out or investigated in detail.


If there was a really compelling reason to use the new app model over the old win32 desktop apps, I might care about this. For x32/x64 desktops and laptops, I don't see the point at all.

Maybe if I had a Windows tablet, apps might be reasonable, but alas, I only have the now-discontinued and never-really-supported Surface RT.


From the article: "Unless you know the exact name of my app, you won't find it."

His "Website constructor" app is in 3rd position when I search for "Website". Not that bad for such a generic keyword.

Also, I guess one thing with these apps is that the price range (between $12 and $20) is a quite high compared to the majority of the other apps on the store and (unfortunately?) a lot of people are not ready to buy apps >$2.

I guess that the store search algorithm depends on the conversion rate (people buying the app VS people trying it) and that conversion rate is probably pretty low, so maybe lowering the app price could lead to more sales and higher ranking.


Agreed. I see the same result. The search results are as I would expect. I understand there is an issue with languages and regions, maybe the OP's region is not US English. It would be interesting to see what other users' searches show from different regions.


It's just like every other new Microsoft product. They produce enough materiel to get something started -- lots of demos and howtos and samples -- all by Microsoft employees or surrogates -- and then they leave it for something else, and hope the world figures out the rest. They try to suck you in up front, and hope that you get committed enough to not leave when you discover the mess that's waiting for you behind the curtain.

I've come back to full-time Windows development after over a decade of PHP and Rails, and you could lift my experience with trying Entity Framework and lay it on top of these complaints, and not notice a difference.

I've always said this about Microsoft products: they make it really easy to get to 70% of what you want, and then make it nearly impossible to finish. There's a massive bend in the effort/results curve. With open source, it's more difficult in the early stages, but it's a steady progression to 90%, and then you have the tools to work out how to get exactly what you want, if you want to make the effort.


I use Chrome OS as my daily driver/recreational computer, and I work from the command line on FreeBSD and Linux machines during the day, so maybe I'm just out of touch with Windows, however:

My partner has a laptop with an Core i3 processor and above-average RAM, and is on the whole a beast compared to my Dell Chromebook 11. My partner upgraded to Windows 10 and I have since used it occasionally to check something here or whatever.

From a couple of admittedly brief sessions using it, I have noticed that Windows 10 seems extremely "laggy", for want of a better word, as though there is a 100ms delay between clicking something and that click registering. It's nimble enough at starting up, it's just interacting with the thing that seems to be slow.

Anybody else experience this, or am I just used to instant feedback from UI?


As a counter-anecdote (on a somewhat more powerful laptop, Core i7 with 8 GB of RAM and an SSD): I just upgraded from Windows 7 to 10 three days ago, and have been amazed at how much snappier everything seems. In particular, app switching and window resizing now seem smooth and instantaneous.


You are experiencing the effect of a fresh Windows installation.


It was an in-place upgrade on a 3.5-year-old installation of Windows 7.


I have the same experience as you, really impressed by how snappy Windows 10 is on my machine.


For a long time Microsoft was a monopoly and it shows.

Recently I contacted Microsoft technical support over a product that has some serious issues. Basically they tell me that they have no intention of paying for the repair even though the product is under warranty, in blatant violation of European law.


Did you buy the product from Microsoft?


I bought it from a retailer.


That's probably the issue.

Under the EU Consumer Protection Act, which I believe is what you are referring to, it is the responsibility of the retailer to deal with faulty products, and not the manufacturer.

In this case MS is the manufacturer and not the retailer so they are not obliged to help you.

I suggest you take the product back to the retailer, as they are responsible for any claims under the consumer protection laws.


> In this case MS is the manufacturer

Or, more likely, Microsoft provided the OEM with one of the many components used in the product.

Microsoft, of course, has no control over what the OEM does with it, and doesn't know unless it goes out and buys the product.

Where things get interesting is when Microsoft ships an update directly to the user. This is something the OEM has no control over.....


Yes, that's an interesting point. The digital economy leads to some grey areas.


Thanks for the advice. You're probably right, but still they admit that the product is under warranty, they ask me to send it to them for repair, they say that the product has some unspecified "mechanical faults", which they are unable to sort out, and only then they start to pretend that the product isn't under warranty, because their "technical service" is currently focusing on a different line of products they say. (What kind of pathetic excuse is that?) At the very least, it's completely unprofessional.


Then your contract is with the retailer and it's their problem. (They will try to fob you off, but it's their problem.)


there's quite some confusion about the european consumer law, whatever you do act fast because the real protection only covers six months.


The warranty lasts for two years. The six month time period refers to something else:

> Within six months from receipt of the goods, you just need to show the trader that they are faulty or not as advertised. But, after six months in most EU countries you also need to prove yourself that the defect already existed on receipt of the goods, for example, by showing that the defect is due to the poor quality of materials used.

I have successfully used the EU consumer protection laws to have Apple replace a faulty battery on a laptop that was around 20 months old.


There are definitely some advantages to being an Australian. In Australia there is no defined time limit for warranty. Apple at first tried to stop all warranty after a year, then they got multi-million dollar fines and were forced to pay for all repairs, or in many cases offer refunds.

Go to the Apple website today and you'll notice clear disclaimers that their warranty doesn't override a consumer's rights.


It's not only Windows 10 app store support that's like that. Every Microsoft product support shares the same constraints and lack of solutions/answers.

After moving abroad I was unable to access my Microsoft account(locked), for more than a month, just because I couldn't provide them with the last IP address I had used to access my account, along with last 5 received email subjects, 5 contacts in my contact list among many other unreasonable questions the common user doesn't even know how to answer. All this because I didn't own my recovery email address any longer.


To be fair, it's much worse to have your account hijacked than it being inaccessible for some time.


Not having a process in place for such situations is what doesn't make sense to me. We're talking about a big corporation.

Funny thing about it is that their support is so badly designed (to cut costs I suppose) that over the phone line there's not an option to talk with an operator regarding a Microsoft account. All you get is a "check microsoft online support for help on your account being locked"... which, guess what... requires authentication[1]!

[1]https://login.live.com/login.srf?wa=wsignin1.0&rpsnv=12&ct=1...


You have to consider the prior probability of having your account hijacked. In my case it is very low because I'm careful, but unfortunately authentication systems are one-size-fits-all and are designed for the average careless user. All I get from these systems is weakened security, disruption, and no benefits. I wish I could tell an authentication system that I will not forget my password and to not set up a recovery path using my mother's maiden name. I wish I could tell it that I'm willing to accept the risk of a hijack and to never unexpectedly lock my account because some machine learning algorithm thinks that my activity is suspicious. If anyone here works on an authentication system, then please add these settings.


BTW, if you wait for a month, you can reset the password without any knowledge of the account, and without the recovery email.

You can just request a reset mail to another address, wait 30 days, and it will arrive.


In my case they locked my account because I changed country and tried to access it from a different place. The password reset mechanism didn't help.

Actually, after getting my account unlocked, I was forced to change password and my new password became temporary for 30 days (couldn't change it again).


Wait... they can read your email to verify who you say you are? Really? When did that happen?


Because of being unable to check my recovery email address, this is the email I got on a 3rd email account.

http://postimg.org/image/oxinp1yot/


Yes, they can. They can access your contact list, your folders and your emails. They did this on my locked account.


This is roughly the same process Google uses, too.

Hopefully they avoided the couple of years where Google forgot to have that form submit to a working email address:

https://www.google.com/search?q=higgins-prod-lost-hard-landi...

While we're on the topic, now is a great time to print some backup codes and lock them in your safe. Sometimes it is easier to wait until you return home to recover from a lost / wiped smartphone.


Why are you surprised? Microsoft owns the servers. Email is by default not a secure form of communication. Assume everything you send that isn't encrypted by you to be in plaintext and readable by all the systems it passes through and is stored in.


That's the issue, right there. MS owns the servers - and extrapolates that it also owns whatever is on them, because "obviously you should have known better than use our servers." Even though this is probably legal, the "w3 0wnz0rz y00" mindset is the toxic ingredient here.


While I sympathize with the author's rant, bad service is bad service, I don't know if not developing for Win10 is the conclusion, it sounded like the App store sucks but so does the OSX App store and it doesn't mean you don't develop of OSX, it just means you don't use the App store.

Sounds like side loading is a better choice on both OSes.


Yeah Bitwig seems to be doing well as a powerful side load. Steams store is also an alternate channel to sell to windows users.


Of course steam also targets mac and linux users.


As a user who has not only Windows 8.1 but also Windows Phone (now Windows Mobile) 10, this blog is spot on and indicates a much larger problem on the horizon.

I can't tell you how many times I saw an article about an app and tried to find it in the store, only to come up empty handed. This has happened so many times on my Windows Mobile 10 phone, I lost count. Just this week I was looking for a better Twitter client app. I would type in "twitter" "tweet" "twitter client" "twitter app" and all I would get would be the main Twitter app and nothing else. Then I had to start doing Google searches for "best twitter client for windows mobile 10" which then gave me articles from 2013 and 2014 and for WP 8.1 - not exactly an up to date list of current Twitter clients.

Compare that to the Google Play store. You simply enter "Twitter" and get a dozen other apps, none of which have Twitter in their name. Plume, Echofone, Fenix, Talon, Persiscope are just a few of the examples.

It was such a massive headache, I actually decided yesterday I'ms scrapping Windows Mobile 10 and going back to Android. I've been a huge supporter since WP 7, and held out hope things would improve, and they haven't. Their app store is a massive failure, you can't find anything in the store you want, developers have no reason to build for the platform, and I'm not going to start with the myriad of UI problems I see already in the latest build (build 10586.63) that still have not been solved. Just basic shit like battery life is still a major problem. Not to mention they took away some very basic features from 8.1 that everybody loved like the ability to show Bing weather on the lock screen.

I've finally reached my breaking point with their platform.


This is a problem Microsoft has had since their Phone 7 store. I tried out their app submission process with a small and uninteresting but perfectly functional dice rolling app back when the windows store was brand new with nothing on it, and saw the same thing. It doesn't really matter what tags you add, the search is crap and my app didn't show up on any of the tags I added. Only by searching it's name letter-perfect could I find it. I wonder sometimes if theres a hidden seam of quality apps on the windows store that no one knows about because the search is so bad...


I have an hp split laptop. It's really anemic and I regret to have thought that processors had come as far as not having to think about them (you do). It has an Intel Pentium N3510. Anyways, it came with windows 8 and it was a slow and buggy product from day one. Linux on it runs worse then windows somehow. But since windows 10 it's at least bearable now. Windows 10 is faster at least on this machine.


I like windows 10, it's better than windows 7 IMO. Things have a smoother feel, the console works better and I feel more secure due to all sorts of new security improvements. I haven't noticed huge issues, the only thing that really bothers me if the fact that explorer has a tendency to freeze for a second when accessing a large spinning disk for the first time since boot up.


Things have a 'smoother feel'? You 'feel more secure'? because of (unnamed) security improvements? This is the kind of 'feedback' my ageing mother would give...


Isn't your ageing mother allowed on HN?


Thankfully the name alone would make her run a mile


Lol, yeah.. Nothing makes me feel more secure than an operating system that ships with a built in keylogger and cannot be disabled. I'm afraid to even use the internet on my windows 10 system, I only have it for games. Get with the program Microsoft, people want an OS they can trust, I feel like the last time I trusted a Microsoft OS was XP.


I'm in a minority as well I think as I kind of like Windows 10. Not sure I agree about the security part though!

However, all I am using it for is games that are not ported to linux yet, the rest is done on linux both at home and at work. That might influence my feelings.


Which new security improvements in particular do you feel make you more secure?


@op & @EasyTiger_

Well an example are the improvements to the various authentication implementations, the fact that I can now finally configure my personal workstation to be impervious to certain types of pass-the-hash attacks. A nice matrix that illustrates the improvements can be found here:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BfZw8iiCQAApq0T.png

Where 'green' is secure, as you can see a 'domain protected user' in windows 10 protects against almost every type of attack. These I have personal experience with from the attackers perspective, and windows 2012 domains are quite impervious to attacks that used to own the entire domain in as little as 2 hours. Not to mention that in addition to the matrix shown here, traditional psexec has finally been restricted to a special group of users, so that local administrators can no longer remotely take possession of a system unless explicitly configured to be able to.

Most of those improvements are really only applicable to enterprise, and some of them came about by switching to a more secure default (instead of new technolly).

New in windows 10 is also control flow guard (CFG), which most applications that I run at home and work already support. With the new addition of CFG use after free exploits should be harder to achieve on windows 10 than windows 7, although I don't have any personal experience with developing exploits for windows 10 yet.

In addition to the general improvements to credential protection and CFG, windows 10 is further isolating critical system components from each other in the kernel. I haven't experimented/looked at it in any detail yet, but I get the impression it's conceptually similar to qubes OS. In windows 7 the kernel patch protector (KPP) ran in ring 0, just like al l the other kernel code, if you got code execution you could simply patch KPP too, and then your rootkit had free roam over the kernel. Now Microsoft claims that in windows 10 KPP has been isolated so that normal 'ring 0' (if that still means anything in the traditional sense) can no longer patch it.


Even Windows 8 had under-the-hood security improvements to the kernel over 7 [1].

[1] https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/b8/2011/09/15/protecting-yo...


SmartScreen is a lot more aggressive, which should help non-techies from installing malware at lease. It throws up a warning on all non signed installers.


I've never seen an OS with that many forced reboots because of critical updates (often without any option for back-scheduling, showing a warning 5 minutes before and then rebooting without further notification in the middle of editing a file). A constant reminder about security patches :)


I'm curious about which security improvements you're referring to.


Now if only I could push libreoffice/gdocs or ms would release office for linux, I could deploy linux. Also, way too many scada systems require windows machines for the various proprietary ide's.... and it drives me nuts! Where's the foss scada?

Windows is dangerous and 10 just made it more so. It's not easy, but break free of the proprietary os chains now before they lock your brain in with iBrain and update it without your permission.


apps? Whats wrong with saying applications as for the last 20 years in windows environments ?


I get what you are saying but I think that (sadly) you are mistaken. From one perspective, Apps is just the short version of application. But from another, more significant perspective the binary blobs we call Apps live in an ecosystem (The famous "walled garden") which is totally different from the classic desktop world. Autonomy is dying, especially on the consumer level.


It's a good system. If it's called an "application" or a "program" it's probably worth having. If it's called an "app" it's probably not.


"The TeX app" doesn't sound that bad.


True, that is a good point!


The evolution of language. Apple from what I can tell was the catalyst behind it, the 'app store' and whatnot, and their products are very popular with the less technical crowd in particular.

It's sort of like the hacker vs. cracker distinction, it's all just considered 'hacking' now in common vernacular because of how the media portrayed it for the last decade as all just being called hacking. Maybe not the greatest example, but it comes to mind.


I just realized that App isn't just the first three letters of application but also Apple. Very clever move when you think about it...


.app was already the file extension of applications in NeXTSTEP in the early 90s. It carried over to OS X (eventually iOS) post-acquisition.

Unless someone was playing an extremely long game, that is just a nice coincidence.


It all makes sense now!


In my opinion the two are different, despite the same word origin.

Allow me to exaggerate for a bit: "application" implies desktop: you would run the installer, it would be a powerful (and complex) tool, capable of interacting with other local tools.

OTOH, "app" implies the everything-is-mobile paradigm: you ask the WhateverStore to install it for you, and if you've been nice and the phase of the moon is right, your plea is granted. Complexity is discouraged, drool-proof colorful interface is encouraged, the only allowed interaction is with the Big Walled Garden In The Cloud.

So, yes: Win10 has apps, and it's trying its damnedest not to have applications.


It never made much sense to focus the desktop app store on commercial products. Windows has a plethora of high quality open source software that most users never find and would have trouble downloading safely. Why wait for the commercial market to catch up when you can make good software available right now that benefits users? App stores work because of easy availability and without that they are mostly useless.


Yeah, hopefully more people listen and opt out. A future where Windows has a reduced market-share is ideal for the consumer. It doesn't even have to be that OSX or Linux take over. Maybe the void could be filled by some other vendor with a completely new design.


There is serious room for a 4th competitor. Windows is commonly used but gets a lot of hate, OSX is great but expensive, and linux is way too difficult for 99% of people to use.

Give me something else, please. I now hate windows, can't afford osx, and don't want to deal with linux.


This is your daily reminder that linux exists, is free, and doesn't make your life miserable.

http://calculate-linux.org


And the apps work very slow.


Couldn't they forward you to someone that can help you with the problem? The support seem to shut you down and close all the doors which is infuriating at best.


It sounds like he's talking to a bot when emailing Microsoft. I'm not surprised they'd use one to respond to emails.


from the windows 10 hello world:

To make your window resizable (!) and responsive, use the following XAML

    <VisualStateManager.VisualStateGroups>
	    <VisualStateGroup>
	        <VisualState x:Name="wideState">
	            <VisualState.StateTriggers>
	                <AdaptiveTrigger MinWindowWidth="641" />
	            </VisualState.StateTriggers>
	        </VisualState>
	        <VisualState x:Name="narrowState">
	            <VisualState.StateTriggers>
	                <AdaptiveTrigger MinWindowWidth="0" />
	            </VisualState.StateTriggers>
	            <VisualState.Setters>
	                <Setter Target="inputPanel.Orientation" Value="Vertical"/>
	                <Setter Target="inputButton.Margin" Value="0,4,0,0"/>
	            </VisualState.Setters>
	        </VisualState>
	    </VisualStateGroup>
	</VisualStateManager.VisualStateGroups>
i lolled.

theres also this gem:

    bmp Windows::WinForms::XAML::Imaging::Bitmap = ^new Windows::WinForms::XAML::Imaging::Bitmap(filestream)
Which can be avoided by putting `namespace Windows::WinForms::XAML::Imaging` in every CPP file.


Yeah, that verbosity is pretty ridiculous. I could make a responsive, resizable window in VB6 by dragging and dropping something in 10 seconds in 1998 if I wanted to. I understand it's not the same, but wow, the tooling has taken a step back now.

I feel like C++ is getting ridiculously cumbersome to code on par with Java, and I also feel like this "XAML" crap by Microsoft would drive away all but the more patient programmers.


this was how i felt reading the helloworld for windows 10. very good point.

for example from the same page: to print "Hello's" you actually have to type "Hello&quot;s", (I assumed you cant use \' anymore)


That's just bad formatting on the website.


It's verbose but also extremely flexible and toolable. You're discounting how easy it is to add arbitrary animations between these two states, or how you can visualize them in Visual Studio without having to rebuild your app.

You can also create your own triggers so that you can be "responsive" to any arbitrary event.

> bmp Windows::WinForms::XAML::Imaging::Bitmap = ^new Windows::WinForms::XAML::Imaging::Bitmap(filestream)

That must be an outdated example. That namespace doesn't even exist. You can add images like this:

<Image Source="hello.jpg"/>


I could be interesting to compare that to the Android/iOS/HTML5 equivalent.

Basically this XAML does 3 things:

- declare 2 states: narrowState for windows smaller than 640px widestate for windows wider >= 641px

- set the layout stacking strategy of a container to Vertical when in narrowState

- set a top margin of a button to 4px when in narrowState (not sure this is relevant for this sample)


I don't really see what's wrong in your second example. You get exactly what you ask for.

Sure, it could be improved by having

1) the "auto" keyword and

b) one project include which exactly defines which namespaces/aliases to use.


My original gripe was simple, if I declare bmp = class() should I really have to tell the compiler what the return type is? ideally no.

>its now in 4 spots (header, function definition, and two spots on the same line in case the compiler cant find those?)

also they added a ^ operator so thats cool.

but I guess my gripe is every time I want a different taxonomy function I have to page up to the top of my CPP and type 42 keystrokes. (also I think I might have been missing an extra taxonomy there and its really 5 namespaces deep.)


You can use C# or JavaScript if you don't like C++.


Well, once you understand visual states, that XAML example starts to make much more sense. I don't think the issue with W10 development are the tools because they are generally quite damn good.


Once you understand what the equivalent would be in a pure Win32 application, XAML starts to make much less sense... making a window resizeable involves setting one bit in the window styles and responsive just means a loop over the contents to move them to the right places when WM_SIZE message is received.

Declarative UIs in XML are more verbose and less flexible than just putting the appropriate expressions in a simple resize-recalc table, which is what the Win32 equivalent would be.


Without addressing the XAML mess, Window resizing in WINAPI is a complete mess too. You toggle whether a window is resizable by setting the window style (wtf!) with WS_THICKFRAME. When resizing windows, you need to handle three different messages (WM_ENTERSIZEMOVE, WM_EXITSIZEMOVE, WM_SIZE). To set minimum/maximum size, you respond to a WM_GETMINMAXINFO message.

All I wanted was SetWindowMinMaxSize(hwnd, min_size, max_size) and an event to tell me the window has resized. That's it.

This complexity allows apps to misbehave in various ways, either unintentionally, on purpose or maliciously. Windows programming is so darn complicated that it doesn't make any sense.


>responsive just means a loop over the contents to move them to the right places when WM_SIZE message is received.

So you're suggesting I should handroll my own layout manager? That sounds several orders of magnitude more complicated.


Well, essentially your re-layout loop would probably end up applying some specific pattern in code. Declarative UI is basically a way of doing that in a way that other developers have a better chance of understanding, and is less prone to bugs.

Not that you couldn't go the hard way and write the responsive UI with code only. A XAML file is essentially just a recipe for creating the hierarchy of objects in your UI, that the framework then goes on to draw. Everything that is done in XAML can just as well be done with code.


Having attended a course on XAML, and done a few small home projects using XAML, I can see how it can make sense if you use it intensively, but if you use it occasionally, it is an absolute nightmare, a bit like regex. Making things hard to learn is not a good design principle.


remarkable how many times the string "VisualState" appears. such a waste of bandwidth.




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