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What are other options for ships if fossil fuels were phased out?

Big batteries? https://www.resilience.org/stories/2022-07-28/making-waves-e...

Hydrogen fuel? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen-powered_ship

Yeah, those options seem simpler.


Sustainable fuels. It's the solution long haul aviation is coalescing around.


Synthetic fuel has a lot of difficulties. One, it requires hydrogen as an input which is typically produced through steam reformation [1], a process that emits CO2. Electrolysis is less efficient and hard to scale as equipment is subject to intense corrosion.

Second, CO2 is at very low concentrations in the atmosphere. Direct atmospheric carbon sequestration is expensive and slow. The biggest startup in the synthetic fuel business is behind schedule and is struggling to solve these two main challenges [2].

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_reforming

2. https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/04/25/1050899/promethe...


We need to massively scale up green hydrogen production under basically any scenario where climate change is avoided. Hydrogen is an input for many industrial and agricultural processes.


Biofuels do not require hydrogen or atmospheric CO2 capture, well beyond growing plants.

Also something I learned recently is that the idea that biofuels are a no go because they compete with food is a simplistic deflection. Looking at Brazil as an example the biofuel crops like sugarcane and groundnuts are grown in marginal land in the south that wasn't being used for agriculture. The main driver of Amazonian deforestation is cattle ranching.


Biofuels produced by growing plants is limited by the available biomass. Brazil powers it's automobiles with biofuel, but not ships. And more importantly, Brazil is a huge country with massive amounts of arable land.


Ammonia?


Ammonia also requires hydrogen as an input. Ammonia is essentially a storage mechanism for hydrogen, eliminating the need for cryogenic or compressed storage. Basically, you need to find a carbon-neutral alternative to the Haber process [1] to produce ammonia as fuel.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process


The Haber process only produces CO2 if you consider the steam reformation to generate the feed hydrogen to be part of the Haber process. Technically, the Haber process itself is carbon-neutral, it's just that the hydrogen feedstock is almost never carbon neutral at the current time.


In the context of hydrogen storage, was it not obvious what "ammonia" refers to?

We do not need an alternative to the Haber process, the idea is to use electrolysis to produce hydrogen from sea water. There is room for improvement in the process but the technology is old and well understood.

There are other ways to store hydrogen, and it's far from certain ammonia will win out in the marketplace, but there are no serious alternatives to hydrogen as an energy carrier in the long term for this application. Everything else is just impractical and even more expensive.

Just like flight fuel, it has seen little change because it is quite heavily subsidized in its current form. The day we collectively stop and start taxing it like other fuels, the market will change overnight.


Which we have already. And that wouod be a great solution to the problem of storing electricity / energy. And it could even use, partially, existing gas infrastructure. Green hydrogen absolutey is a thing, bow we just need to deploy it at scale.


No, almost all of our ammonia is produced via the Haber process which emits carbon dioxide. Less than a tenth of one percent of our hydrogen is produced via green hydrogen:

> As of 2021, green hydrogen accounted for less than 0.04% of total hydrogen production. Its cost relative to hydrogen derived from fossil fuels is the main reason green hydrogen is in less demand. For example, hydrogen produced by electrolysis powered by solar power was about 25 times more expensive than that derived from hydrocarbons in 2018.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_hydrogen


I said we mist roll it out at scale, didn't I? The tech is there, and it works, now we have to build it.

You know, like Musk did with EVs and charging networks.


And as per the article, it's 25 times more expensive than existing hydrogen sources.

By comparison, the economics nuclear powered ships are not that much worse than conventional propulsion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_Savannah#Economics_of_nucle...


Of course not. The right mix is important.

But honestly, I reached the point where I claim the same "just build it" approach the pro-nuclear crowd is using regardless of data and facta. Especially since I know from a project I was involved in before COVID hit, that green hydrogen produced PV is absolutely feasible and commercially viable. To do so at tue scale needed requires political action and subsidies, and the tech has still a lot of room for improvement. I say this is good news.


> Especially since I know from a project I was involved in before COVID hit, that green hydrogen produced PV is absolutely feasible and commercially viable.

It'd be really great to link to that project and actually demonstrate this claim of commercial viability. We have at least one demonstration of a nuclear powered merchant ship operating over the span of a decade. Can we say the same for a green-fuel powered vessel?


Regarding a ship running on LNG:

https://www.ship-technology.com/projects/viking-energy-cargo...

The same vessel will be launched early next year with an ammonia fuel cell.

LNG can be produced using green energy, the actual engine doesn't care how the fuel was produced.

Regarding the green hydrogen project: it was a proposed pilot production site to produce green hydrogen. And the business case was actually positive. No idea where that project is now, tuey needed EU funding and that was hard to come by during Covid. And after, I stopped being a freelance consultant.


Liquified Gas can be produced using green energy, Natural gas was produced via "green energy" a very very very long time ago.

There are several green gas projects under way - capital plants take time - eg. the Gibson Island project won't be online and producing until 2026.

https://fortescue.com/what-we-do/our-projects/gibson-island


Synthetic methane is limited by the sources of carbon dioxide. Existing prototypes use either biomass or industrial byproducts for concentrated CO2. This is not available at scale. Biomass does not grow fast enough to sequester enough carbon.

Prometheus Fuels is the main player trying to do direct atmospheric sequesteration. But they've not succeeded yet.


Interesting but tangential to Gibson Island and other Fortescue Future projects as they're not attempting to sequester carbon or use biomass.

Andrew Forrest [1] has laid out plans to dramatically increase global green hydrogen production on the back of western australia's mining of close to a billion tonnes of iron ore per year (ie. experience of industry at large scale).

https://fortescue.com/what-we-do/green-energy-research/green...

The aim is to do whatever required to directly fuel existing mining truck fleets and bulk carriers.

[1] https://youtu.be/h1Y22iC90Xo?t=331


Ships running off natural gas are nothing new. LNG carriers have been propelled by natural gas for decades. The real challenge is producing carbon-neutral natural gas, which your link says nothing about.

Synthetic natural gas has all the same problems as green hydrogen, with the added challenge of sequestering carbon from the atmosphere. It's only been cheaply produced using byproduct CO2 from industrial processes. Which isn't actually carbon-neutral, it's just using CO2 that would have been released into the atmosphere anyway.


There you go:

https://www.valves-community.com/en/cryogenic-air-gases/synt...

But honestly, why am I doing your internet searches for you? And why don't you know any of this already?


That plant is not sequestering atmospheric carbon dioxide. It's using waste carbon dioxide from a nearby biomass plant. This is far less challenging than removing CO2 from the atmosphere.

But unfortunately this method does not scale. The amount of fuel produced would be limited by the amount of carbon sequestered by plants. You'd be cutting down forests faster than they replenish if you tried to fuel cargo ships with this method.

> And why don't you know any of this already?

I do, and unlike you I understand how existing power to gas prototypes are using biomass or industrial byproduct CO2 rather than direct atmospheric sequesteration. This is sidestepping the most challenging part of producing synthetic hydrocarbons on a large scale.

Prometheus Fuels are the main player in attempting to solve direct atmospheric sequesteration of carbon dioxide. But they've still not delivered on that objective.


And the last small scale nuclear reactor project, NuScale, was completely cancelled. So the amount of power produced by this reactor type seems rather limited, trending to zero even. And guess what, we need snall reactors to power ships, reactors we don't have (no, those half dozen Russian ones don't count).

See how this game can be olqyed in both directions? Difference being, all the real money, and industry, is going for green fuels and not nuclear power when it comes to ships. I tend to believe those people.


NuScale wasn't building maritime propulsion.

Again, how many ships have been powered by green fuels? How many have been powered nuclear reactors? One of those is infinitely larger than the other. One of these technologies has over half a century of real world usage.

Comparing white papers about synthetic fuels with the cost history of actual nuclear powered ships that were built and operated for a decade or longer is comparing apples to oranges.


Green fuel ships exist now. They're still in the early stages but plenty of big names in the business are putting their weight behind then.

Plenty of "normal" ships are already hybrid electric like trains, so swapping out the diesel generator isn't particularly a science project and doesn't affect the already electric propellors.

You mostly need a financial incentive to burn clean methanol, ammonia or whatever. That's the hard part.


List some examples of cargo ships powered by green fuels that are presently in operation. Not small prototype ships, but green fuel powered ships comparable in capacity to the NS Savannah and other nuclear powered civilian ships: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_marine_propulsion#Ci...


The first Maersk Methanol powered cargo ship just rolled off the production line:

https://www.marinelink.com/news/maersks-first-teu-methanolfu...

And all the ships they've ordered since 2021 can run on methanol:

https://www.maersk.com/news/articles/2023/12/07/maersk-to-de...


What does Maersk know about shipping or ship building, those bloody amateurs? /s


You just don't get it, do you? There is no readily available reactor tech suitable for commercial maritime use at the moment, none.

We do have technology so to produce green fuel for ships, and the whole shipping industry, from carriers to builders, is pursuing that in their goal of carbon neutral in 2050.

Of course there is still the possibility of those people being oart of a grand anti-nuclear conspiracy. Or they analyzed the tech and costs and came to an informed solution, one that is now global policy. You pick.


> There is no readily available reactor tech suitable for commercial maritime use at the moment, none.

You realize there's a nuclear powered cargo ship in operation right now: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevmorput

This technology not only exists, it's being used presently. And that's on top of the other three nuclear cargo ships that were previously built. We still have those proven designs.

> We do have technology so to produce green fuel for ships, and the whole shipping industry,

We do not. Existing synthetic gas plants are not capturing CO2 from the atmosphere. They are either using biomass or industrial byproduct CO2. The former of which does not scale, the latter is not truly carbon free it's just using carbon that would have been released into the atmosphere anyway. Neither is a pathway to producing green fuels at scale. Startups are pursuing atmospheric carbon sequestration, but it's proven elusive so far.


Solutions for green hydrogen generation from sea water do exist, and are even competitive depending on volume produced. One (!) nuclear powered cargo vessel, built as a specialized ship for fleet support in the Russian arctic seaa and capable of going through 1.5 meters of ice (thus requiring the power output of a nuclear power plant, same reason Russian icebreakers use NPPs) and bein used for supply missions to the Russian naval base in Murmansk, doesn't really count.

Again, those other cargo ships, NS Savannah, Otto Hahn and the Japanese one, were all economical failures, the Japanese one was even a technological failure. That makes a grand total of around 7 civilian maritime NPPs in operation, all Russian, with less than one built per year. Global shipping needs hundreds of those, at cost point competitive with alternatives to be viable. That tech, or capacity to build those numbers, simply doesn't exist. heck, that is even mentioned as a direct quote in the Reuters article that is being paraded around.


They were economic failures relative to fossil fuel powered ships - not relative to green fuels powered ships.

Again, if you're going to say that civilian nuclear maritime propulsion doesn't exist, because there have only been 7 such ships built by four different countries then green fuels powered cargo ships don't exist either. Again, how many cargo ships have been powered by green fuels? How many have operated for more than a decade?


Yes and while it may be early days for green hydrogen, it once was for solar and wind as well. And as it did with solar the European Union is leading the way in developing policy frameworks that will grow the industry.

https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/energy-systems-integratio...


https://youtu.be/crJst7Yfzj4

Not sure on the accuracy in these examples, but this video may be showing the words/min speed of the system.


Seems to not handle the ocean well.


It's due to the fact that they used satellite imagery to create the embeddings. The map is just for visualization. They probably used 5 or more bands of the satellite data which means each pixel is going to be slightly different due to things like depth, amount of silt in the water, amount of plankton....

Having worked on these types of problems before the model is doing a pretty great job matching pixels.


Thanks! And you are giving it too much credit here - it's just trained on one-hot encoded land cover (24 classes) from Copernicus. Using imagery directly would be # 2 on my list of to-dos after including elevation in the input data.


Oh so did you run the CNN on pre-classified data


I intentionally avoided using lots of ocean areas - this way I cut down the number of required sites for inference from ~100 million (at resolution 7 in the H3 system) to around 25 million.


Ok. But why?


For the app, no.

Server side, at a big enough scale, it might make sense for optimization, tuning, measuring, resolving weird bugs, etc.


`Rogule 2023-3-5`

Please zero pad month and day!


It is a shame the figures 5,6,7,8 break up the content of 2.5 Catalog, just to fit the figures onto pages.

Are pages even needed anymore?


theshovel.com.au is satire


> I have so many ideas

> I want to jump in, badly. How would one go about picking up the skills needed to create stuff like this?

Have you tried to make any of your ideas? If not, pick one and try to make it.


This is a great approach.

I want to build a benevolent, kind, caring and nurturing AI that one can go to for learning, understanding and support in navigating this world and being human.

I want to dump key knowledge into it that I have been fortunate enough to discern during my lifetime and knowledge from others that I regard highly. Kind of like what characterai is doing, but highly fined tuned and customized.

What skills do I need to do this? What tech do I need to learn? What books, moocs, etc. or even just words to look into? Just looking to be pointed in the right direction, I’ll take care of the rest.

Definitely not trying to reinvent gpt3 or anything like that, but looking to leverage these tools and customize and fine tune them highly


Isn't what you're describing simply "being a friend" with an encyclopedia? Why would you want to create a machine to do that if we're made like that?

In a sense instead of training a machine you could steer yourself to become that person. Call it being a life coach or a pastor. That's a lot less hassle than actual, true artificial intelligence (which needs to be invented as of yet).

I'm genuinely curious, not trying to piss on your parade or anything.


Not quite.

Here is my thinking, can’t be too elaborate because I’m typing on a phone keyboard, but here it is:

We live in the age of information. The amount of information out there is limitless.

This being the case, the importance lies in how a human being interfaces with this vast amount of information and which information out of the vast ocean of information is presented. Therefore curation is important. User experience is important. Discernment of what is actually valuable for a human being is also important. And how the user interacts with it is also important.

Chatgpt is one form of crafting this user interface/experience. There are other ways to go about it. The feel of the interface itself, how it presents itself to the human, and what exactly it presents are all key.

This is very different than say, an encyclopedia in which there is no discernment/bias of what is actually important for a human to know + very bad ui/ux.

And also, most importantly, a human will die. An ai model will not. A human can only speak to one person at a time. An ai model could speak to countless.


A very basic trait of our capitalistic system is that you'll always want more regardless of your actual, personal needs. You're always left wanting, always. And that's by design.

"Information" in the current sense (stats, news, (inter)national "politics") is a commodity that's being generated by the boatloads. Just because there's lots of it doesn't mean it's valuable in the sense that it actually pertains to you and your life.

So from my perspective you have the right ideas but wanting to satiate others with "information" is a bottomless pit (again, by design).

The information that is actually actionable is still right in front of us (at least in the west): it's local media (newspapers, radio, not TV). The slow, boring, local, tedious stuff. Apart from that it happens in associations, sport clubs, regional politics, NGO's.

For that, you don't need an AI.

Just fyi: I'm a doomscroller and news junkie so I'm not in a position to judge you. :)


I agree with many of your points, but I think you misunderstand my intent a bit. It’s not about providing more info. It’s about providing a nurturing friend to help one in life. In addition to this, this nurturing friend would try to convey some key and crucial points about developing as a human that I think are important to understand.

Humans need to get information/transmission of a few key points that leads to their own wisdom and discernment flourishing.

This bit of information would be built into my ideal ai, and it would convey it to human beings in the most beneficial way possible. It would even be built into its character.

And humans need a supportive and nurturing friend for the rocky road that is life.

Those are my intentions

By the way, the benevolent ai would advise you to stop taking in so much new info every day (doomscrolling, too much news), as it leads to disorientation, chaos, confusion, and discombobulation in one’s mind :)


Your enthuasism is great! Good luck with your plan!


OpenAI GPT-3 fine-tuned models as per their documentation


> Instead of: African-American

> Consider using: Black

Was this previously the other way around?


I'm waiting for the time we go back to some variant of the Latin word for colour black. At this point, it might be possible.


You‘ve got a point we’re almost back to ‘colored’ with all this talk about ‘people of color’


Negrx.


Calling some groups by a color is OK. Calling other groups by their color, not OK. Capitalization of the color should be used when referring to one group. But for a different group, capitalization is not to be made.

There is no logically consistency.

I was raised with the philosophy that calling a person Black was offensive and that I should always use the term African-American. I always respected this. But apparently this changed in the matter of two years. So not only are we faced with a logical inconsistency, but we are also on a language treadmill. It's creating landmines everywhere in general discourse.


> I was raised with the philosophy that calling a person Black was offensive and that I should always use the term African-American. I always respected this. But apparently this changed in the matter of two years

No, it was never right in the first place, it didn’t change in 2 years. Racial labels have always been a matter where there are a variety of strong preferences shaped by different personal experiences.

The actual rule is listen to abd be respectful of your specific audience; being aware of the general discourse and issues (of which, any particular author's preferred terminology alone is the least important bit) is part of doing that for general or new audiences.


Bloom County covered this pretty well in 1988 [0].

[0] https://2.bp.blogspot.com/3DPJBMraNogoZ4jNUjGALP_eaVRdd0RroT...


"Black" was similarly offensive ten years later. This was especially awkward in English speaking countries other than the US.


Colored used to be the preferred term, then negro, then black, then African-American, now we're back to "black" being preferred...I guess?

According to this article, it was various political/social leaders who pushed for new words.

https://www.ferris.edu/HTMLS/news/jimcrow/question/2010/octo...


Yes, in the 1970s plus or minus black was the preferred term.


Yeah, well, it sort of falls apart once people start pointing out that Elon Musk is the richest African-American.


But what about mix raced, or just lighter skinned “black” people?


Race is crude social construct. It's practically useless and needs to be phased out.


There seems to be very strong resistance to the concept of "racial color blindness". I don't think this will happen within our lifetimes.


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