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> Rice is a terrible human being and a seasoned deceiver of the public.

This is a pretty callous thing to say, even for HN. I think there's a real discussion to be had here about data privacy and the power of law enforcement agencies, but demonizing Condoleezza feels like creating a straw man. She's just a board member-- it's not like she's VP of Product or CEO or something.

I get your point, but calling her a "terrible human being" is kind of extreme, don't you think? Not sure that statement adds to a well-reasoned argument. I personally don't agree with all her politics or behavior, but I don't think she ranks up there with the truly "terrible" humans. She was a professor at Stanford, is an accomplished musician, has done a lot for international US diplomacy, was the first woman in many of her roles, etc. etc.




As part of senior leadership pushing for the war in Iraq under false pretenses, which killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, thousands of Americans, and burned nearly 2 trillion dollars, I'd say she's earned the adjective of "terrible human being".


The Iraqi thing has been done to death.

It's never a black and white decision.

Yes, we may not agree with his decisions - but I guarantee that if you go through history, you will find many political decisions that each of us would disagree with.

I may not like a lot of the decisions my political leaders make (I'm Australian).

However, I don't pretend for a second that political leadership is an easy calling - it's a tough job, and a lot of pressure - which can affect people in different ways.

I dislike armchair pundits who will dissect every decision, and then try to force it into their own black/white view of things.

At the end of the day, they made the call to topple Saddam Hussein, and take out Iraq.

I don't think anybody will argue that Saddam was a great human being, or that his regime wasn't responsible for atrocities - for me, the question was more that did we (well, America and its allies) have better things to do with their soldiers and money?

And look, we took out one dictator and put in a democratic government - and gave them aid and training - but it remains to be seen what they can make of it.


> The Iraqi thing has been done to death.

That's like saying "The Holocaust thing has been done to death."

Louis CK nails this beautifully http://youtu.be/LQEqbTWa0Aw?t=48


>I get your point, but calling her a "terrible human being" is kind of extreme, don't you think?

Depends. What would one of the victims families say?


Agreed! People forget that the majority from both House and Senate voted to authorize the war in Iraq. I've read one of her biographies (she released a few of them), and came away very impressed with her honesty and accomplishments. By the same argument, you should consider almost every president's administration liable for committing war crimes, for example: Roosevelt -- WWII -- Carpet bombing of almost every city in Japan and Germany. Truman -- WWII -- Hiroshima and Nagasaki Eisenhower -- WWII commander and Korean war. Kennedy -- Vietnam Johnson -- Vietnam Nixon -- Concluded Vietnam Carter -- MIA -- didn't do anything, attacked by a rabbit. Reagan -- Some small conflicts that everybody already forgot about. Clinton -- Bombing of Kosovo Bush -- Afghanistan and Iraq Obama -- Drone attacks that have killed thousands including innocents


I don't see this as a compelling argument.

When I was 8, saying all the other kids did it too didn't make whatever I did ok.

If a student gets caught cheating in Rice's class, and says 'but the other students were cheating too' that wouldn't make it ok.


Your example doesn't really make any sense.

This wasn't about cheating - this was about war leaders making decisions during times of war or conflict (or what they believed was war).

As a President (or political leader) you will need to make hard decisions.

And you are guaranteed to annoy some sub-section of the population by your decisions.

And like it or not, conflict (or war) is a part of our world - and as a leader, you need to make tough calls.

We can dissect those decisions afterwards - and offer our own commentary. But I am not arrogant enough to think that I would make a better President or political leader - I don't have the stomach for those sorts of decisions, or a thick enough skin.

My question to you - do you think you could make better calls in each of those cases?

Personal opinion - I didn't agree with a lot of Bush Jr's decisions. However, I think he did the best with the information and advice he had. Whilst some people may not like him, I don't think anybody has actually ever accused him of being outright deceptive, or misleading? (Stupid, perhaps, but he was anything if not earnest).

Another thing - often on HN, we don't understand that we aren't really the majority - we're in our own little echo chamber here (for better or worse).

Most of us are fairly affluent, technologically advanced - and let's face it, out of touch with the average person.

And some of us are also part of the tin-foil hat crowd =).

Take the Snowden leaks - a lot of us are up in arms about the invasion of liberties (and possibly for good reason).

But for many average people, Snowden is nothing more than an American traitor - and the fact that we're spying on other nations? "Gee, I thought that's what our government was meant to do?". A lot of the people outside of tech don't really care that much about the invasion of privacy - they are so far removed from that sort of thing that it doesn't really impact them (or so they think).


"has done a lot for international US diplomacy" is what we're talking about here. As of 9/11, the US enjoyed unquestionable moral superiority and absolute world support. Then Sec. Rice squandered that by lying to the world, invading Iraq, and creating the current quagmire, which includes the deaths of probably hundreds of thousands of innocents.

I'm sure she plays a lovely piano sonata though.




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