It's not the cloud cost that is stopping people from doing this. It is the installation and administration cost. That requires time and expertise that most either don't have or are not willing to spend.
"Poor" on its own generally refers to monetary cost, which is what I responding to.
I agree with you. Time poor is a definite problem, even (or especially) among people that aren't money poor, and it comes with its own Vimes's Boots analogy. For example, the many articles we read here about the centralized service of the week creating some kind of problem for their users, which could have been dodged with a little outlay of time to make better tech choices in the first place.
Poor, as I intended it, was meant to encompass many things. Working poor people have less money, but they also often have less free time because they have less money. If you have plenty of money you can shop around for jobs that fit your schedule better, or if your job allows for it take time off, or outsource some work you would have to do yourselves (housecleaning, maintenance, landscaping, child care when you're unavailable, cooking, etc). Additionally, if you're in a family, there's a higher chance that both parents will need to work full time, meaning there's less free time for all those things mentioned above, which if one parent worked part time or not at all could allow for a lot of those things to be done while one is working, leading to more free time in the evening for both.
Given that, who's more likely to look into free alternatives to apparently free services online? The middle-class person with a spouse that works part time and takes care of many of the chores and that pays for a handyman or contractor or repair man to fix appliances and household problems or the poor person that works full time, their spouse works full time, and when they're done working they're busy doing the chores that life requires because paying someone else is not feasible for them?
It feels like you're stretching to fit this into some memetic narrative of "poor" when most people are time poor until you get to the upper class. While middle class people are more likely to pay for things that need skilled repair (due to knowing fewer people who can do such work informally), they're not paying for things they can do themselves like housecleaning, landscaping, etc - paying someone else for ongoing large chunks of time is an indicator of being an upper class.
The point isn't to discount anyone's struggle, but rather to look at the actual mechanisms that hinder adoption of libre software. And apart from some relatively affordable table stakes, I don't think the financial cost is really one of those. The attention cost of self-actualizing and the ambiguity of using a non-advertised solution are though.
> While middle class people are more likely to pay for things that need skilled repair (due to knowing fewer people who can do such work informally), they're not paying for things they can do themselves like housecleaning, landscaping, etc
It's not that they're paying for all of them, but that they have the option of paying for them and I would hazard that a good portion of middle class families with both parents fully employed opt for offloading at least some of that some of the time if they live in a portion of the country where middle class means you actually have disposable income. E.g. many people pay for larger landscaping projects, or hire a handyman to do cleanup around the outside of the house or even might have a maid come in once a month. This might be less common now that the middle class has eroded to some degree, but I think that's a problem of a shrinking middle class, not of those being things the middle class doesn't do.
> And apart from some relatively affordable table stakes, I don't think the financial cost is really one of those.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Having spare hardware to run something, a stable place to put it, and paying the power for it (a minor but increasing cost) all play a part.
> The attention cost of self-actualizing and the ambiguity of using a non-advertised solution are though.
I agree, and I think the working poor have less attention to spare because of less free time, but also that they generally have more and larger worries that make this problem seem insignificant by comparison. If your major worried are making rent, having enough money for food, repairing your car so you can effectively get to work and take kids to school, spend quality time with your family, and set up a solution so that your privacy is protected from companies that want to monetize you, which one will get the least attention? Middle class families probably have at least one less of those concerns, and every major concern that's more important than using free software to avoid a small but persistent exploitation is something that competes for attention.
I still don't understand why you're trying to shoehorn this into a narrative about being poor. To me it just comes across as a dismissal of the overall concern.
Sure, all of those dynamics may be slightly harsher if you're financially poor. But it's not like once someone reaches "not poor", time for self-actualization abounds. And from the other perspective, it's not like libre software is not taking off merely because the lack of adoption by poorer people. So what is your actual point from tying the topics together?
> I still don't understand why you're trying to shoehorn this into a narrative about being poor
Well, part of it was that a sibling reply[1] was already present, and the idea that "oh, we can all just run our own AI models at home" seemed ludicrously costly in both money, and time to me. It's not that I was trying to shoehorn it in as much as juxtapose it against what was already being stated.
> But it's not like once someone reaches "not poor", time for self-actualization abounds.
I have no idea why you you are interpreting the inverse of my statement that being poor makes this harder to mean that not being poor makes it easy or trivial, which is how it appears to me you're interpreting my statements.
Privacy is hard in the current climate. It takes time and effort or money to alleviate some of the privacy concerns, to different degrees depending on the specific concern. Those are all things the working poor have less of than other economic groups, so solutions that require them will likely be less used by them. That doesn't mean don't offer them, but we should keep that in mind when advocating for people switching to open source solutions, so we make sure the solutions actually solve the needs of the people intended to use them, and not just the needs of a subset of those people.
It would be a real shame if what I think is one of if not the best option for solving this problem in an egalitarian way failed to take into account the needs of that economic group and we actaully ended up with a solution that many are protected by, but disproportionally not the poor for multiple reasons. A world where 90% of people out of poverty are protected in some manner but only 50% of people in poverty are isn't necessarily better IMO, and may actually be much worse, since I'm not sure there will be much incentive to fix it at that point.
No, I wasn't very clear in my initial comment (and wasn't really going this deep), I just wanted people to consider that running your own LLM for your own needs isn't really feasible for most people and in a more general way than a reply to that person specifically might have communicated, and I was slightly inebriated when I wrote it, so didn't think it warranted much explanation.
I had a dozen failures before I struck on the sass product that retired me in my forties.
You try, you learn, you improve, and eventually something might work. Or you don’t try, keep your safe job and work until you’re 70 like everyone else.
Interesting but also scary to go this route. I think part of the problem in Europe is also that companies/governments are less open to just try out new (startup) solutions. I would love to be learn from US startups how they manage to sell without much done already.
Thanks for this - I think there's something to also be said about too many people failing once and not trying again.
This could be for any number of reasons:
1. burnout
2. life circumstances (dependents like kids, parents or others)
3. time to failure - if you built a company for 9 years, you might have less time and appetite to start again (partly due to 1 and 2)
Life is uncertain, many things about our life are probabilistic. Risk management is central to many aspects of life. On HN a prevailing sentiment is on the luck of doing a startup (no doubt you do need luck!!!) but what about the farmer or fisherman? A disease or weather can wipe you out. Or a storm can kill you while you're out at sea.
> I think there's something to also be said about too many people failing once and not trying again.
Yes!
If you're an entrepreneur, short term failure is by far the most likely outcome. Successful entrepreneurs are the ones that keep trying until they finally hit on a success.
"No Kubernetes because the idle cluster cost with nothing in it is larger than the total cost of my current setup" has been the case for quite a while. I wonder whether it is anywhere on the k8s priority list to fix this. Even K3s consumes a lot more than say docker swarm for more or less the same job.
Until "recently" (mobile phone era) Intel/AMD basically had no competition. They completely missed the mobile market and are now seeing competition from ARM in laptop/server. An there is also RISC-V on the radar. When/if CPU architecture becomes more de-monopolized, manufacturing competitiveness will be a big factor.
I wonder if any private keys used for signing genuine MB parts have leaked as well. Auto makers seem obsessed with controlling the spare part market and leaking the keys used to authenticate spare parts would make it possible for other vendors to produce compatible parts in the future.
Indeed. Ironically I had a porsche 928 which used an air actuator from Mercedes, and it was a fraction of the price from them. Parts guy at merc was a little sniffy, but it saved me £100!
Lots of German car components are generic Bosch, just with different markup depending on whether you're looking at Skoda, VW, AUDI, BMW, MB or Porsche in that order.
