> If you care about performance that much you should be using neither.
Unfortunately by the time the coding industry understand this , we'll already have a fifth JS runtime that will promise to solve all the performance issues that exist within the 4 others...
Node.JS / Electron are some of my most favorite tech , but if I need performance I'll go with Kotlin / Go / Rust , it's just simpler IMHO.
Unfortunately?? Y’all don’t know how good you have it. I work in Python and desperately wish there were multiple competing legitimately used Python runtimes. It’s slow as molasses and not getting faster because CPython has an overwhelming monopoly.
Node.js is getting faster, for free, because things like Deno and Bun exist.
I'm predominantly a React/Node/TS person by trade (just what I'm paid for), but like you I see this as a round peg square hole situation.
There are too many front-end JS frameworks and now it seems to be leaking to the backend as well in the form of runtimes. I'm just waiting for one of these groups to say "productivity is priority 1, followed by performance/security etc."
Because JS is sort of a nice sedan at its best - truly nice. But if you want a Ferrari, you're at the wrong dealership - that's a "you" problem.
I wish there was more accountability for International Institution.
Saying "WHO Director Declare X" is obviously more accountable than "WHO said X must do Y" with a shadow comity deciding for 7 billion people and claiming it's not their fault when they are wrong...
> Isn’t this what the German constitutional court already said was illegal?
This seems to be exactly that.
The trick here is that it's not 'sovereign debt' as being held by one country , but rather it's a 'package of debt' with a normalize rate and more guarantee...
It's what Pro-EU have been advocating for decades , to avoid 'spread' within eu-zone...
I'm a bit fed up with those "IDE" for web attempts.
Every 9 Month or so , we get a new attempt at fixing Web Dev lack of Visual Feedback and productivity issues.
The typical coder behind this type of project get "Mental Fatigue/ Coder Exhaust" after 6 Months as they generally ignore the complexity behind building such product and end up abandoning the project....
There is a google graveyard , but we should also build an "Front IDE / Webviewer" graveyard.
The only one I recall without googling anything : Deco[0] and PreVue[1]
Well, is says that the website itself was build by the tool.
Non-semantic tags, divs instead of links, buttons instead of links, a lot of inline styles (which is a bad practice), deep nesting.
So inline styles will make caching css impossible, so high load times, not good for performance.
Deep nesting makes the problem even worse.
So the result is a slow bloated inaccessible code, but the result may look ok.
If all you want is a pretty picture - than yeah, it is a great tool.
I prefer this approach - https://github.com/seek-oss/playroom
Just create your components and add them to the sandbox and allow your designers to play with them.
Think he's point was that GUI products in this space is extremely difficult to get it right due to the explosion of edge cases and general complexity.
There have been other React IDEs in the past, and they've faded off into obscurity because of factors I am not familiar with but one in which parent's comment is alluding to, the hidden rise of technical debt for last mile problems and custom requirements.
Think we are dealing really with RAD vs traditional waterfall coding approaches. Both have ups and downs but the big drawdown is the stockholm syndrome effect that comes with relying on some other party for RAD.
Despite your negative tone, I think you have a point. There are many project like this. I'm working on another one at the moment and I have compiled a long list of similar projects. There is definitely a need for a tool that can create UIs visually. IMO such a tool needs to have interoperability with code, as in changes to the code reflect in the tool and changes in the tool make reflect back in the code.
We haven't succeeded in creating an intuitive and robust enough tool that accomplishes this, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible. It's a technical challenge which can be overcome.
At face value this seems like it could apply to a bunch of different categories (e.g., another text editor, another todo list, another chat app, etc...)? Yes, most new software in every category fails, but every once in awhile one succeeds, and that's how we make progress. The failures along the way just seem like a necessary byproduct of progress.
> Just a feeling of exasperation when seeing the product.
Well maybe you're not the target market then? It looks like a no-code rather than low-code effort, and I'm hazarding a guess that you're a dev and so ...
> It was never my intention to be "shitting" on anyone.
I'm sure that you didn't.
Here's the thing: this is a "Show HN" - somebody has been brave enough to show their new thing to the community. People vary - some are much more sensitive than average, particularly in a community like this that self-identifies as not-average, and will take the mildest criticism very personally.
If something's not for you, there's always the option of not commenting, or at least starting out by saying something encouraging to soften the blow.
It's not just fatigue. I also have such a project. It allows you to build using bootstrap, but with expressions, loops, conditions and a data store. It would be pretty easy to make a Vue version of it. It's a structural editor though, but it offers a graphical preview with limited interaction. But it's not good enough for the general public, and I'm not going to finish it, only to see the project linger somewhere in a obscure corner of the internet, or –worse- attract some attention and get a bunch of idiots making demands and threats.
While I can get on board with restricting 2-stroke engines in most cases (there’s still many situations where there’s no viable substitutes), I’m puzzled how they expect to have gas-powered generators be zero emission. That seems to defy the laws of physics and chemistry.
By definition, people use generators when there’s no source of mains power, whether that’s during a power outage or needing to use electric devices in a remote area, job site, etc. I don’t see how requiring such things to work on battery power (from where would they charge their batteries?) would be viable in any way.
That said, I wish they’d consider the use of alternative fuels (like propane), particularly for things like generators and larger equipment like riding mowers. Most 4-stroke engines can easily run on propane and dual-fuel devices like generators are already commonly available. Propane burns very cleanly, efficiently, is inexpensive, widely available, easy to store, and doesn’t go stale like gasoline.
All new car and truck sales in the state must be electric by 2035. San Jose had already mandated new residential construction to be electric only. There are solar incentives. It’s not just “wind blowers”.
Power conversion inefficiency, distribution matrix maintenance, demand pressure on local energy price, adding toxic batteries and more complex machines to the system, not accounted for.
Its about socialising and shifting blame onto the consumer rather than resolving the problem at source, ie with the corporations.
Corporations have lobbists to ensure that they will not be out of pocket as people transition to 'green energy' - in fact they hope that this will be a new growth opportunity.
yah, this is the type of thing that i’d nominally support (hate the twice weekly immersion in unburnt pollution wafting into my apartment), but it’s so far down the list of things that can meaningfully reduce pollution, it’s farcical. but lawmakers are going to pat themselves on the back and toot their own horns like they’d saved the world once again.
this kind of law is straight up distraction. energy production and transportation (and industry after that) are where we’ll have actual, material impact, and where our sole focus should be in this regard.
The vast majority of Today's software is built by "Corporate Developers" and "Corporate Business Owner".
Generally these people don't have any background in UX or UI or simply commonsense about software ergonomics.
An example would be Stripe , as an Architect in Banking I've spend years explaining to Executives and Business Owner to invest in
"Partner Experience" and good "Developer Ecosystem" , something they've always refused because the current model "Answer the Need"
This is the same problem , the people who are building are generally not using the product, the people in charge simply don't understand the "Added Value" of making a change to the current software so it's doesn't weight "150 MB" but rather "1MB" and has "auto installer" with it , "we have always done it this way , why change ?".
Add to that software legacy you end up with mess like those which are obscenely hostile piece of software.
> No US Company will never "outsource" to europe to save 50% per full time worker
To a point this has already happened, there are tonnes of American tech companies hiring in London. The cultural difference between the US and the rest of the Anglosphere is fairly minimal, which makes us plus Canada obvious choices for "nearsourcing". And if the planned UK-US free trade agreement goes through, this is just gonna accelerate.
They do though. They've been doing it for years. I mean UK's no longer in Europe so your point may technically be true but I've had plenty of recruiters contact me from big US tech co's who operate via EU/UK (sometimes shell) entities.
EDIT: to further qualify, those orgs base salaries have typically been in the range £120k-£150k if a quick scan through my notes is in any way representative. And obviously the FAANGs pay extremely well when you factor in stock but those figures are quite hard to come by.
Can confirm that 120-150 is mid-range base for a senior dev or devops roles in London; not just for fintechs in the City but from post A-round startups in Shoreditch and established companies around town. I have seen some outside IR35 contracting roles start to exceed £1000 per day in the job description (so you know a canny operator can be getting more for that contract.). 8-12 months ago everyone was holding their breath and not hiring while they waited to make sure they survived the Covid lockdowns, but now that things seem to have recovered it has become a sellers market as everyone tries to catch up on a backlog from not hiring over the previous six months.
>Long time ago there was a trend to outsource to india. It didn't end well from what I remember.
This is a narrative that often gets repeated on HN and reddit but IT outsourcing to India has been increasing in the past 20 years. IT outsourcing now makes up 8% of the Indian GDP, 50% of Indian exports, and is on the receiving end of half of the Foreign Direct Investment into India.
Within India people from other fields are rushing to coding bootcamps because salaries in IT outsourcing are so much higher than any other field.
I'll add to the narrative. IT outsourcing has been an unmitigated disaster for Engineering departments I've been part of. Losing control over your own hardware and network, putting it into the hands of a cut-rate operation managed by a non-Engineer, it seems obvious. Necessary changes are too late to matter or never happen. Resources get locked in a closet to "keep Engineers from messing with them" which means to reboot the crashed server it takes a call to somebody in a different timezone who creates a 'ticket' that gets prioritized later and eventually happens next Tuesday.
I waited a month for a RAM upgrade so I could scan GB log files from lab hardware and solve an issue. Long after the need was past our (formerly self-directed) local IT guy came with the new RAM. I mentioned I'd long since had to work around it, and he just grunted. He'd heard it all. And been looking for work since the change.
This experience repeated again and again and again, and you see how the 'legend' builds.
The author is largely overstating the job of software development and confusing "software engineering" with "software development"
SE is indeed a creative process that requires a lot of thinking , conflicting point of view and a often a crazy amount of research in order to do anything ( Database System , CLI etc... )
But for the rest , I'm an enterprise architect in banking , 90% of the project I'm in charge consist of "gluing" service together or adding a "screen" in the front end that calls an apis...
Startups like Bubble|0] have proven you can create web / mobile apps / apis without code ,
the only reasons we are still relevant today is for three reasons :
- There is no proper FOSS standard ecosystem to create codeless APIS and Applications
- There is no standard in the industry for the business and application layers
- Enterprise have "legacy" that is much cheaper to maintain with humans ( Devs + Architects )
rather than automate by R&D to create those ecosystem ( Labor Capital Substitution )
There is dozens of papers on 4th industrial software revolution ,
which at the moment won't happen because the tooling is simply not there.
Definitely 4G Software ecosystem largely automate 90% of the blue collar coding of today.
I dont know. Im a dev in banking and I see what kind of job you have. Sadly, an enormous amount of our time is not spend in transcoding your vision into beautiful lines of code, but fixing all the wrong assumptions you had, talk to the actual users and iterate over the problems of your model until we fix it into something workable, maintain day to day changes in the universe that make your original idea further and further from the need.
People like you work in projects but us we dont just glue things together for your royal pleasure, we sadly have to actually fit a day to day need.
Nice rebuttal, even though you might be projecting a bit at the parent commenter :)
I used to be a consultant in this space, and I can confirm the existence of these completely different bubbles. Ironically one of the root causes is how badly banks want developers to be interchangeable commodities.
> the only reasons we are still relevant today is for three reasons
Then how we automate creation of the standards? Don’t get me wrong, but now we aren’t punching holes in cards. In the future, people probably won’t be doing a lot of things, which are now typical menial tasks too hard or cheap to automate. As long as an AI with capabilities of reasoning and abstract thought comparable to a human isn’t here, there always will be a layer of tasks that is impossible to automate for one reason or another. Then it was card punching, now it is gluing APIs together.
Automation is mostly useful when you have a very narrowly defined process/standard with little variation over time. Unfortunately, this also requires for the one requesting the automation to know exactly what they want to get at the end of the process. How would one automate creation of a tool fitted to the particular way some business is operating? Video game development? Fixing badly documented code? Granted, many parts of those processes can be, and probably already are, automated away. But there are almost always elements that require a higher level understanding of the whole context these projects exist in.
I would equate it more to a hairdresser having switched from using scissors solely to being able to use a hair clipper. Their work was partially automated by a machine, but the process still is overseen by a human being.
Unfortunately by the time the coding industry understand this , we'll already have a fifth JS runtime that will promise to solve all the performance issues that exist within the 4 others...
Node.JS / Electron are some of my most favorite tech , but if I need performance I'll go with Kotlin / Go / Rust , it's just simpler IMHO.