Why U.S.? I understand that you don´t want to live in your country, but there are many others countries. Many of them has a much flexible immigration system where you can live legally if you find a job and where there are many jobs opportunities if you know how to code. I mean, instead of working almost illegally for free in the U.S., you can be legally and earning good money in another country. I´m from Uruguay and this will work here (also, you will have health insurance, as it is mandatory in any job of any type. Also, it is common that tech companies hire forgeries that don´t know Spanish, as most people know English, is not a problem). I know that this is also the case in many other countries.
Your comment makes a lot of sense and yes, the visa hassles are obviously the most logical reasons why any "foreigner technology worker" should try working elsewhere than in the US. But you know what? I don't think they can "hear" you.
Let's face it, for many countries, the US is still seen as dreamland, in particular to those many who don't connect the dots between the root cause of the problems in their homeland and the 30% tax that will be taken away from their income once they start working in the US.
This dreamland illusion is so strong that even the locals believe it. I have to deal with this on a monthly basis at the border custom patrol: the officers constantly stop me at the border and investigate me with tons of questions aiming at evaluating whether or not I am trying to "sneak into the country to steal work from honest US citizens" (sic). Every time, I am treated like a lost soul who's dreaming of working in the US (and who's very probably a criminal considering my skin color). Last time I crossed the border I was even warned that my passport doesn't show proof that I left the US, it only shows every time I entered it so technically, they don't know if I am staying there more than 90 days. How do you respond to this without being insulting? The thing is: I hate the idea of working in the US so much that I can't even talk honestly about what I feel fearing I would be arrested.
So, yes, "why US?", you asked the right question. But these guys are living in the exact same illusion than the US citizens are: "Our country is the best place in the world, the only place you're free of your opinions and where you can become a billionaire." The illusion is so strong they would even work for free...for free...for free...for free...
> Last time I crossed the border I was even warned that my passport doesn't show proof that I left the US, it only shows every time I entered it so technically, they don't know if I am staying there more than 90 days.
This boggles the mind. "Hey, I'd love to have an exit date stamped on my passport. But I don't make the rules." First time I went to the US I got apprehensive because I didn't see an "exit" stamp. My passport was full of such stamps, mostly from Portugal and so I expected one. Only after arriving back at my country and turning the data package in my cellphone on is that I discovered that the US issues no such stamps.
> the US is still seen as dreamland, in particular to those many who don't connect the dots between the root cause of the problems in their homeland and the 30% tax that will be taken away from their income once they start working in the US.
Only 30%? That's nothing. Were in the world would you pay less?
> The thing is: I hate the idea of working in the US so much that I can't even talk honestly about what I feel fearing I would be arrested.
You give crap to law enforcements, specially immigration officers, and you are in for a bad time, anywhere. I bet your attitude has something to do with it too. Try to be polite.
My experience with US immigration is that they are cuddly teddy bears compared to Japan.
> Last time I crossed the border I was even warned that my passport doesn't show proof that I left the US, it only shows every time I entered it so technically, they don't know if I am staying there more than 90 days.
I can tell you all about this. Technically, the onus is on the air carriers to use their passenger manifests to report back to DHS, who tracks it all centrally. You can imagine how well that works.
> Technically, the onus is on the air carriers to use their passenger manifests to report back to DHS, who tracks it all centrally. You can imagine how well that works.
Well, aside from any compliance problems, its quite possible (and legal!) to leave the US by means other than air travel. (And, to respond to the link you provided, also quite possible and legal to do so by means other than commercial air or sea travel.)
> Only 30%? That's nothing. Were in the world would you pay less?
27,5% for income and 15% for capital here in Brazil. What is very expensive considering the quality of public services. And the taxes paid for products are much higher.
Seriously, this is the most helpful comment on here. OP, I understand the psychological pull of America, and perhaps it is the first Western country you have visited, but it is not worth it to work illegally (as you are proposing, even if no money changes hands) in America.
You may improve your life temporarily but it will all come crashing down one day when the immigration authorities catch up to you. You will be deported and banned from re-entering the US. There are many developed countries where someone with your skills can obtain a temporary work visa easily. You can live and work freely and legally, get on your feet financially and maybe attend university there to help you get into the US legally in the future.
Maybe it will help if you tell us where your citizenship is and we can help you with suggestions of other developed countries that will allow you to come for a 1-2 year temporary work visa.
I agree. It is definitely better to move to a different country. Perhaps Canada, or some country in Europe? Australia has lax immigration requirements as well.
Not sure where you heard this, but Australia's immigration policy is .. agressive .. at best.
It's a points based system, which is punitive of age and education.
30 years is the cut off for the 'easy', one year, restricted 'working holiday' visa that you may have been thinking of.
For regular immigration, you'll need a working visa, which requires your hiring company to handle the paperwork.
Likewise, if you're trying to immigrate without an already found job, with no college degree, the OP will find the point system probably weighing heavily against him.
One of the most flexible countries at the moment is Spain. The weather is great, the food is great, and it's a fun country.
> It's a points based system, which is punitive of age and education.
Pretty much the same than Canada but still way less restricting than USA.
>One of the most flexible countries at the moment is Spain. The weather is great, the food is great, and it's a fun country.
Spain has still a pretty significant unemployment rate, also (this may vary depending of the region and where are you originally from) some people are not very polite with some immigrant even if they are Spaniard-decendent (anecdotical experience from some friends living over there)
That's actually one of the reasons they've been pushing the new (2013, very new in terms of how quickly most visa situations evolve..) entrepreneur visa(s) in spain.
There's two types: one gives you 1 year residency (can be extended, of course) - application is decided within 10 days.
Another gives you 2 years, decision in 20 days.
Entry requirements are low. It's worth checking out.
In 10 days, you could be in Spain. There are many decent tech companies hiring as well.
Err this is not true. There are so many illegal immigrants in America that deportation is unlikely. You'd have to do something pretty bad to get deported.
Those millions of illegal immigrants are living on the margins of society in order to avoid the authorities. They are unable to get well-paying work, they are at the mercy of employers who can rat them out to the INS at any time if they complain about poor labour conditions, they cannot get health insurance, they cannot get mortgages or college loans for their kids. You can't hide like this while working in the tech industry. Do you know of many illegal immigrants working at Google?
Huh? I knew many illegal immigrants growing up with professional parents and comfortable middle class lives...immigration is more varied than the experience you see on TV although admittedly many immigrants are poor.
I have also had various family members overstay visas for very long periods of time and they weren't dirt poor. On the other hand, this kind of hiding in plain sight is hell when kids turn 18 and can't attend a university. That's the most sad part of the existence and a big reason for support of the DREAM act.
Also not fully true. Not working at google doesn't mean you live in the margins of society. It's possible to have a pretty okay life as an illegal immigrant here in the united states.. It's also possible to have a bad life as well... you def won't have a job at google but many times whatever you can get is still a better life than what some people get in their native country...
Counterpoint with a few points of anecdata: 2 good friends, 1 Stanford CS, the other Stanford Econ (minor CS), both got kicked out of the US -- one due to an H1B issue, the other because he visited home in Uzbekistan and didn't get let back in.
Well educated as they are, skilled people usually don't prefer to live illegally. And that's why you will most likely see ex-illegals and unskilled people receiving green cards or citizenship in US.
Do you mean being arrested? Because having your permission to stay/work revoked with a given time to leave the country looks like being deported for me. After that, even a touristic visa will be harder to obtain again.
Please, don't get offended. I'm not a heavy user here and I don't have permission to downvote posts.
"Told to leave"; sure he could stay an illegal and just live off the radar, but the expected value of that is really low given his options anywhere else in the world. I guess if you want to argue semantics, his risk of being physically flown out of the country was probably not substantial.
I think the purpose of all this discussion was whether OP should come to the States and work under the radar, and the general consensus is that being here illegally strongly caps your upside, and has a pretty uncertain downside.
PS - My friend's now the chief engineer of a successful business in London... I always thought it was such a shame for a guy who worked his way from being an orphan on a farm in Kenya to live 90% of the American Dream, only to be kicked out of the country after putting in his all at Stanford and at a few startups.
This history sounds weird for me as he was in a relationship for 5 years and haven't even tried to marry with the girl to fix his status. The only safe way to stay in US is by getting married, what give to the skilled workers the same level of opportunity given to illegals. An immigration policy that encourages the fraud.
Ditto this... as a developer in Auckland, I've got to say it's pretty sweet here. Ditched a career in investment banking in the US for the quality of life here. I only occasionally regret it.
Likely anytime he needs to catch a bus or a train. Or wishes to have a discussion about something other than Auckland housing prices, Rugby, or Reality TV.
I'm currently in the process of sorting out a temporary work visa in Christchurch (+1 for the quality of life comment seriously). It's definitely harder to get a work visa without a degree in your field of work (I switched to software from another field of engineering), but 5+ years of relevant experience can serve as an alternative to a degree.
Acquisition of Blue Card has several requirements. The applicant must have a work contract or binding job offer with a salary of at least 1.5 times the average gross annual salary paid in the Member State. A Blue Card acquirer must present a valid travel document (and in specific cases a valid residence permit or a national long-term visa) and documents proving the relevant higher professional qualification.
Blue Card isn't only option. For example, in Sweden there are two work visas for software developers: Blue Card and Work Permit.
I didn't get Blue Card since I didn't get job offer with really high salary, but instead I got Work Permit which don't require salary 1.5 times higher than the average.
Also in Netherlands there are two options: Blue Card and High Skilled Migrant.
Requirements for High Skilled Migrant are much lower than for Blue Card.
In Sweden and Netherlands you can work without university degree.
In Germany, you can not get Blue Card without university degree. And if you want to get Work Permit as alternative, you should know German language (Sweden and Netherlands don't require you to know their language).
So Germany isn't good option. I recommend Sweden and Netherlands if you don't have university degree.
AFAIK, no-one has ever received a Blue Card in the NL. The salary requirement is higher than for knowledge migrants, so it doesn't even make sense to try.
Knowledge migrant law discriminates on age. If he's over 30, the salary requirement is prohibitevely high - high enough that it is highly improbable he'll find a company willing to pay him that much with his profile.
If he's under 30, than the salary requirement is around €3k per month, and that might be doable if he does his interview exceptionally well and convince them he has a "thinking level" of somebody with a university degree.
Yes, for software developers in Germany with a permanent contract and higher education it is really quite easy.
I recently acquired a blue card kind of accidentally, after landing a permanent contract with a company as an iOS dev. The HR person took me into the foreigners office to apply for a sponsored work visa (where I would be tied to a specific company) and we walked out with a blue card tied to my profession instead, on the spot. Blue cards are really amazing - you have free movement inside the entire Schengen region, can work for anyone, you get unemployment benefits and it's a relatively short period before you can get permanent residency (with a language requirement - B1 in 21 months).
Question to HN: What are the easiest countries for people from <anywhere> to move to as a software developer? Eg; easiest visa rules, there are companies hiring, people aren't egregiously racist?
The Netherlands. The only requirement is that you learn Dutch at a very basic level. Apart from that everybody, and I mean everybody, speaks English and the standards of living are among the highest in the world. Sure beats living on a mattress in some illegal housing in L.A.
I've been living in the Netherlands for nearly 7 years and haven't even tried to learn Dutch yet. Completely concur that it's an easy and wonderful country to live in, and there's tons of work for good software developers.
Language is an extremely touchy subject in Flanders, not something exclusive for West Flanders. Not everybody in Flanders is like that, but it is certainly not a minority also. My father is (West-)Flemish and my mother is French so because of that I always looked at it in other view then most people who grew up in Flanders.
I'm West-Flemish myself and still live here, but I also get my share of snarky remarks of blogging in English or reading stuff primary in English. If you have a website with some text in Dutch and you make a spelling mistake then you will certainly get (angry) mails about it. Or when you use an English word instead of a Dutch, for some that is another capital offence.
If that sounds ridiculous keep in mind we have people proverbial running after busses and filling complaints when the bus company dares to advertise something with English words in it.
Ans seeing how many Dutch related contests Flemish participants win, I have sometimes the feeling that we are better in Dutch than our neighbours in the Netherlands. So yeah the Dutch language is really important in this part of the world.
For some things I can see the benefits of being able to promote (or even force) the local language. I'm personally convinced that from a social POV it helps when your neighbour understands you and speaks the same languages.
But on the other hand in the global age we are living we shouldn't overestimate the importance of it. It sometimes depresses me if I see how much energy gets lost in those kind of discussions.
I mean, I didn't mind learning it, in fact I can understand it pretty well on paper. But understanding spoken Dutch/Flemish was nearly impossible, and I could not make proper sentences for a conversation.
The people were very nice (like, almost Hot Fuzz nice :-D), probably why the few who berated my Dutch speaking abilities stood out :-)
I heard it is a very difficult language to master if you are foreign. It took my mother some time to be fluent at it. Also have some former colleague's - Bulgarian/Russian - who even after 10 years of living here still have difficulties.
Fortunately a lot of people don't mind if you aren't fluent in it as they value the effort more then being 100% correct. And those who react hostile just don't understand how difficult the language is. Hell even natives have sometimes problems with all the grammatical rules the Dutch language has!
Hot fuzz is really one of my favourite movies, then again I'm a bit of an anglophile regarding movies/series/... . :-) I lived btw also in Blankenberge for 12 years and born in Bruges. Nowadays I live at the other end of West Flanders.
I don't know where you lived exactly, but i do live in West-Flanders.
West-Flanders is actually (almost) Dutch only, not a lot of IT in here and a lot of agricultre. I don't mind, but i suppose a lot of older people ( who don't know english) could have a hard time having a conversation with you :)
Lol, that's a half an hour drive from here.. Would be funny if you still were there :p ( considering i don't see much belgians here and especially people located in West-Flanders )
Immigration into Netherland is not trivial at all. As far as I understand, you can get a permit if either your salary is above a certain threshold (it's got to be a pretty good job), or your employer and convincingly argue that he can't find someone with the right skill set locally. Unfortunately, "programmer" may be the skill set here. I don't think there's much room for recognizing specific expertise. Then again, my impression is that there's a lot of demand for programmers; I don't know any unemployed ones, and tons of recruiters complain they can't find anyone.
So it's worth a shot. Looks like we could use more programmers here.
As a Dutchman I'm sad to report that the situation seems to be changing. Getting permission for your spouse to come here for example is becoming harder and harder.
For Highly Skilled Migrant visa, you shouldn't know Dutch. I have Russian friends there who already got Highly Skilled Migrant visa and they don't know Dutch at all.
Only requirement is to get job offer with enough salary.
I wonder how much they pay there, I work in France, and almost all the beginners devs, are payed between 30K and 25K annually that's about 2500euro / month minus 25% tax.
How is that possible if the foreigners need to get a Schengen visa? It seems that it's harder to get these days... I remember about a decade ago people getting Schengen visas to Hungary then going to Germany or anywhere else for work.
A schengen visa doesn't allow you to work. At the moment, it only grants you a stay of upto 90 days in the schengen area and for most countries, it's not possible to change the visa once you're in the country.
If you want to work, you're required to go back to your home country or outside the schengen area and apply for a work visa/permit.
All this is based on the assumption that you're a non EU/EEA national
That really doesn't stop those who are desperate for work. They "visited" Hungary or went to "buy a car", and then hightailed it to Italy, Germany, Netherlands to work illegally. Not sure how they got back home, probably deported and banned...
But in this case, to work legally, he'd need a work visa as you say, which I imagine is even harder to get?
Germany will pretty much extend you the red carpet: getting a visa takes a couple of weeks and the deal is pretty decent.
There are some societal problems with xenophobia and racism though. Probably affects Muslims the most. Avoidable by going to a major city like Berlin or Hamburg.
Development and tech jobs are not so easy to come by in Germany without B2 or better working knowledge of the language. You can come to Germany on a language visa, but you have to prove you have enough savings to live off of while you learn (and you can't work while you're on a language visa).
Work visas are generally only issued if you already have an offer. Which is hard to get unless you're in the country...
I suggest to check Berlin and Hamburg. There are lots of both startups and established companies (yesterday's startups) where German is not required. The biggest hiring now are Zalando, SoundCloud. But this is true for software engineers. If you are an electrical or mechanical engineer, sure, the best places are Bavaria or Baden-Württemberg, where German is mostly a must.
Where do you live? Maybe you're somewhere hit harder with the dearth of qualified applicants.
In southern Germany, engineering jobs have been difficult to find for my expat friends that don't know German. "Sehr gute kenntnisse auf Deutsch / Englisch" accompanies most any listing.
As a Dutch person I have to disagree with the suggestions to move to NL, I've assisted quite a few people with moving here and the situation with the IND is dreadful. I'd suggest Germany instead which seems to be on the whole a lot more welcoming to skilled people.
I've looked at NZ a bit as some friends live there -- it seems they've made it super, super easy to immigrate if you're in IT and can find a job in (4, 6?) months.
Easiest one is Sweden among western wealthy countries! I don't have university degree and I didn't have big salary. They gave me a work permit in one week!
In short, you only have to get job offer to relocate to Sweden.
Native Swede here. Welcome to Sweden! I take every opportunity to make a point of welcoming Russians to live and work here, while at the same time denouncing Russia's regime. Being afraid of the Russian Federation and her recent actions is not the same as being afraid of or disliking Russians. Just wanted to get that out...
It's really rainy and cold 8 months a year, if you live in Stockholm or south of it. If you live up north, it's at least cold and snowy and beautiful4 of those 8 months, instead of rainy. I love the summer in Sweden, but it's so short. The Stockholm winter climate just sucks, sorry. It has to be either colder or warmer for me to like. Mud and rain is not my thing.
There's plenty of work in Belgium/Brussels ;) . If you know angular / java, i can hook you up with someone who is looking to set-up a software development team at this moment
Singapore is another good option. I believe it has a pretty straight forward work visa system. Also a growing number of startups. Here are some job boards:
Hong Kong is also an option. Relatively lenient on the work visa as long as you are skilled. Similar with a growing number of startups and big corps hiring lots of developers.
Shoot me an email (in my profile) if you need help / are strongly considering HK.
I can relate to the OP, and there's something about once you've lived and worked in the software industry in California, that leaves a void that can't by filled by working in any other country. There's a value for and energy for the work that is never quite reached in any other tech ecosystem. It's really hard to put into words. I grew up in the Middle East, and am an Indian citizen. After my 7 years of studying+working in software in the US, and then having to leave due to similar visa issues, I was never as satisfied with working on software from a variety of other countries (Singapore, Korea, Oman, India, etc).
If you want to work without problems, Isn't Europe the steadier solution? I'm from Belgium fyi and Belgium is currently re-enabling "shelters" where fugutives of war can reside/stay.
NicoJuicy appears to be referring to asylum seekers. They don't need a visa, just an asylum claim. I don't know about Belguim but in the UK asylum seekers are not initially allowed to work.
On paper Uruguay has an amazing proposition for potential immigrants (and loved your ex-President with his humble lifestyle). However, only about 3,000 immigration visas are being granted each month from what I've heard, which is way lower than the demand for them.
The law is very generous regarding immigrants, but it still is somewhat hard because of the bureaucracy and paperwork.
It is extra hard if you come from some country they don't know much of, because you will be a first for a few kinds of paperwork.
I don't think knowing spanish is a requirement. At least I know of a few people who manage with only english, but you will enjoy life much more if you try to learn it. Uruguayans are nice, warm and very sociable, you will be missing out if you only talk to those that know english well enough.
Regarding work prospects, Uruguay is expensive and the salaries don't seem to reflect that. You will probably manage, but will have to be more frugal than someone in Australia. (There is plenty of good paying programming jobs though. Uruguay is the top software exporter in Latin America.)
All in all, Uruguay is underrated country. It has lots to offer and is growing everyday, but it still requires more effort to make a living than western countries. I wouldn't advice it for someone whose top goal is money, but I would strongly recommend it to someone who enjoys life's little pleasures, food, tranquility, friends, health, education and being away from almost all of the world conflicts.
Life long resident of San Francisco, and the Bay Area. My grandparents had a house in the Richmond District. My father grew up on those streets. This was before the gangs, but he drove those avenues like he owned them. They used to call my dad and his buddies, "The Avenue Boys", or something like that? He was a terror in his younger days. He mellowed out around 30?
He always used say, "I just don't know why people like San Francisco so much?"
Things my father didn't like: The weather. He hated cold, rainy weather, and hated wind.(It messed up his hair?). He didn't travel much, so he didn't know what real hot weather can to do a person's energy level. I used to tell him if he spent a week in Joplin, Missouri, he would never complain about the cold, foggy SF climate.
My father didn't like the cost of living in the city, but I never knew why. He didn't care about other people. Yes--he cared about himself. He really didn't have to worry about the costs because he inherited a house, and had a good Union job all his life?
He didn't like the diversity in the city. I liked the diversity of the city, but found that even though San Francisco seems pretty liberal, and caring; people walk over the poor/Homeless in order to get to their shindig(whatever that may be?). They vote liberal if it benefits them, but it can be a cruel city? Maybe all big cities are cruel?
I have noticed a lot of young females try to find a man in San Francisco, and I've seen/know a lot of lonely women. I guess there's a lot of reasons why? I have a ex-girlfriend who got sick of her social life, or lack there of, and finally moved to Silicon Valley.(I'm not sure if she ever found anyone?)
If you are a female, and considering moving here, and want to settle down and start a family with the right guy; I think it's harder than other areas? Some of you will vehemently dissagree?
Personally, I don't like driving/parking in San Francisco.
If you decide to buy a car in San Franciaco put a kill switch in it--even if you think no thief wants it, you will eventually will have someone break into your vechicle. My old truck was broken into so much, I emptied it completely, and just left it open--at least they didn't break a window to get to a cheap stereo?
The positives of the city: It's a union city, but you must get into a union. It's not impossible, but there's a lot of competition. You will get paid though; local 6 Electricians make $100/hr, or more? Bell Hops own homes.
The restaurants, if you are care? Personally, I don't care that much about eating out, but I'm not normal.
Rent control--if you are lucky enough to land in a place that has rent control? (I believe rent control is an essential for such a small city. The people I know who live in San Francisco all are under rent control, and wouldn't be there without it. They know they got lucky! )
The diversity. While I love the diversity; don't think people will welcome you with open arms. The better looking people are treated better. When their looks fade, they don't get any special treatment. I'm not just talking about the gay community either. (Maybe this is common everywhere?)
Actually, the one thing I really love about San Franciso is Ocean beach. It's free to park your car. I've never seen too many cops harassing people there. It's just a peaceful place. I used to drink a beer, in my truck, there after work.
To be honest, the city is great if you have money. I heard one little dude tell me, "SF is great for street smart, credentialed people!". He was in a bar desperately trying to impress his date--someone way out of this guy's league.
I recall, telling him he would last half a day in New York City. I still believe that. I still believe it's easier to "make it" in SF, than NY? (The little dude was really irritating me, but what I said to him was true--at least I thought it was?)
When Tuenti (the Facebook of Spain) was sold it was very very covered in the press (in Spain and in all Europe) although it was “only” a 70MM adquisition, is not how big is the sucesss or how much money is done, is how boring or how popular the startup is what makes how much cover the news get.
I completly agree with this: When Tuenti (the Facebook of Spain) was sold it was very very covered in the press (in Spain and in all Europe) although it was “only” a 70MM adquisition, as you say, is not how big is the sucesss or how much money is done, is how boring or how popular the startup is what makes how much cover the news get.
I am also from a developing country (Uruguay) but if any of my family ever has cancer all our concern will be in the emotional issues, the economic issue are already resolve: basically the health system coveres all diseases that you could get.
I do not understand the countries that don´t have this, it is just logical that if you pay when you are healthy you must be 100% covered when you are sick (without excuses or having to justify anything). The most strange thing is that what I pay for my health insurance is less of what I heard it is pay in USA (I pay 70 USD per month) but the difference is big: I live assured that whatever happens I'll be covered, no disease will make me lose my house.
The problem is not about beeing a developing country or not, it is about political decisions that obligate insurances to do what they must do.
Uruguay isn't really a developing country. Not like India, that's for certain. Anyway, the health care system in the US isn't something that was willed into existence. It came from a series of accidents and circumstances.
I am they client since 5 years ago, and I always saying my partner (after chating or e-mailing their support) that "please do me remember to never change of hosting company".
The host is very good but what is really wonderfull is their support (many times they even solve some coding errors I made, so my code works without problem)
