Ask HN: (married founders): How did you save your marriage?

patio11 · on Aug 17, 2015

I'm sorry for your situation and wish you the best.

You and your wife having a difference of opinions on major life goals is something you should hammer out between yourselves, possibly with the assistance of a professional.

Let's focus on the more immediately solvable problems: if you're getting "You are invading my space" / "I see too much of you" signals, trivially solvable. This happened a few months into my marriage as well (I've been self-employed for the duration). I started making a point to work out of a cafe most days, and eventually found a co-working space. This lets my wife have run of the house during something which (most of the time) approximates a normal work day.

Not sure if it helps your situation, but it was a major stressor for my wife that I was not "with her" while I was physically in the same room with her. She prefers me being out-of-sight during the workday and an attentive husband and father outside of it than to feel like she's competing with IRB and losing for attention at 10 AM.

It is a regretful fact, much remarked upon in sociology literature, that financial pinches cause divorces. Make whatever adjustments to your business are required to maintain the standard of living that she expects you to have. This could include e.g. consulting to help bootstrap the product business, as opposed to burning through savings every month.

Many important stakeholders in your life may not appreciate how bootstrapper math actually works. Expectation management for it is important. Many stakeholders may follow scripts such as "A middle class man should work for a living. Someone who works is seen as working. Someone who is not seen as working is, therefor, not working." This counsels not conspicuously looking like one is not working. If you can develop other commonly accepted indicia that you are doing a Real Job, I recommend doing so. (You are, absolutely, running a real business. Non-entrepreneur stakeholders are not the only people in the average bootstrapper's life who need to understand that.)

Generic book recommendation for improving marital communication: the Five Love Languages.

idlewords · on Aug 18, 2015

Also, make sure your wife never hears you call her a 'stakeholder'.

GFischer · on Aug 18, 2015

I was going to post the same suggestion regarding coworking spaces, a co-working space and building a work schedule will help you a lot.

Patrick's advice is spot-on as usual.

Mz · on Aug 17, 2015

My wife didn't buy into my vision.

This is a big problem and possibly not fixable. It indicates deeper problems, like communication problems and incompatible values. It also means you disregarded her wishes and now can't understand why she is unhappy about that.

My wife chose to be a stay at home mom and I think she resent my being in her space during weekdays.

Then get out of her space. Find someplace else to work. Go to a library or get an office of some sort or go to a business incubator space or something.

Also, do not underestimate how freaked out she probably is about the lack of financial security. This is a big hot button for stay at home moms. Can you find a way to give her some additional sense of financial security? This was a big source of friction in my own marriage, which ultimately ended in divorce. (I was the stay at home mom.)

davismwfl · on Aug 17, 2015

Have to agree with both these points. With a couple of caveats.

His wife not buying into the vision of the business isn't as critical as her buying into him starting a business and being at home. If she didn't buy into him starting the business and doing it from home and he disregarded then I agree things are gloomy for the marriage as she must feel disregarded and disrespected.

However, if she didn't buy into the business idea but was good with him starting a business and doing so from home it is different. I state this because my wife couldn't understand my business and didn't buy into why it would work, but she believed in me which is what was important.

On the financial point, my wife had never known anything but steady 2 week paychecks before being with me. To help her feel somewhat more secure we set aside money from each job (more than I normally would) that was dedicated to our savings. In addition, I gave her a read only login to the accounting system so she could always see the reports, bids, outstanding invoices etc. Plus every week I would tell her financially what was going on so she felt comfortable, we don't do this as regularly anymore but I still keep her in the loop.

savorypiano · on Aug 17, 2015

With a kid, your wife's priorities have shifted to revolve completely around him/her. It's a tiring and thankless job, and anything else looks easier in comparison (true or not). Thus, when you abandon your previous role as secure breadwinner to pursue your dreams, it makes it seem like you don't have the same priorities. Add upon that, you are at home and visibly not contributing to the priority, since you have such an easy time (in her eyes). Lastly, it's triply frustrating because she is now dependent on you, having given up her career and her uterus (and thus a reduced chance of finding another breadwinner), but you have ignored her predicament.

Anyway, not saying she is right and I understand the dream as well. Just pointing out her perspective (I've got a kiddo as well).

What is done is done, so the thing to do now is to give it your best shot, but also communicate your progress honestly. You have customers, which should be a great turning point for the both of you.

brudgers · on Aug 17, 2015

Sorry to hear about your situation.

  A. Starting with questions relating to business viability:

    A1. Are the customers paying enough to 
        provide a reasonable income?

    A2. Are the backlog of paying work
        and revenue growing?

    A3. Are you exclusively spending your time completing     
        paying work and directly finding paying work?

If the business isn't viable or your time is being spent on playing house or both, it's time to pull the plug.

  B: Relationship questions:

    B1. Do you value your marriage more than your dream?

    B2. Are their children involved?

These all come into play even if the business is viable because it is orthogonal to family stability.

Pulling the plug on a non-working business now is better than slow heat death. A bootstrapped business is different from a investment fuelled startup. Just surviving is good for a startup because it allows the possibility of exponential growth. A just surviving small business takes nearly as much energy, but only offers an upside of "a little better than surviving". Figure out if you're treading water to protect sunk cost.

Good luck.

ruraljuror · on Aug 18, 2015

Communication is the key. For example, I'm trying to figure out from your post what the actual problem is. It seems like you don't know, which is not exactly a surprise. You say "I think she resents my being in her space during weekdays." First of all, you can ask her what the problem is. Second of all, you can try to give some breathing room by working in a coffee shop or something.

Of course that one issue is not everything, but it is something that could be worked on in the short term.

I highly recommend the book Getting the Love You Want.

edit: Rereading this, it sounds more brusque than I intended. Also, if you do ask your wife what is wrong, that can obviously be a charged conversation. Getting the Love You Want has a technique called the imago dialogue. Even if your wife (who seems reluctant to therapy) won't engage in this, you can still use the techniques yourself. For this particular conversation you want to focus on mirroring, that is: let her speak, then repeat what she told you and ask if you summarized it correctly. If you're not both on the same page, this may end up being one-sided. The point is to make sure you understand her point before you make yours (or vice versa). You will often see you're upset about very different things.

The book is really fascinating.

Neptune5 · on Aug 17, 2015

For the home office, compromise and go to one of those places where contract workers rent out an office cubicle. My wife applied for a job where she was going to work from home and I told her she could not work from home all the time. She needed to go to an office environment to at least talk to other people for both our sanity. As for the relationship in general, there are deeper problems than just a home office. Maintaining a relationship means that you know what your roles are and what responsibilities those roles have in the relationship at any given time. Sometimes your wife needs someone to listen to her and not solve her problems, at other times it is you who needs that and so on. I always tell couples to start with communication. Set some ground rules for communicating and set designated times for having discussions if you do not have have time to argue at a given moment. Working couples disagree and commit to shared resolutions. Lastly be honest with yourself, what will make you happy (what can you live without and what must you absolutely have in order to be happy), don't ask for ridiculous things, just focus on what want out of the relationship. Be prepared to also have her point of view too.

innertracks · on Aug 18, 2015

James Altucher has some sage advice for founder types. Definitely worth your time to check out his blog.

I'm on my second marriage. (First one went 20 years.) I was very clear about my values regarding money and work with my second wife. I fulfilled every vision of the man she was looking for except one. She expected a professional or business man who put on a suit and tie and went to work every day at an office with a steady paycheck. Ties are for weddings and funerals, maybe. I constructed my post-divorce life (my financial needs are minimal) so I wouldn't need a dependable paycheck.

And I love living that way.

Which is one of the reasons I can and love to take on short term projects. Not needing regular income makes all the difference. At this stage of my life (turning 50 next year) having to give up that freedom would be reason enough to leave. Assuming of course reasonable compromises or adjustments and a family therapist didn't help.

Your life. Knowing yourself and how you want to spend your time on this planet is very, very important.

dragonwriter · on Aug 17, 2015

It really sounds like you need to sit down and have a conversation with your wife about both of your visions for the family, financially and otherwise; right now (from your description) it sounds like you made decisions independently of her that she didn't buy into, and are now trying to guess what might be bothering her about that.

What I think you need to do is work to understand what she is thinking, and work from there to, if possible, come to a mutually-agreeable approach.

I'd be cautious about unilaterally adopting any of the other approaches suggested in the thread (e.g., working from another location), because if the real underlying problem isn't "you're invading my space", but, e.g., "you are unilaterally making decisions and not respecting my concerns", than that may exacerbate rather than mitigate the situation.

tptacek · on Aug 17, 2015

You and your spouse should be on the same page regarding what you're doing with your career, full stop.

ropman76 · on Aug 18, 2015

This is not about giving up your dreams, it's about figuring out what your wife needs to be happy being married to you. Her being mad about you being in her space could by a symptom that she feels she is not getting enough of your undivided attention (as others have pointed out). If she is unhappy with your start-up try taking about your plans with her more and see how she reacts. Getting your marriage back on good footing is a bit like A/B testing in that you need to keep trying different things to see what works. A good marriage therapist can help speed up the process.

tixocloud · on Aug 18, 2015

I'm really sorry for the situation you're in. It's important that you and your wife have an honest conversation.

You think she resents you but I would advise you to open up and have a chat with her to see what she's upset about. Listen to her speak and feel her heart. Once that happens, open up yours and let her know how you feel about the whole situation.

Marriage is about compromise and communication. There are many reasons why she could be troubled and her resentment may only be just a symptom of a deeper underlying problem. Probe that problem. Figure out what it is.

espresso · on Aug 20, 2015

> My wife chose to be a stay at home mom and I think she resent my being in her space during weekdays.

Communication is key. Try to get a good picture of what your wife has in her mind, because emotional state or ideas are key. The world is largely emotional, which you have to find your way of dealing with. Find out the reasons by just listening. Be aware that the answers or story you get depends on her emotional state. If something is wrong, she will not tell you something is wrong even after asking. People focus so much on the negative and forget every positive thing in a relationship but if people were perfect they wouldnt love eachother. As for "her space", see below.

> I should abandon my dream so quick

A relationship is always between two people. Both decided to be together, avoid blame and 'you and me' situation, nobody has a fault here because every day you (and her) have a choice. Try to give and receive happiness and do some fun things on the side.

If there is no 'we' in the relationship anymore, communicate or break up.

atsaloli · on Aug 18, 2015

My wife did not want to see a marriage counselor at first either. Our marriage did not improve until we got counseling at our church. Also, I started to exercise and got on a weight loss program to improve my appearance; and upgraded my clothing, which is important to her. The marriage is a work in progress...

davismwfl · on Aug 17, 2015

Sorry to hear it, I don't know what to tell you to do, but I will share my personal experience and say that I wouldn't abandon your dream yet.

I spent years working outside the house, whether it was for myself or an employer I was not at home. My wife was/is a stay at home mom as well and that is a full time gig I sure as hell wouldn't want, it is hard. About 3 years ago I started working out of my house, and honestly my wife and I didn't really talk a whole lot about logistics we just did it and honestly had some excitement about it.

Well.... About 3 months in I noticed we both were being shorter with each other and honestly we were more distant even though we were in the same space. After a couple of more months we both realized something wasn't right. We had to have a few conversations about boundaries, separation of space and expectations. It took probably another 2-3 months to get a balance around it, so if you are doing the math from me starting at home full time to us having some balance it was like 6-8 months.

Somethings we did (still do):

1. Dedicated one room to be my office and put doors on it to keep that space isolated. We also setup some rules around it, if I was in my office with the doors shut, she had to consider that I was working and needed to respect that and not interrupt me unless necessary and even then to knock first. If the doors were open then it was open and all I asked was for her to not interrupt me if I was madly typing something out. :)

2. Being me, I also was making suggestions why she should do something differently around the house, or when she would complain about something I'd do the stupid male thing and offer a solution when all she wanted was the venting time. Even if my way was more efficient or better, she was running the house and I needed to respect that and let her do it. If she needed help she could ask me and I'd do what I could, but we agreed we'd have those as conversations not me just sticking my nose into something and commenting etc.

3. I spend a little time every week outside the house doing my work. This helps her and I. For me the change in view and different environments can be inspiring and for her she gets a break from me and to have some alone time. We all need some alone time.

4. I set hours on my work, and do my best not to violate them unless something is going on or its crunch time. This lets the house have a more natural flow, e.g. work hours and play hours.

5. We go out to lunch at least 1-2 times a week together, outside the house as a treat to ourselves, like a mini-date. My wife rocks and will also make me lunch a lot of days cause she knows I will work right though lunch and not eat which is bad.

6. Also, we joined a gym and sometimes go workout together and other times go separately. But it let us have time again outside the house.

Over time we have relaxed rule 1 more, but in the earlier days it really helped us get the cadence of the house down. Also, I get that it seems like you need less time together sometimes, but in reality we found that it wasn't the amount of time we were spending but how we were spending it and respecting each others boundaries. We had and have a solid marriage so while this took us time to figure out we just had to get the respect and rules in place. And of course, from time to time we still get on each others nerves during a given week, I know I can be difficult sometimes if for no other reason is that I am a constant smart ass. But that's just normal marriage to me.

TL;DR> Set boundaries, respect them, setup distinct times for work/home, respect her "job", get out of the house weekly for even a few hours and setup dates or activities together outside the house.

Good luck.

dennisgorelik · on Aug 19, 2015

How long have you been running your startup?

bbcbasic · on Aug 17, 2015

As a short term pressure relief you could work from another location as others have suggested. Try that. If it doesn't help I suggest quit the start up for now, get a good job to bring in the money and and return to the business idea later on. This is assuming finances are an issue. Unless you are rich?

When you have family you need to optimize for everything - wife, kids, financial and dreams, and not just for your dreams. This can be quite a juggle and a tension between your needs.

However the default of the 9-5 job, the rent/mortgage paid and spending time with the family is always a stable place you can return to, and then you can be in a good space prepare yourself and your wife for your next entrepreneurial adventure.

The next priority is to get you and your wife on to a stable footing, with good communication, and build a common vision for you and your family for the next 10 years and the next 20 years which may include building a business. I think talking about the next 10 years alone could give your wife a sense of security that you see yourself with her and the family forever.

Staying at home with young children is stressful, and with a baby crying, dirty nappies on the floor, or toddlers throwing tantrums, the house in a mess and the husband in the way and not helping I can imagine it would be quite stressful for the wife. Plus lord knows how you concentrate and be productive, they must be in your way too.

Lots of great words in this thread, but only you can decide what is best to do. You know all the facts. I wish you the best of luck and hope it all works out. I am sure it will.

1arity · on Aug 18, 2015

Divorced founder here. I had this experience.

It really works to establish this before you get married.

Since the journey you are on, as you say, it really works when your life partner buys into your vision.

You are going to be making choices about how to work, when to work, and with regard to the current burn rate of your life, and with regard to the value of future pay offs, that are vitally important for people in a relationship to agree on. If your partner doesn't share your passion for this, or believe in you, how are they going to come on that journey with you? Will they be there for you and support you when you and your business need that?

Will they give you the extra runway by getting a job, or will they insist you chuck it in and get a job?

I mean, having a business is a lot of ways like having a baby, you are always working on it, and everything changes around doing it. And it really works for your partner and you to carry that weight together.

No one knows what's going to happen, it could all work out. Maybe it's simply differences in expectations that can be reconciled through communication. Or maybe it's something more fundamental. At this stage tho, you don't know.

My choice was to cut my losses quickly when it seemed like it wasn't working. I would caution against that, since I feel that the marriage is an asset, because of your commitment to each other. When you got married, didn't you vow to be there for each other, through sickness and health, and failure and success? So my recommendation after trying the opposite ( and it not working ) is just stick it out. Try to make it work, because that relationship could be so important to you if it maintains.

In my case, we divorced. Not, mind you, just because of a business. There's always a mix of things, and both people are responsible. I think the main thing was simply not really emphatically communicating about what our expectations were, and also not really being so committed to sticking it out, we both chose to cut our losses. Well, at least we had the same efficient mind! Still I believe through lack of communication and commitment we didn't quite work out exactly what it could have been. So persistence, could really be key.

Later I found someone who really did buy into my vision, and support me while working on the project. Objectively this person is far more compatible with doing this startup, tho the truth is, you never know how things could have been different, had you done them differently.

As other posters suggested -- maybe get some husband time to yourself, away from the wife and kid, cafe working, or cave working, or shed working, some time and place to be around other people who do share your vision. I think that idea of community really helps. Why? Because in a way you are asking your wife to be your community if you don't get out there and rely on others as a community. And being around the energy of others can really refresh you and give you that mental reset so when you come home, it's like a delineated time, and you're all ready to go husband and daddy mode again.

It is a scary time. Maybe rethink feeling ashamed, tho. You're trying to juggle doing a lot of things. You're not doing anything wrong -- you're just trying to make it work. That's noble, not shameful.