Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login

So ... the exchange processing the trade -- where's it getting its liquidity from? If it can't satisfy the trade internally, it's getting buy/sell orders from elsewhere, correct?

Or flip this around: instead of telling me how HFTs can't arbitrage their trades, tell me what's actually happening. Because HFT's like deepwater oil drilling: it's an awfully expensive hobby to be doing if there's no profit in it. Where's the profit? And who's that coming from? Because in the world of the financial market, it is a zero-sum game, where one set of traders extracting value means another set isn't getting it. It's not as if they're building widgets for a value-added proposition.

I've seen the HFT trade price-seeking patterns -- bandsaw and crop circle visualizations from NANEX (this is now a few years old, so ancient history, but):

http://www.nanex.net/FlashCrash/CCircleDay.html

The point is that by being able to generate thousands or millions of buy/sell orders, across a band of price points, the HFT is getting in on any movement faster than any slower trader.

You're also not addressing straight out fraud where book is open, which is what I understand queue jumping to be. It's one thing if everyone's playing by the rules. Something tells me that's not the case. Oh yeah. That's my former officemate doing time at Club Fed for insider trading.




An exchange doesn't have liquidity, it's merely providing a matching engine/order book for outside traders to post orders.


For an exchange to transact a trade, it needs buyers and sellers.

What's the mechanism for matching buyers and sellers?

Does HFT provide a benefit to the HF trader? If so, from whom does that advantage accrue?

What's the net effect on a non-HFT buyer with and without the presence of HFT? For market orders? For limit orders?

What's the net effect on a non-HFT seller with and without the presence of HFT? For market orders? For limit orders?


In the simplest case, an order book is generated from all outstanding buy and sell limit orders, assuming none have crossed (if they have, the matching engine will immediately transact those orders). The price is discretized, so there is a minimum tick size, and each price has a FIFO queue of orders.

HFT provides liquidity to all other traders, including other HFT. They are paid in either the bid-ask spread (in the case that HFT is passive) or arbitrating bid-ask spreads between different exchanges, e.g. they aggress and take out an offer on exchange A which is below the bid on exchange B, providing liquidity to the standing offer on exchange A immediately instead of letting the prices disjoin.

The answer to the last two lines are the same -- there is no meaningful difference between a buy and a sell. The net effect is more liquidity than without any short term market making, for both market and limit orders (IMO market orders should simply not exist, but that's a small aside).




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: