I can appreciate the sentiment, but I actually like doing things. Don't get me wrong, I probably spend much more time than most in front of my computer, but even so.
I'm a photographer -> Two bags full of camera gear, tripod...
I'm a hiker/backpacker -> Backpack, tent, sleeping bag, hiking boots...
I would love to have less stuff, but the amount of myself that I would have to strip away for it to make sense is mind boggling to me. I go looking to get rid of stuff all the time, but even though I have a lot of things, I use all of them. I truly can't wrap my head around the idea of living a fulfilling life with only a laptop and whatever furnishings came with my apartment.
I have so much house maintenance stuff. For example, I only really need a ladder once a year. But I keep it around forever because when you need a ladder, you need a ladder.
I would love to not have to store and maintain all this stuff and to just request it on demand. Can someone solve that for me?
I'm embarrassed to admit that sometimes it's easier for me to just buy a new tool than to find the right one at the bottom of a tool box somewhere. It seems so wasteful...
Same goes for all my hobby stuff too. (I too have a huge bag of mountain climbing gear that gets used only twice a year.)
In my neighborhood we all borrow each others gear, whether it's home improvement stuff, or occasionally used outdoor sports gear. Any startup in this space would have to establish the "trust" feature of a sharing community, which is a feature that a friendly neighborhood has built-in.
You might be on to something if you find an easy way for people to publish their inventory of stuff to a trusted group of neighbors, maybe with a smartphone app to take pics of the gear? That way you leverage the trust that already exists, and just make the publishing and discovery process easier.
We use Nextdoor and our street's email mailing list for this all the time.
EDIT: Nextdoor and email lists only provide the in-group communication solution, not the inventory solution. It would be interesting to see an inventory solution that worked with a variety of communication services.
Apart from all the other issues mentioned in this thread, one of the issues that stymies products like this is the asymmetric nature of delivery networks. From a user experience perspective, it's a lot easier to deliver something TO a person's house than it is to deliver something FROM a person's house. After your first attempt trying to return a tool, you become discouraged from ever trying again.
But you know what, we actually have a highly efficient system for transporting packages from people's houses, it's called the trash and recycling network. I wonder if there's an opportunity there to leverage this network... Imagine if returning something was as easy as wrapping it in a special plastic bag and then throwing it in your recycle bin. On the truck, special sensors would detect the presence of the bag and shunt it to a separate storage area of the truck and, from the depot, it would be placed in the conventional mail stream and sent to where it needed to be.
Probably crazy unworkable but fun to think about :).
Yeah, and the stuff they rent is probably mostly old junk and beat to hell because renters don't take care of stuff. It's probably a lot cheaper to just go to Harbor Freight and buy a tool there than to rent something.
This really varies. On numerous occasions, I've gone to the rental place, taken one look at the machine, and then immediately left said rental place. Once, I had to wait for the dude to take the brand-new backpack leaf blower out of the box and pour in the first bottle of oil. I had no problem waiting that time. It's always a good idea to have the dude start the motor before you load up.
Harbor Freight is great for hand tools you'll use occasionally, or power tools you'll use rarely. There's a reason people who use those tools for a living shop elsewhere.
The last mechanic I talked to said Snap-On tools had become overpriced junk, and Harbor Freight tools were a much better value. This is for hand tools, mind you. All the hand tools I've gotten from HF in the past few years have been excellent, better than anything I ever got from Craftsman (except torque wrenches; I haven't tried HF's, and my old Craftsman torque wrenches are excellent).
Yeah, if I were a professional, I wouldn't use HF power tools either. But we're talking about DIYers here, not pros. And even good-quality name-brand tools from Lowe's/HD are a better value than renting.
The only place I can see where renting a tool makes sense is for something pretty large, that costs at least $500. For instance, a ditch digger is something I would rent, not buy: it's big, needs maintenance, and probably costs several thousand dollars new. And it's not something I'd need to use much, probably only once. But power tool that costs $80? Just buy it. I'll come out way ahead buying it, using it, and then reselling it on Craigslist than renting it.
I've never used a Snap-On tool; that always seemed like a scam. I have an HF torque wrench that's got to be 10yo by now. It still works, but I don't really ask much of it. Bicycle stuff, usually, with an occasional top-mounted oil filter on a diesel engine (the latter only because everything is plastic now, and one wants neither to break something nor to have oil dripping all over; in the days of steel I would have just gripped a short wrench halfway off the axis and pulled hard). If I were rebuilding transmissions I'd have a good torque wrench. I've broken enough wrenches that I can pretty much tell when it's going to happen, and now I stop before that point. For that reason, it's probably true that an HF wrench is at least 90% as useful as any other. I have yet to really pull on an HF wrench that I would call "excellent", however. Various hammers and chisels I've purchased have all lost their shape after just a bit of hard use.
I have HF power tools, but there's something slightly off about each of them, whether that's a flimsy plastic body, a saw blade arbor that moves around, or whatever. I don't use any of them on even a monthly basis. If I did, I would upgrade. Everything my brother has borrowed for a job has quickly failed. He doesn't buy much at Harbor Freight.
I have a Craftsman cordless drill that has lasted forever; it predates the tiny b&w Makita drills all the contractors have been using for years now. Since the battery is old-fashioned dry cell rather than lithium, I just took it to Ellis Battery for a rebuild when it failed.
>I have yet to really pull on an HF wrench that I would call "excellent", however. Various hammers and chisels I've purchased have all lost their shape after just a bit of hard use.
The HF socket wrenches and sockets I've used have been at least as good as any Craftsman competitor, even from over 20 years ago.
However, for chisels, if you're talking about for woodworking, that's something I doubt I would buy from HF. For proper woodworking, chisels have to be incredibly sharp and hold an edge, and that requires high-quality steel. I guess if you're just installing some door latch plates a HF chisel might be OK though, but I'd get something nice for doing any serious woodworking because having really sharp chisels is critical for quality work.
This. We don't need a slew of startups to solve this problem; it's called talking, and it can be done via any of several existing {meat,cyber}space communications channels.
(I'm hardly a Luddite; rather, I think there's a lack of appreciation for basic interpersonal communication as a powerful technology in its own right.)
I don't remember where, but in recent memory I saw an article about an apartment building where residents would mark their doors with icons representing appliances/tools they were willing to share - a simple solution for an easily solved problem. (See also: rideshare boards on campuses, bulletin boards and flyers in local shops, local community centers, etc.)
Talking & organizing has it's own costs. Something like uber or airbnb could theoretically be done by talking and coordinating, but the organizing software that makes it seamless makes it something ubiquitous.
Coworkers might be another good trust network to build off of. It also has the benefit of you essentially being required to know your coworkers, while you aren't guaranteed to know your neighbors.
Seriously, this. I can't tell you how many folks I know who have never met their neighbors, don't even know their names. That is so strange to me, I am not especially social, but I know quite well all neighbors in both directions for at least 3 houses. I can say this sort of thing comes in handy in the event of any emergency (you both know who to trust and who to avoid..)
This model isn't great for a lot of things. Snow blowers and lawn mowers, for instance - they will break down at least once a season once you cross a threshold (single digit) of users.
>I wish there was a startup in this space.
I have so much house maintenance stuff. For example, I only really need a ladder once a year. But I keep it around forever because when you need a ladder, you need a ladder.
I would love to not have to store and maintain all this stuff and to just request it on demand. Can someone solve that for me?
Actually there is a sorta famous example of a startup that tried to do just that -- or close, they tried to build a social site for people to easily borrow whatever (ladder, chainsaw, etc) from other people in their area.
Turns out, most people said it was a great idea and encouraged them, and they even got lots of signups, but people really don't like dealing with strangers for such things, and nobody used the service in practice.
A, found it:
>There was just one problem. As Adam Berk, the founder of Neighborrow, puts it: "Everything made sense except that nobody gives a shit. They go buy [a drill]. Or they just bang a screwdriver through the wall."
What I want is a delivery version. I'd pay $xx/month for access to tools and other household items I rarely need along with $x per delivery and pickup to not have to go get them.
The cost of renting something and having to pay for delivery is probably going to be more than just buying it outright and owning it after that for whenever you need it again.
Plus, the rental company is undoubtedly going to charge you jacked-up late fees when it turns out you don't get your project done on time and need to keep the tool for another day.
When it's so cheap to just go buy a workable tool from Harbor Freight, or a really nice tool from Home Depot, why bother renting some beat-up, abused, crappy tool from a rental place? On top of that, when I need a tool for something, I sure as hell don't want to sign up and have to wait a week for it, I need it now to fix something. I may not use it often, but when I do need it, it's invaluable to have it immediately ready to use.
You've identified why I have so much clutter in my garage and house. I do exactly this - it's cheap to buy most of these tools compared to the cost of renting, and there's a surprising amount of overhead and liability in renting stuff.
That said, I do think there's something off about my accounting. I live in SF - the tool may cost X dollars, but what's the yearly rent on the square footage that the tool occupies? Just to sit there unused 99% of the time.
I'm starting to rent things not because it's cheaper but because I'm beginning to understand the psychological effects of having too much clutter in a relatively small house.
But yeah, renting is really expensive with all kinds of little gotchas, and it's a surprising hassle, too. Almost as much of a hassle as having a lot of clutter around.
Instead of renting, it would probably make more sense for you to buy the tool, use it for a while, and when you're done with it, resell it on Craigslist. Given all the hassle that goes with renting (as you mentioned), reselling on CL is probably no more hassle. And you'll wind up saving a lot of money too.
>What I want is a delivery version. I'd pay $xx/month for access to tools and other household items I rarely need along with $x per delivery and pickup to not have to go get them.
This reminded me of a startup idea that I have, I think one of the biggest items that could be rented out would be generators. Right before a storm hits deliver the generator and once power is back up, pick them up.
Generators are likely not to be available right before a storm hits. Ownership is really the only model that works for items that are needed at exactly the same time, by everyone who would ever need them.
This is a big problem with the community sharing model. It seems like at least twice the hassle of craigslist exchanges since you have to coordinate two physical meetings rather than one. Then there's the whole issue of the borrower isn't quite done with the object yet, please try again next week.
+1 for DTL. I've used them quite a bit for projects and had great luck. Currently have been borrowing tools to rebuild a motorhome and without them I would be storing and laying out a significant investment of tools. I would pay quite a bit more per year for a "Netflix of Tools" if delivery were fast and reasonable.
Prior to our modern atomized ways of living as individuals instead of parts of a community, most people solved this problem by getting to know one's neighbors and community members and borrowing amongst each other.
Doubting this. I lived with my grandparents for awhile in the 1980s, in their neighborhood which was established in the 1950s. I remember everybody had their own everything - tools, lawnmowers, snowblowers, ladders etc. Borrowing happened, but there were socially acceptable reasons for it - something was broken, you just moved in from the city and hadn't bought everything you needed yet, etc. Anyone who habitually borrowed the same thing over and over just because they didn't want to buy it would have been ostracized.
That's exactly how it worked in my community when I was growing up. But-- people had significantly lesser buying power and tools were significantly more expensive.
So it was always getting it from a friend or a friend of a friend.
Consequently there were many cases where relationships would get tense because of late/non-returns.
Yeah I tried renting stuff like camping gear, instead of owning it. The University athletic services was glad to rent me old-fashioned heavy tents and so on. For about $50 per campout. It was about the same price to buy good stuff, and use it a dozen times!
I'm suspicious that an own-in-common club or organization would end up asking me to pay too much for old stuff. It'd be hard to avoid - they'd want to depreciate it all or whatever. A hard startup to invent.
I think you're underestimating the cost of good equipment. Yes, a bunch of fragile Coleman gear at Walmart will all fit into that budget, but it would be quickly destroyed if put through the "government mule" life cycle of rented goods.
That "fragile gear" is lightweight and a lot better for hauling on backpacking trips. If you're not a gorilla and are careful with stuff, it'll last for decades. I had a cheap nylon tent that was probably 25 years old when I finally got rid of it; I sold it for $5 in a garage sale and it was still in great condition even though I used it extensively in Boy Scouts. I replaced it with a newer, nicer nylon tent that I barely use.
No, these tents probably won't hold up well with careless renters who don't care about taking care of stuff and abuse stuff. So why should I pay the same amount as a brand-new nylon test for some crappy old canvas tent with mold, which weighs 10 times as much, just so I don't have to own a tent? It makes no sense at all. I'd rather have a nice, clean tent that I own, and I can grab any time someone wants to go camping with me. Tents don't take up that much space when folded up. And even if the Walmart tent only lasts 3 trips, you'll still be saving money over the crappy rental tent.
Pffft. I bought 3lb backpacker 2-man tents on sale for $200. Used them carefully, they lasted for 25+ trips.
Oh! I see - yes those tents were fragile and high-tech and would have probably lasted less long in general use. So that's part of the problem - rental to the public is hard on equipment. Again, its hard to see a startup model here that would work.
Somewhat offtopic, how often did you have to re-seal the seams on those? I brought out some nice old tents a summer or two ago that had served me well as a kid and sadly found that it was as waterproof as a sieve.
Never done it. Those backpacker tents were made of some strange tacky fabric that felt like gel?! Anyway they lasted 5 years and then got lost (loaned out and never came back)
I think that's what omni is trying to solve. Store your stuff and have it delivered on demand. Then the next stage would be to allow you to rent it out. Cool idea...
I am surprised big box hardware stores do not have programs to rent out bigger ladders. Personally, I do need a smaller ladder frequently, though. Community/family can be a good way to share tools, too.
I have re-bought tools/parts I was fairly certain I already had, but simply did not have the time to sift through things to find. Especially for home projects that I had a small window to work on and I did not do my due diligence ahead of time to look for them.
> I am surprised big box hardware stores do not have programs to rent out bigger ladders.
They do. I rented one several months ago to change some can lights on a 15' ceiling. They have basic power tools as well, though the selection is spotty from store to store.
> "though the selection is spotty from store to store."
Need a middleman "broker" with accurate local data and up to the minute stocking data. There's two "close" home depots and a local lumberyard with rentals and a regional contractor supply and a local contractor supply. Which of those five rental agencies has a stump grinder for rent tonight? Check back with me in 30 minutes. Would be nice to have an app that could tell me instantly...
Dougald Hine had a great talk I saw on Vimeo, I believe (it was ~7 years ago), where he went in depth on Ivan Illich's life and work, and he also mentioned how monks used to keep books hidden in nooks and crannies spread about, and they shared their locations and movements with one another in a p2p fashion after hiding them, using them, and getting more info about them and their users.
Also, before couchsurfing.whatever, I head from a very early adopter, that in his youth, his community kept notebooks of who had a couch, where, and how to reach them. Then you could find hosts with the same algorithm as a DHT-like PageRank kinda thing (friend of a friend of a very good friend... said ___; is it true, can we ___?).
So, I guess that for Derek (and other people who already have what they need and have comfort in life), a good gift from these people he mentioned would rather go to someone else, directly, who he would in some way see a benefit, indirectly or very indirectly.
The hard part about renting big ladders is transporting them. There are plenty of big-name places like Home Depot or Lowes that rent out their equipment like that.
One of the local Habitat for Humanity Re-Stores here in Des Moines has a tool library that you can use for $200/year (or less depending on income). I just recently moved into a rental home and am virtually tool-less, so I'm considering it for the upcoming summer.
The problem is that there's no easy and workable way to share most stuff, even though it'd be nice so we didn't need to own so much stuff.
Tools, for instance: if something breaks in your house, you need a tool right now if you want to fix it. Your toilet stops up? You need a plunger, NOW. You sure as hell don't want to sign up to borrow or rent one and wait a week for that. And do you really want to use someone else's plunger? What if they didn't clean it after using it?
There's all kinds of problems with the borrowing and renting models. People don't take care of stuff they borrow/rent (and some people don't take care of their own stuff). People don't return it on time. They break it. And what kind of stuff can you borrow/rent? A lot of times, it's substandard junk, or otherwise not up to your standards. What if you want to rent a table saw instead of buying your own, but the only model available is some plastic piece of junk with horrible accuracy? You might as well not even bother with a crappy saw like that if you're trying to do any real woodworking. This is typically the case with tool rentals: the tools they rent out are barely usable, and if they ever were, they're so abused when you get them that it's not worth the rental fee. Better to just buy your own, so you can get something good, and with so little use it'll stay in good shape for a long time, and be ready to use whenever you need it. Sure, it means you have to haul around more stuff when you move, but it also means you can do a lot of things without going through a lot of logistical challenges, or having to pay a lot of money to rent stuff, of having to wait.
You said you have a bag of mountain-climbing gear you rarely use. That stuff is, I presume, gear that your life depends on. If a carabeener (sp?) fails, you can fall to your death, right? Would you want to rent some ropes and other gear that you don't know how it's been treated or maintained, or could be some cheaply-made junk? What are you going to do after you fall to your death when something breaks, sue the rental company? And how much money would you actually save by renting this stuff instead of owning it anyway?
There's a place in Berkeley CA. I forget the name, but they loan out stuff like tools, and I believe camping/sporting stuff. They run it like a library. I always thought it was a great service.
Although I can't help you out with the ladder problem. My company is working to help people like yourself live more and own less, with experiences and services to fuel your lifestyle.
Eventually, we may move into the problem you described of renting out gear that you may only use once or twice a year. Which was the main problem, when me and my roommate were staring at a very expensive kiteboard and mountain bike that was just collecting dust, and never getting used. So I feel your pain on that note.
To start with we are offering a range of products and experiences which you never have to think about owning (or collecting dust) Some of these include - skiing, golf, camping and tennis.
We are launching March 10th in San Fransisco, and Bay Area. If you are outside of this, you will be the first to know when we expand to your area, and you can always download the app for free- this is us - http://share-hub.launchrock.com/
Sorry can't solve your problem right now. Hopefully one day we can :)
Give me a "house improvement standard kit" and a well thought-out place to store it. A well-organized compartment, decent-quality tools that actually make sense, some extendability, and make it take up no space space at all whenever I don't need it. Charge $1000 (€1000) for it, and everybody will buy it along with their house once you've built a brand.
Oh god no. I've been collecting tools for decades. When I need another one, I buy it. The last thing I need is a giant box of which I already have 80%.
I am mingling with a startup idea (that I can't really build now, but perhaps in 4-5 years, for various reasons) that would solve your problem; however, I concluded that the only way to solve it is to live in a crowded area (like in a condo) and have a dedicated storage area for this.
I can't think of any other way to efficiently and cost-effectively handle this.
I have always wanted see a business have a facility that operates similar to a fitness gym. Except instead of weights and exercise equipment, the facility would have table saws, and other power tools.
There are so many tools that I own, that I really only need once in a blue moon. I would totally buy a subscription to a facility that allowed me access to these kinds of tools.
There are probably a lot of legal implications with renting power tools out to the public. But I still think it would be awesome.
I've often thought that it would be great if someone provided a storage-unit-as-a-service. Send me a box that I can pack full of winter gear and send back, for example. Then send it back to me next winter, and I'll send in my summer stuff. Seems like shipping is still too expensive to make something like that work, esp when you start looking at things like ladders and lawnmowers and snowblowers.
Me too. I wish there were an "Uber for photography lenses", an "Uber for power tools", and so on which deliver these items to you on demand, pick them back up when you're done, and charge appropriately you for the rental.
Yeah I guess. On second thought, perhaps it would be a step up if I could "rent anything" from one app. Imagine the selection of Amazon and the convenience of Uber in one interface.
On third thought, maybe Amazon could just do this ...
This is a service that's provided around here by my local hardware store, the local big box stores like Home Depot and Lowe's, and local specific equipment rental services. You can get indoor ladders from the local paint store.
These examples really emphasize how much it depends on the person and the hobbies/interests involved. In recent months, I've become very interested in arcade and pinball history. Those hobbyists are really wrestling with collecting individual cabinets at $200 to $1000 a pop versus just setting up a single MAME cabinet. Many fans are going MAME (storing 3,000 games in a single cabinet), but the hardcore hobbyists are often outright hostile to the idea and denigrate those who post pictures of their custom cabinets to the forums. For myself, the difference between a genuine cabinet and a PC running the same ROM is negligible.
Now, with virtual pinball, people are starting to encounter the same issue. I bought a real pinball machine recently and plan on squeezing another into my home eventually because the virtual machines simply don't feel the same. At the same time, I setup a virtual machine with 50-plus tables on it that I perpetually tinker with and try to improve with custom controls, larger screens, and eventually digital back-glass.
We have to take it on a case-by-case basis. I remember when Marvel started reprinting and digitizing all their old comics in early 2000. Issues in my collection went from $100-$200 to $10-$20 in value very quikly. I hang those old issues on my walls as art, but when I want to read them, I go to my tablet.
You can try to take on hobbies that don't require a lot of stuff.
Also, if you can keep the stuff for a hobby together on a storage bin is easier to put away when you loose interest and bring it back when you want to do it again.
That's a good point, though the article addresses it explicitly.
>I’m not saying anyone else should be this way. Back when I was a full-time musician, I had a whole recording studio full of stuff. But these days, everything I want to do is on my laptop. If I had a different hobby, I’d have a different situation.
And even if you have a hobby that requires things, receiving them as gifts is not a good idea. Can you imagine musician who received his musical instruments as gifts instead of carefully choosing them himself?
Yup. Wishlists are a wonderful solution to this problem. You indicate which specific item you want, perhaps with a justification for why, and someone has the option of getting it for you, or not. Or just giving you some cash to go towards getting that one particular item.
Of course, gifts in the $300+ range are relatively rare, so most musicians won't usually have to worry about someone getting them the wrong, but high enough quality you can't return it, item.
Somehow my sister collected enough gift certificates when I was a kid to get a nice viola. (note to non-music nerds, not a misspelling, its kind of a big violin)
The music instrument market is weirder now and uses cost as a race and class filter to keep the wrong people out. Collecting $25K for a conservatory class instrument in gift certificates in 2016 is a bit unreasonable, but "in the old days" they gave out scholarships based on ability and didn't use the art as a filter on finances, race, and class like they filter for today. Even today you could collect enough gift certs to get an instrument for the joy of music and learning, just not to get a scholarship.
> Collecting $25K for a conservatory class instrument
Wow. Considering you can get a perfectly functional violin for around $100 on Amazon (there's a great YouTube video where a professional violinist picked one up to trash it and ended up recommending it), $25,000 is a lot of money for an instrument.
Minimalism is not a practical matter; it's a principle, a culture, and a mindset.
If you observe the amount of things people throws away when moving to a new house, you'll realize that how many things are needlessly accumulated. You can bet that the same things were really needed before buying them.
I'd say that the most minimal application of minimalism (this is the idea of the post) is to recognize in advance that one don't really need them.
Expanding the concept of minimalism, I wouldn't say you don't need much of the stuff you're mentioning, rather that a minimalist "clone" of you could enjoy and/or perform (depending on the goals) the activities you've mentioned, with probably half of the equipment.
Besides, there are only the two extremes of having plenty of tools, and living only with a laptop and furnishing.
It's not so much a question of what you throw away when you move as it is a question of what you're using regularly. I'll be moving for work soon, and I'll be throwing away/donating/discarding quite a few things that I will then buy on the other end. It's just not economical to ship a mattress, unless you're packing things into a UHaul, and that's not the only example. I would happily rail against the concept of disposable goods, but that's not the same thing.
Minimalism in the sense of the web/hacker/milenial trend doesn't mean the same as minimalism in art or other domains. Not owning physical things is a big part of it.
I think the key problem with "stuff" is when "stuff" starts running your life and dragging you down.
People clearly have different thresholds for too much stuff, but there is one universal indicator for when you definitely you have too much stuff: You have too much stuff if you can't "put everything away".
By "put everything away" I mean be able to put everything away and then later find it without rummaging or unpacking boxes. It means having tables with nothing but permanent fixtures on them and shelves where everything is visible at a glance. It means, often, that getting new stuff means discarding old stuff to make room.
It takes a long time to get to that point, but it looks great and inspires creativity.
A very insightful observation. That wasn't intentional. Upon reflection I think that everything I own outside of a small collection of half a dozen pieces of art could be classified as some kind of tool. That makes me feel somewhat better about the amount of "stuff" I have.
The line between tool and stuff is quite often blurred.
Lots of tools exist only to facilitate a very specific task and can be replaced by a less specialized one. Its not always as efficient but most of the time its enough. A knife can peel, mince, cut, etc. It can easily replace lots of 'stuff' in the kitchen.
That doesn't match my experience at all. I can't recall ever seeing a big box of unused tools. I mean who goes out and spends a bunch of money on tools for no reason?
99% of the time, people buy tools when they have a need for them.
Really? Never in my life have I ever bought a tool except when I had a specific need to use it. I can say with 100% confidence that I have used every single tool I own at least one time.
Agreed. I train Brazilian jiu-jitsu, which means I need to have gis, fight shorts and rash guards. That's not really "clothing", it's equipment, and I can't buy it just anywhere. I also train powerlifting, which means I have a rather serious belt (https://inzernet.com/detail_belt.asp?PRODUCT_ID=FOREVERBELTS...), Olympic lifting shoes, chucks, and wrist wraps.
There are a few programming and writing projects that I've been wanting to finish for years.
So when I look at a new hobby or interest, like the ones you describe above, I think, “Ah... sounds fun... some day... But first I have to finish what I've started.” Not having the stuff around helps keep me focused.
The pain of not finishing my existing projects is greater than the pleasure I'd get from the new hobby.
(FWIW, the few things I own include the hiking gear you describe.)
Of course, it's possible to "do things" that don't require a lot of extra things. Writing, walking, meditating, listening to music, reading, making out, drinking tea, running, dancing, making electronic music, math, logic, praying, thinking, debating, making movies with your smartphone (one such movie recently won a documentary award), origami, chess, baking, cooking, lifting at a gym, hackerspace participation, movie club, podcasts, philosophy, swimming, concerts, penmanship, cards, geocaching, juggling oranges, composing, whistling, singing... programming... lots of possibilities.
Some people live ostensibly fulfilling lives owning nothing but a robe and a bowl.
To take just two examples to add to my list above:
Tea drinker -> Three different tea sets, which get used variously depending on what kind of tea I am drinking.
baker -> An entire kitchen full of tools.
Perhaps I'm taking the article too literally, but if he really only has the things that came with his apartment, so clothes, a laptop, and headphones, he really can't do most of the things on your list, at least not at any kind of level beyond the most casual.
It's interesting to take a view that contrasts with Sivers' article and most of us on HN -- that of someone on the edge of homelessness. I remember reading Barbara Ehrenreich's Nickel and Dimed and thinking about cooking and baking. When she was living in a motel room rented by the week, it was hard to cook healthy food because she didn't have the budget to buy a pan, a pot, a spatula, some silverware, a mixing bowl, etc. Besides the budget, there was the problem of storing them in a precarious living situation. They're annoying to schlep.
To start off my minimalist college years, my mother brought me to the local Goodwill where I bought one fork, one knife, one spoon, one bowl, etc. Had to add chopsticks to get a really complete eating set, but these got me off to a good start. Even this minimalist set (chopsticks, knife, spoon, bowl, wooden mixing spoon, pot) require space, and they don't allow you to bake cookies (need a baking sheet!). I was nowhere near homeless though I could fit all my belongings into one room as wide as the length of a twin bed.
Sivers knows that if he wants to make pastries, he can buy or borrow pastry-making equipment -- just as I can. So he doesn't need to keep it around. Those with little by necessity rather than choice don't have that confidence.
Not wanting stuff is for people who have access the stuff they need.
I have some nice tea things too, but when I'm travelling, I make tea with whatever's handy. The thing I mostly use for brewing is a gaiwan, which is basically just a cup with a lid, and that's very easy to substitute. And I used to bake quite a lot of bread using nothing but a couple of mixing bowls and an oven.
So not to be argumentative or anything, but beyond clothes and a pair of swim shorts, the only things you need to do everything on my list, and that wouldn't be found in a typical furnished home, are: a decent pen, a deck of cards, and some oranges...
To expand on baking, you're going to need a huge variety of pots, pans, baking sheets, pie pans, cake containers, cupcake trays, mixing bowls, a stand mixer, a handheld mixer, rolling pins, ingredients, etc. I know because my sister is really into baking and she has all of that stuff and more; a whole kitchen full. By the time you're all said and done you're in for over $1,000, and a bunch of cupboards are full.
The same applies to a bunch of the rest of hobbies that you mentioned. If you only care about doing something superficially, then sure, you don't need equipment. But to do something well? For example, making good podcasts requires a full setup of audio engineering equipment -- mics, mic stands, various digital audio equipment that plugs into a computer, etc. Similar for running; the people I know that are really into it have all sorts of shoes, GPS running watches, entire wardrobes of running gear (which you NEED to prevent chafing), reflective clothing, heart rate monitors, travel gear to bring with you when traveling for races; the list goes on.
I've been into a bunch of hobbies in my life and every single one ended up accumulating significant amounts of gear. Even just being into programming or gaming, I've ended up with various mechanical keyboards, mice, computers, computer parts, displays, and more.
I'd like to emphasize that I have absolutely nothing against gear.
But I'm a little surprised that people continue to insist that no, one really needs lots of stuff.
It's just not true that you need a huge variety of stuff for over $1,000 to bake bread. Think about it. The history of bread goes back thirty thousand years. You don't need a cupcake tray. You don't even need a baguette pan to make decent baguettes. I'm not making this up: I baked bread nearly every day for months using nothing special.
With podcasts, I again resist the idea that to go beyond "superficial" you need anything except a phone. I've recorded audio on my iPhone lots of times. In a quiet room, it works fine. There are plenty of very serious podcasts with people who participate by phone, and that's just fine.
Again with running. Nope, you don't need that stuff. How did people run a hundred thousand years ago? It's a fundamental bodily function. I have a pair of Merrell Trail Gloves that I also use as walking shoes in the summer, and they're just fine for running, and no other equipment is necessary at all.
I program just fine with just a laptop.
Again—it's all just preference and availability. But you can't say that everyone needs this stuff, because they don't. And I resist the notion because I think it can prevent people from getting started with the stuff they actually have.
> It's just not true that you need a huge variety of stuff for over $1,000 to bake bread. Think about it. The history of bread goes back thirty thousand years.
"You don't need a guitar to make music, because people once made music by banging two sticks together". I mean, the GP even specifically mentioned pie tins, cake containers, cupcake trays, and you retort with "baking is nothing but bread"? "You don't need stuff, because a simplified subset of what you want to do can be done without stuff"? Hell, you don't even need a hammer to drive a nail, but it's a lot more efficient if you have one.
It's doubly weird that you invoke how people ran 100k years ago, and then say "all you need are shoes". Nope - it's "no footwear". It's perfectly doable - I had an anarchist friend who spent several years without wearing shoes (excluding when he had to - boots for protection when motorcycle riding). You should ditch the shoes in your example, for both running and walking, as shoes are just as unnecessary to human locomotion as $1k of kitchenware is to baking. There's even a subgenre of running that is specifically about no shoes; I'm not aware of a subgenre of baking that is specifically about making cakes with no mixer.
Sigh. I mentioned baking as a possible hobby that doesn't require a lot of stuff beyond what's typically available in a kitchen. "But cupcakes" doesn't invalidate that. Who needs cupcakes? Anyway, I'm out of this discussion. Sorry for this whole thread. Whatever.
I do go barefoot a lot when it's warm enough. Running, too. So, yeah, if the climate allows, you don't even need shoes. How nice!
Sure, no one truly needs anything, but having the right tools can make a huge difference between merely being able to do something, and doing that something well. I think we all can understand the nerd impulse to really want to get into something, learn as much about it as possible, and do it well. Having the right tools can easily be the difference between a given hobby being rewarding or frustrating, because you can't yield the results you want, or because you don't have the right tool to make a really tedious part of the process easier.
Some of the more esoteric hobbies I've gotten into have included amateur telescope making, ham radio, long-range precision reloading, and shed construction, all of which are very tool-dependent. The more and better tools you have, the more capable you are in the hobby, the better your results, and the more satisfying it is. Sure, some hobbies are more amenable to getting farther along in them with having less stuff, but that doesn't help you if you end up interested in something that is tool-dependent.
Agreed. All I'm saying is that there are plenty of hobbies that don't require many tools, and that even hobbies that require some stuff can be done fruitfully and fulfillingly with just the minimum. Some people enjoy that kind of minimalism, some people don't. Lots of people have to make do because they can't afford equipment, but they can still find fulfilment in life.
I'm in a position similar to Sivers, in that I don't have a permanent home, and I'm unlikely to find one in the near future. Like him I'm in a furnished apartment with barely any stuff of my own save for clothes, a laptop, a phone, a kindle, and a handful of other belongings. Some days I really yearn for a place of my own, and the things I could have in there...
But when I read someone saying they cannot wrap their head around how anyone could be fulfilled with living like Sivers... I feel obliged to respond. This is how my life is, and it's fine, I'm quite happy.
I play music with my friends in a rental rehearsal space, I meditate, I take photos with my phone, I code on my laptop, I discuss things, I read, all those things I listed. It's not some awful deprived life of poverty just because I don't have several bags of camera equipment!
Your original post says, 'baking' and 'running' with no context. People's ideas of seemingly simple tasks evolves as they get into it.
If you are just baking bread sure, you could do that with minimal equipment. But if you want to bake a cake, you need a cake tin, scales etc. If you wanted a really fancy cake...
If you want to run around the park, sure, pair of sneakers. I know ultra marathoners. When they enter a race they are given a checklist that they must have on race day. They have all sorts of gear to help them train. Not to mention the travel gear they need to get to the location their race is in.
You really don't need a cake tin to make a cake. A sauce pan can actually be really convenient due to the handle, the release thing is generally useful, but you can also use a liner.
I have watched a professional baker make several high end cakes and she used very few specialized tools. The icing/Pastry bag was really the only non standard cooking item.
Remember, people want to sell you stuff. That does not make stuff necessary.
Unless you buy a liner as part of the ingredient list and toss it when your done. Sure, it's less than optimal if your making a lot of cakes, but if you just make 1 or 2 per year for birthdays then it's really not a big deal.
Well, that's part of why I'm personally not interested in making fancy cakes or running ultra marathons. My comment was a reply to someone who could not imagine a fulfilling life without a bunch of equipment, and who said "I actually like doing things", as if that necessarily means acquiring special equipment... Apparently it's controversial that many fulfilling activities can be done with very little material help?
Jaimie[1] said something a while back when he was getting started on constructing his fiberglass boats by hand... "'Dude, why don't you have any tools? Why don't you just go get the right stuff?' To which I respond: 'I am the right stuff!'" I don't know how to break people from the delusion that you need so much stuff to do anything, other than perhaps watching other people do things with far less stuff...
My biggest hobby these days is gaming on my PC, it's incredibly cheap and stuff-minimal compared to other hobbies like skiing. I'm using a moderately powerful PC build from 2009 and updated my GPU a few years ago, still runs a lot of or even most new games on high settings. Occasionally I appreciate a good hike, and my brother got me a nice backpack and poles last year that I haven't used yet... because I've been hiking since I was a kid with no equipment but a bottle of water and maybe some bars (I do have hiking boots but I've gone hiking in my regular tennis shoes too) so I've forgotten it the last few times I've gone out. It's become just functionally another item in my stuff that I don't actually need, though when I do eventually remember it I'm sure it'll be convenient. Just like my external monitor for my work laptop is convenient, but not necessary. And so on.
Hey, thanks, that's fun to watch, the way he talks out loud about what he's thinking about trying and stuff. "I wonder what shape this piece of roofing metal would make if I just bent it like this... hmm, let's see..."
I'm inclined to want to do things with less stuff rather than more stuff. Sure, I wouldn't mind a villa full of studio equipment and musical instruments, but I also love to make music with just a ukulele and my voice—that's good practice, too. And you don't even need the uke. These guys are doing pretty well:
Maybe I'll sound pretentious but I like to make programs kind of the way that guy makes boats. Look at the fundamental tools available, see how to glue things together in the most efficient way. Use the aspiration to stay minimal as a source of inspiration and a way to get past analysis paralysis.
You don't need $1k to bake bread, but I think your parent is objecting to how much you are taking for granted. You didn't just use mixing bowls, you also used a sponge, dish soap, measuring cups, measuring spoons, a couple ingredients, bowls, fork/spoon/whisk, some kind of pan or tray... If we believe the author, he has none of those things.
The post says he's in a furnished home with an unspecified amount of kitchenware. That's what I'm taking for granted. You can easily make a loaf of bread with exactly these items: flour, water, salt, yeast, a bowl, your hands, an oven, a sheet pan. Amounts can be eyeballed, and you knead and add flour or water as needed. Yeah, dish soap is nice to have, but who is imagining that Mr. Sivers is trying to live without dish soap?
This is a group of predominantly young computer-people. They are not going to be wise to depreciation or the effects of old age.
If I buy a new video card, when I open the box its resale value instantly drops perhaps 50% of its price, and in perhaps two years its resale value is "you're gonna have to pay me to recycle that for you...". Money spent on computer hardware in 1981 dropped in value to $0 if not less by, perhaps, 1983. The experience is worthless, or negative worth, on your resume (trust me on that one) If you're a computer-person, money spent is money wasted, in the long run.
28 years ago I got a nice full set of fractional/number/letter drills in a Huot case. Instantly when I opened the package its value dropped from whatever it was sold for, to $10 at a garage sale. I get 28 years of use out of it, some are getting a little shorter from resharpening or have been replaced, and I could still get $10 at a garage sale. If I sold my drill bits to raise $10 today, I'd just have to rebuy them again in a month or two at full list price and eat the substantial depreciation a second time. Its not like my world is going to run out of things to make holes thru. I'm not wealthy enough to buy the same tools over and over; likewise I'm not wealthy enough to buy cheap tools that fall apart such that I have to buy them over and over. I'm not wealthy enough to rent things I use on a regular basis. Actually I am wealthy enough now, but character traits like this are exactly the cause of why I'm wealthy enough now. Minimization of total overall lifetime system cost. Nobody ever got rich by spending more money than is necessary.
Now multiply the set of drill bits by every other capital good / tool I own, and in some capital intensive hobbies it adds up. And there's really nothing wrong with that. That's how you end up with (old) carpenters having $30K shops like my accountant neighbor, or (old) bakers with $1K of gear, (old) ham radio operators with $10K radio stations... At least with some hobbies, not making dumb decisions adds up over time.
My wife is really into cooking and baking and she has some of those things and that is it. Almost nothing that isn't in every kitchen. I can't speak to running but I'm into biking, I know people with all kinds of gear, but I get by just fine with my dad's bike from the 60s and my day clothes. Sure I could go faster with different clothes and an expensive bike, but the part about biking I enjoy has nothing to do with how fast money can buy me, but the places I see, the routes I find, the exercise I get, etc. Some hobbies really do require more gear, but in every hobby you'll find a spectrum of a minimum amount of gear people feel they need or want.
Also you mention doing a hobby "well." There is a big difference between competitive bike racing and biking an hour every day for fun and exercise. Is someone who is into competitive bike racing doing their hobby "well"? More so than someone who doesn't have the gear and wouldn't win the race?
THats the thing. You don't 'need' all these things. Yes if you want to do some competitive baking you're gonna want all the specialized tools but to it's not a necessity.
Personally I try to think of my tools as investment, if I don't use it professionally I don't spend too much on it.
>but for most people in first-world countries: Running: Specialized shoes and gear (...) Penmanship: Specialized quills and ink
"Most people" in first world countries hardly ever run.
The official statistics I've seen put "joggers and runners" as 17-18% of the US population, and their definition includes all the "people who went jogging or running within the last 12 months in the United States" -- so in reality, much much less, especially after school/college age. This makes those irrelevant for the 80% and more. In most first world countries, which don't share the US obsession with jogging, that's substantially less.
As for "Penmanship, quills and ink", that's not even a thing for the overwhelming majority of the population. At least not since 1950.
And "making electronica"? I happen to do that, but I can count on one hand the number of people I know who even know what Roland or Ableton are (apart from collaborators etc).
So, I'd hardly call this list representative -- if it said "urban hipster" maybe, but the "for most people" qualifier is totally bogus.
To clarify, when I say "most people", I mean, "most people who are XXers" (where XX is runners, calligraphers, music-makers, etc.). Example: while "most people" don't do penmanship (and don't need the tools of trade, obviously), "most people" who do penmanship will have specialized "gear". That's my point: to have a hobby that's more than a passing interest, "most people" will acquire "stuff" that is critical to that hobby.
Though one could argue (given the clarification you've made) that said XXers could also embrace a minimalist aesthetic.
E.g. electronica makers: do everything in the box, or with very few pieces of kit (minimal gear). Penmanship: just use a couple of really good pens and some select stationary. Etc -- and of course they can keep the "minimal stuff" in all other non XX areas of their lives.
If you classify 'clothing' and 'shoes' as extra things then sure. Having clothes, some mugs, and a laptop allows him to do anything on that list except penmanship. (And swimming if you don't want to just swim naked)
Sure. But there's also a lot of stuff that does require having specialized things. (And a lot of your list actually does.) 0xffff2's point is that stuff is sometimes an enabler, not just a burden.
Personally, I don't have much stuff, and I like it that way. But taken to its extreme, and I wouldn't be able to do my favorite things.
The difference between those hobbies and the ones
0xffff2 mentioned is these are (most of, not all) hobbies where you consume, whereas his are hobbies where he creates.
Are the two so easy to distinguish? I'd say most of the things I listed aren't easily classifiable as either consuming or producing... and many of them are obviously productive.
A lot of that stuff can be compact if you don't get focused on 'stuff.' Let's assume you have clothing, computer, and
aka all hiking/ backpacking gear for a world tour can easily fit into a single backpack or fill a trailer.
Photography, 1 decent camera is really enough.
A single bike is actually fairly small. Start getting into road bikes, touring bikes, etc and they start taking up a lot of space.
DIY can take endless space, but you can get far with a single tool box. 'extra' is often more about saving time than really necessary.
PS: I good rule of thumb is if you have not used it in 2 years it's wasting space. But, IMO even better is if you have used it less than 3 times in a year it's fluff.
1 decent camera is enough if you are not a photographer, just a person who likes taking pictures.
As a very amateur photographer, I do in fact only own one camera. The rest of the two bags is accessories for that one camera and several lenses, each of which serve a unique and useful purpose. Good camera equipment is dammed expensive. If I could buy less of it and still do everything I want to do, you better believe I would! I don't even do very complicated photography. I shoot exclusively outdoors in relatively bright surroundings. There is a whole other realm of lighting equipment that I haven't even entered into yet.
And just for some perspective, it is not at all unusual for professional photographers to carry two cameras at the same time. (With different lenses, since it takes several seconds to swap a lens.)
And that doesn't get into specialty equipment like medium/full format.
My two small bags of equipment is nothing compared to the amount of gear that an experience professional photographer is likely to acquire over the course of a decade or two.
If only. I have several lenses for a variety of situations. A lighting rig for indoor shoots which includes bounces, tripods, umbrellas, cords and rigging. Then there's the tripod, plus a back pack for the smaller stuff. Not to mention backdrop equipment.
There's a big difference between casual hobby and serious hobby.
Your confusing flexibility with necessity. You can get really serious about say photographing bugs with a single camera. It's not going to be as widely useful, but trying to do everything is a great way to fail.
Consider, nobody says you need an electron microscope to get serious about photography, but they can take some amazing photos even without using photons...
You're confusing your idea of what a photographer does with "photography" as a subject. Photography is an incredibly diverse hobby and profession. Yes, it is possible to only buy one small subset of equipment that lets you photograph a single very specific things well, but I've never met a photographer with such narrow interests.
Even professional photographers that only do a specific kind of photography professional nearly always have amateur interests in other photographic subjects that require different gear.
Far from it, you can also have video games as a hobby and use a 5 year old laptop. A teen that can only afford one camera is not necessarily less into there hobby.
I have even known someone to go the other way and sell off there kit for a point and shoot. They where into candid photos so always having a camera was more important than fiddling with a massive beast.
Granted, camera's are cheap to most of the HN crowd, even blowing 30k over 20 years is just not a big deal. But, just because gear is 'cheap' and 'better' does not make it necessary.
From the equipment list provided, it sounds like portraiture is the goal--not photographing bugs. I don't see where it is implied that the poster is trying to boil the ocean with regard to their photographic pursuits.
A lot of these things could be borrowed for the occasion, or you could go to a co-working space that has the right tools. But granted, sometimes it is more convenient to own certain things.
It's not for everyone. But I doubt you can do all these hobbies in a single day or even week. Many can be rented or bought in smaller "travel" versions, however.
(Reminds me of an aside, in that every single sport has very specialized gear (on purpose) now. You can't be caught dead wearing basketball shorts when cycling, even though they are just fine, outside the tour de france.)
But still, if you've got a big house there's no immediate need. It's when you have to move that you'll wish for less.
They deliver & pick up activity-specific gear. As others have said, not sure if there is enough of a market for it, but access code "nextdoor" if you want to give it a try
> It makes me really happy when another Christmas or birthday has passed and I didn’t receive anything. It makes me feel understood.
My sister and I have this arrangement. I tell her every Christmas that her gift (nothing) is the best one, because I don't have to figure out where to store more junk until enough time has passed that I don't feel guilty throwing it away. She's even more of a clean freak than I am — I believe she actually gets a thrill out of throwing stuff away.
If I want some object, I will buy that object myself. I don't want someone's semi-educated guess (that's most likely wrong) cluttering up my apartment. What I find particularly strange is that people consistently give me things that I explicitly tell them I don't want — they buy me stuff that they want for Christmas or that they think I "need".
The only gifts I like are the ones that have strong sentimental value — something that shows a lot of thought went into it — perhaps a handmade photo book or a good meal. For me, an object will never be as valuable as quality time spent with family.
My family adopted the "no gifts" Christmas rule several years ago. Apparently, my siblings were stressing out financially each year buying gifts, but I found it did wonders for reducing my own holiday stress. Now we just get together, eat, talk, play games, and play with the kids. It's amazing in retrospect to see how small a part of the family get-together was gift-giving. We would exchange gifts, stack our new toys into piles, and forget about them until it was time to load up the cars to go home.
Gift-giving can become such a social minefield too. We had a birthday party for my oldest son and specifically requested no gifts (he has enough toys). One attendant missed it or ignored it and brought one anyway. We politely thanked them for the gift, and were immediately confronted by several other parents who became quite defensive and a little angry with us (seemingly embarrassed that they had not brought gifts). Some of them even came back after the party with gifts to somehow make amends in their minds. There's a lot of social stuff I don't understand surrounding gift-giving.
I don't know if this is popular in the USA. We also have a "no gifts" rule. Instead we do a secret santa. We do a real gift and an optional gag gift. It works wonderfully.
Except this year somebody sent lots of gifts for two of my nephews. It was ridiculous and very uncomfortable for the rest of the family to watch.
Between my wife and I, the policy has been to go out and spend time together instead of buying gifts. I don't try to push this onto others but it does work with most of my close friends as well.
It also works great with kids once they reach a certain age. Two years ago we asked the grandparents to give experiences instead of toys. Archery lessons, horse camp and climbing lessons have been the biggest hits so far.
The other thing to remember is that it's about the feeling of giving as well as the person receiving, and the grandparents have said they feel like what they're doing is being appreciated more than just another toy or gadget.
It works inside family or with girlfriends, but only as long as everybody agrees to go somewhere. As with normal gifts, presenting tickets as a surprise is not a good idea.
By "go out" I didn't mean something that requires tickets. It could be dinner, or a short getaway. In very few cases I've given gift cards to amazon or a local mall. It's a little more personal than cash but I still get to leave things open-ended.
> If I want some object, I will buy that object myself.
I can so relate. "What can I get you for birthday?" - "Nothing, mum. I got all I need." - "How about we go buy some new shoes for you?" - "sigh I already have a pair of shoes." :)
About twenty years ago I had to move, and not many friends showed up to help. It was an incredible burden, and that day I said "enough" with the material possessions. Went to the dump, and now its just me, a backpack, and a small storage closet.
I own very few things and live with a roommate in a furnished apartment. I am minimal to a fault EXCEPT when it comes to books. I have dozens and dozens of them. I can't seem to be able to let them go.
Another option is to tell people specifically what you want ahead of time, or buy your own gifts in advance and give them to family members for them to give you during holidays
I like getting birthday presents that are doing something. Usually my wife takes me on a vacation, or to see a show I really like, etc. It's much better than some object IMO.
This is what we do too, but to be fair its only because at our wealth level we can pretty much buy everything we want, within reason. Its different for poorer people. Getting a 42" TV when you can't afford one yourself is a wonderful feeling. I hate this idea that now that everything is mass produced and relatively "cheap" we suddenly see ourselves as above it all because we make decent money. Err, not really.
The only real reason I decry gift giving on my birthday is because I have so much shit I'm temporarily satisfied, not because I'm above having shit. If I couldn't afford some of those things and someone got one of them for me I'd be overjoyed.
Its also weird to hear that people think its minimalist to own a smartphone and laptop. Those devices do so many things, they're the equivalent of hundreds of gadgets. Or how "I don't own a TV" is the clarion call of the intellectual hipster but he spends his days shitposting on the internet, binging netflix, subscribing to hundreds of youtube channels, etc.
I find it bizarre that quite a few people seem to think that gifts must be things. What's wrong with buying someone an experience for their birthday? A dinner out, a massage voucher, a skydiving session... my friend has given me an Escape Room challenge for my just-passed birthday.
A wonderful quip I picked up from a teacher couple might help on invites: "Presence Not Presents". The absence of "no" makes it easier to accept socially, I suspect.
Well, I would prefer that they use that money to help address third world problems. In lieu of gifts on Valentine's day, my girlfriend and I each donated money to Watsi.
I don't live quite like this, but I feel similarly about gifts: I far prefer them to be practical rather than decorative or frivolous.
I've realised that people can get slightly upset when I explain it to them. They want to buy me something fun, something I'll "enjoy". Chances are I won't, although I do of course appreciate the sentiment.
Equally, I find it more satisfying to buy a "useful" gift for others. And of course people don't always appreciate this, and some prefer a trinket instead of a practical item.
There's emotional context imbued in the act of giving, and some people embed that in the object itself.
So I'm learning to allow people to express their feelings toward me by letting them buy me whatever they want, although I will still hint at my preference if given a choice.
This can lead to clutter, which I hate, but I've realised some people love. I don't know the solution to this yet, but I suspect it's a combination of out-of-site storage and in-view display cabinet type arrangements. I have disposed of truly unwanted gifts, but I realise that's potentially hurtful so I don't enjoy doing it.
Can get creative with different denominations and presentations. For example, my in laws will give a jar of Nutella as a Christmas gift, with some bills taped to the bottom. Always a little bit of surprise as to where the cash will be. Kids especially love this!
One Christmas, had the grand kids sing a silly song in order to get a dollar or two.
Lots of ways to turn giving cash from an impersonal gift, into something fun and creative!
I've come to prefer giving (often cheap) gifts that are intended to be disposed of, but lead to a bit of fun.
Quick example: I got my family (parents, sister, cousins, etc; no kids right now) a bunch of santa hats from the doller store for christmas that were each a little different and one was technically a chair cover (but looked like an incredibly oversized hat). Then I let them duke it out over who got which hat. Also shutter shades.
They still talk about that Christmas. Experiences are something worthwhile.
Refrigerator door culture. At some point in life you will no longer be permitted not to have magnets on your fridge. I made it until I got married.
Weaponized clothes are a thing too. Everyone knows nobody likes getting someone elses choice of clothes as a gift, especially not kids, but it is a socially acceptable weapon to kinda "get" the recipient. More a slap to the face than a punch to the face, but none the less kinda an aggressive act.
My father hated fridge magnets and resisted for years. Then he remarried, and it started happening, slowly. One year, he bought a very nice refrigerator for xmas. It's completely non-magnetic. I couldn't help but ask, and yes.. it was intentional.
Hah, same here. We made it until friends started having children. I think there's still a refrigerator door somewhere underneath all the cute pictures.
I don't know, I've gotten lots of clothes I liked. I don't much enjoy going clothes shopping, so I appreciate other people putting in the effort as long as their impression of the things I'd wear is reasonably accurate.
While I like the ideea of this lifestyle, I can't do it. I simply love my tools too much. And I have a lot of them. And lopts of parts. At a first look, some might looks superfulous, for example, I have this wierd star-shaped screwdriver. Most of the time, I don't use it, but boy, when I use it, does it save me a lot of time.
I want to live like this too, but I need tools. I need automotive tools. I can't afford mechanics bills, nor trust the workmanship. I need tools to repair watches--which turned into a side business. Plus I have home contractor tools. It's the tools that has me waited down.
I have a library I can thin down, but it's hard. It's 99 percent refrence. And the first editions--well I like them more than some people. I wouldn't have ever started the library, but didn't think books would be so digitally available.
I have a couple of vaccumes I could get rid of, but who would cut my hair? Flobee--and they do work, if you have a little bit of coordination. I hated going to the hair salon.
That said--if I had to go leave real quick, I would take all my watches, and jeweler's tools. I could fit everything in three legal sized boxes. I would take another three legal sized boxes of books. I would leave my tool chest, and put all tools in six legal sized boxes.
I might need to move quick in the future. I'm not sure where I will go. I won't pay Bay Area rents again. I go out at night, and the people I would interact with moved away. The Bay Area is just not that fun anymore. Never thought I would say that, but then again couldn't imagine living in the Midwest.
I am greatful I never had a kid. Never thought I would say that. I like them, but I never thought life in America would be this ruthless.
I gave away my inheritance, from a pretty brutal father. At the time, I didn't think I would ever need it, nor wanted anything from the man. I gave it all to a family member. I should have kept some of it. It was a lot too.
On the positive side, when I'm dying, I won't need to make to many amends. I haven't screwed over anyone--I can recall. My exes don't want to keep in touch. One told me, "You can be really hurtful. You have hurt my feelings more than any other person." She's now seeing women. I knew I was kinda a handful, but I didn't intentionally want to hurt her feelings. I just couldn't continually agree.
I thought I was reading an excerpt from some cult book of some kind. I think it's the honesty that resonates for me. Thanks for sharing, marincounty, and keep it coming.
Edit - just realised mc has been behind many of the most interesting comments I've read over the last few months. Might not agree with it all, but enjoy reading them!
Nothing wrong with that, I'm fairly minimal in the stuff I own but I have a tonne of cycling stuff (all of which is used, UK climate means you have to change up gear a lot) and tools since it's just not practical to buy those when I need them.
I assume you've tried to explain that you enjoy practical things? How 20 years from now you will pull out the old battered screwdriver they gave you (assuming it was a good screwdriver), put together some furniture, and think of them?
One of the best gifts I ever got was a Craftsman hand tool set from my father.
(Caveat, of course, is I was a raging petrol-head and kept swiping his tools, so he knew I would use it)
Does anyone use Amazon wish lists to solve this sort of issue? Do they even exist? Asking both out of interest of this thread's topic, and because some time back I consulted to a dot com startup where the product was to be a gift related site. Startup was executed very poorly so I left (and it shut down soon after). But the idea may have had merit.
My family all has Amazon wish lists for exactly this issue, in fact. Before Amazon was popular, we all posted wish lists on a closet door in my grandmother's house, and we either went in the den to look at them or called her and asked her what was on the lists.
My girlfriend's family doesn't do any of this stuff, and so I've had to do "educated guess"-type gifting, which I'm usually somewhat decent at. They tend to get me clothes, which is fine, everyone's gotta wear clothes.
I do. I've trained nearly everyone in my life to accept that I'm happy receiving nothing for my birthday and Christmas, but my dad refuses to get on board. I always have a list of stuff saved in my Amazon cart that I want eventually, but not enough to buy it right now. So every time a holiday rolls around and he wants to buy me something, I just chuck all of that stuff into a wish list and send it to him.
I fight against this all the time. It's simply impossible due to all the guilt involved.
I do not want anything for xmas/birthday. My wife always wants to get me something and makes me feel like a killjoy. This is perhaps manageable.
Bigger problem is I have 2 kids who get invited to parties. I have to take the birthday boy/girl something. Fine - but this means it's reciprocated.
Valentines day recently. Used to be for asking a new girl out - now you have to gift something to your wife of 20 years. I have successfully vanquished this one.
Coming over for dinner? They bring a (bad) bottle of wine that I now have to get rid of. On and on the waste goes.
I understand most of your post and your desire to have less stuff. However, when you can't bring wine (a consumable, literally no long term space-occupation or anything else, probably gone that night, if not you can just dump it down the drain) to dinner... sheesh.
Let me flesh that out. It's the waste I don't like. I don't dislike the person for the sentiment. I don't enforce this nor do I criticize it should a guest bring some.
I basically just want someone to come to my place and enjoy themselves, they shouldn't have to bring me a gift: I invited them. If they do anyway I thank them but I wish they had not.
This is putting the cart before the horse. If I dump 4,000 kilos of butter outside your front door will you make enough sandwiches or should I not have done that?
I used to drink bad wine, then I realised I'm putting myself through displeasure for no real end.
> Coming over for dinner? They bring a (bad) bottle of wine that I now have to get rid of.
I'm not a drinker myself, but I always assumed that people brought wine to dinners with the intention of drinking them at that dinner. Shouldn't that take care of getting rid of it?
Expensive wine is not always good, cheap wine is not always bad. One of my favourite wines is a ten bucks a bottle; it's more expensive for me now because I need to order it by the case and ship it across the country to get it, but so it goes.
If somebody brings a bottle of wine to dinner, unless you specifically planned the meal to go with a specific bottle of wine (or if they specifically say that this bottle is meant to be opened at a certain time or for a certain occasion), open the bottle they brought. Otherwise, you're sending one of two messages:
1) I'm certain that this wine you brought as a gift is so bad, I don't even want to bother drinking it.
2) I'm certain that this wine you brought as a gift is so good, I don't want to share it with you at all.
Neither message is a good look. If it's bad wine, open it, share the bad experience, and joke about how horrible the wine is. You've all learned something. If it's good wine, open it, share the good experience, and marvel over how great the bottle is.
Damiani Dolce Bianco, a blended table white. It's an eminently drinkable white wine, pairs well with chicken, pasta, or dishes with a citrus element. Alternatively, it's light enough that you can simply drink it on its own over the course of an evening. Drink it chilled, and I highly recommend sharing with friends.
You'll have a lot of trouble finding it for sale unless you happen to live in the upstate NY area; they're a small winery in the Finger Lakes region. I visited them once when I was living in that area, and discovered later that their table white could be bought at my local Century Wine and Liquor for ten bucks. At the time, I was living with some friends and none of us were making very much money (we were all immediately post-college), and that bottle of wine was the backdrop to basically all of our social gatherings and group dinners. A couple years later, when I moved out to California, I sent the winery an email letting them know how much I had enjoyed drinking their wine with my friends, and how sad I was that I was no longer in an area where they had distribution. In response, they offered to sell me a case for ten percent off, and covered shipping as a wedding present for my upcoming wedding.
It's worth noting here that while I'm presenting this story as an example of how nice the winemakers are, it should be stressed that they are not unusual in this regard! If you live in an area that has vineyards and wineries, you should go visit and do tastings! You can probably find cheap wines that you like, you can build relationships with the people who make the wines, and you will enjoy the wine even more for it. It's boatloads of fun to bring a bottle of wine to dinner with friends and say "Now, I know the folks who make this, they're especially proud of this bottle. Let me know what you think!"
It can go either way. The host may or may not open--it's meant as a gift. For people who are really in to wine, they will have already chosen bottles that are paired with the food.
Exactly, I guess this guy doesn't get out much. It's not expected that you open it there and then. In fact on gifting wine I usually insist they save it and enjoy it later (assuming I've bought a good one). It's not for me.
I haven't celebrated christmas with gifts since about the age of 12 or so. My family forces a gift or two on me each year.. and each year I return it for cash and leave the money at their house. Sometimes they notice, other times they don't. In the end, we both win.
I stopped accepting / asking for gifts after I overheard them stressing about a credit card bill. It didn't make sense that they should stress so I could have something I didn't want or need.
I have a small soap company on the side. I started bringing soap as a hostess gift instead of wine. It felt weird at first, but I find that most people are grateful to have a useful gift over some two-bit beach wine.
Those thoughts sometimes lead me to conclusion that "gift" tradition is invented or supported by marketing. It sounds like conspiracy theory, but it is partially true: take for example valentines day that is exploited by advertisement industry each year. I wonder if that gift tradition would be nearly dead were it not for aggressive advertising.
Doesn't require conspiracy. It's in the best interests of retailers to peddle gift-giving, so they do. This peddling increases gift-giving, or the retailers would stop doing it. Therefore it's safe to assume that gift-giving rates would be lower if the retailers did not peddle it.
With regards to the birthday gifts, we have friends that have their children choose a charity to support via donations.
An example would be the local humane society, and each birthday party attendee is asked to bring something that could be donated, such as leashes, bowls, or food. Then the birthday boy/girl gets to take all of the donations to the humane society.
It's a win/win. No additional clutter, and birthday boy/girl gets life experience with donation and community involvement.
These chain of thought leads to one of the most common startup ideas ever to cross VC desks - the ability to gift experiences online. (Interestingly, a Google search that I just ran for 'gift experiences' returned almost exclusively UK results. What would a US resident be searching for?)
Every time I have a birthday I am terribly worried about receiving some gift that I won't like from people who don't know me good enough but want to give me some present. Receiving a gift that I don't like and having to avoid showing that I don't really like it is worse than receiving nothing. In fact I have enough money to buy anything I want myself, so there is really nothing I would like to receive as a gift.
I feel much the same as you, but I recently started receiving gifts from a newly important person in my life. Some of the gifts were not things I would get for myself and weren't even on my radar. But upon receiving them and taking the time to consider the gift and try it, I have learned that gift giving can include the possibility of expanding my tastes by exposing me to things I would otherwise pass over.
Reading through the linked blog entry, at first I got the impression that he just likes a minimal life. But then I started to get the impression he just doesn't want to make the effort to maintain relationships with other humans.
Are there any things you like that are temporary and experiential? For instance, I really like things like coffee, wine, movies, weekend ski trips, nice restaurants, etc. All of these things can be given as gifts, and better yet some of them can be enjoyed with the gift-giver (and spending quality time together is the best gift, really), but don't take up any space. I've had some success over time making it known that I really prefer these sorts of gifts.
Or just nice pairs of wool socks – I wear out about 5 pairs a year, which is about the right number to receive as gifts. But people might not believe you that you love getting socks :)
So my in-laws violate my "I don't want anything" desire.
EVERY Christmas they but me a new pajama set (or two). Thing is I sleep in my boxers so I have a drawer full of rarely/barely worn pajamas. (I just realized... I'm going to be donating them now and from now on unused to the Salvation Army).
Don't get me wrong, I think socks are a great gift... they wear out and fresh soft fuzzy socks rock!
My mother in-law sends me socks once or twice a year and it's the best gift as otherwise I'll wear socks until they aren't even one piece anymore. Socks and good beer are the only gifts I normally enjoy receiving.
Anything else I'll buy for myself. I'm perfectly happy to not receive gifts.
Giving and receiving the consumable gifts is the best I think, and I'd rather give/receive cash than gift cards as the extreme version of that. I generally wouldn't consider clothing a consumable item though -- I wear socks until they have holes in them, so it surprises me that you wear out 5 pairs a year. I was successful in a "no clothes" policy for several years, but apparently I need to renew it since over the last few for my birthday and Christmas I've gotten several wool socks from more than one party that I really don't like... They don't fit my feet well (they're "appropriately sized", but don't fit well for the same reasons Nike shoes of my size don't fit well), I wear them as a last resort if I somehow run out of my clean regular white cottons that last forever. The wool ones are the first to go in the donation heap...
I suspect we live in different places. I live in Colorado, where it makes sense to wear wool socks a lot of the time, and I wear them out from walking and hiking a lot. Obviously it's a personal thing and I mostly included it as a joke :)
So my point was that unless you know everything about life and the universe you might not know what your preferences are (and preferences change) ;)
And not all gifts are material.
But sure, there's nothing wrong in not wanting anything from someone else if that is your thing.
I get the impression going through this gift that people don't actually know how to give gifts. I LOVE giving gifts. No, I don't go through someone's Amazon wish-list or buy them something they could buy themselves. I usually make people things, and it usually takes 2-6 months of work. I might spend a month on an embroidered pocket square, or a handmade notebook, or a handmade piece of jewelry or carving, or an elaborate 6-course meal and paired wines.
If I can't dedicate at LEAST few weeks to constructing the perfect gift/experience for someone, I won't give anything at all. Better nothing than a bad gift...
Of course it is possible than someone would give me something really nice, it happens with some of my closest friends and relatives. But in the case of strangers or people I know for 1 or 2 years only the chance of a bad surprise and its consequences, such as having to pretend I like gift and worrying about questions about it some time later, outweigh. The risk is just too high.
everytime I see a book I'd like to have, I just add it to my amazon wishlist and when my bday comes around and I haven't gotten it yet myself, people will get me that. This is really, really easy.
They study or work with me. Some places even have lists of birthdays and all sorts of "teambuilding". Each place has its own traditions, so making your birthday an exception to default policy may require some effort.
We also have Facebook and similar social networks now, though I don't use them. All kinds of social networks reminded people about birthdays ever since the era of PHP forums.
I'm somewhat similar to this except furnished flats are rare where I live so I have some furniture.
That said my bedroom has a bed and a side table, my living room a sofa, computer desk and TV.
Spare bedroom has my road bike and my cycling gear (as a hobby it's unavoidable).
I have a (somewhat) strict 1 closet policy for clothing, once I fill it for each item in something has to go (easy this year as I dropped nearly 70lbs, virtually nothing I had fits).
I could pack and move my entire possessions in a day and with the exception of my computer gear/bike stuff replace everything for under a 1000 quid.
I can't even claim any asceticism or anything for this, I just don't buy stuff I don't need and get rid of stuff I don't use because if I don't use it why have to clean around it.
Dropped the first 60 in 4 months, that didn't feel great, 1500 calories a day for 4 months got old really fast but yeah physically I feel better than I have in a long time.
Also according to NHS guidelines as of a few weeks ago I'm no longer even overweight I'm in the healthy range (not that I entirely trust their crude BMI stuff) which is a nice place to be.
Nice. Did you just do it with strict calorie watching or some other diet? My friend lost his 100lbs in about 5-6 months on Keto, I've used it to lose 50lbs quickly myself, I think it makes the lower calorie count hard to notice... In his case he avoided the clothing problem by wearing all his old clothes he's had in storage boxes for years since they no longer fit.
Straight calorie counting, had a fancy spreadsheet I logged everything I ate with calorie counts, it predicted weekly and monthly weight loss plus expected goal weight date etc (I was out by a week, I hit target early as was averaging 1430 a day not 1500).
The prediction based on 3500 calories equally 1lb of weight loss was remarkably accurate for me.
I also took supplements since 1500 a day is considered very borderline for a man and I'm quite big naturally.
Supplemented with cod liver oil, multivitamin, vitamin D and calcium and used dissolvable fibre drinks (one side effect of not eating a lot is unfortunate).
Breakfast was porridge (plain oats, no salt, sugar or honey), lunch was no fat cottage cheese with salad, tea was either pork, chicken or fish with steamed veggies.
Occasionally I'd eat McDonalds if the the junk craving was too strong (because it has accurate calorie counts).
Drank a lot of water as well, probably 5-6 pints a day plus coffee and diet energy drinks for pick me ups.
It was actually pretty easy once I got past the first week.
The hard part since has been eating clean and still getting 2500 calories, it's amazing when you cut out sugar and really high fat stuff how much you have to eat to get 2500 calories, its the equiv of 2.5kg of regular cottage cheese!.
Blood pressure went down, insulin response is normal and I feel better generally than I have done in ten years despite my ongoing medical problems, you truly are what you eat.
I feel so close to this guy; I can relate to him so much.
I don't think I've lived in a house for longer than two years in my entire life. I've lived in different cities, provinces, and even countries. I naturally keep the amount of "stuff" that I own down to an amount that can be packed up into one car/truck load. I love the sense of freedom that comes with being able to pick up and go somewhere else in a day.
I also share the thoughts on gifts. Christmas time a Birthdays I always tell people to not get me anything and I their gift to me is a good dinner and time spent with each-other. If they have to get me something then it's the essentials like clothing or consumables. I like having a small set of core, quality items such as my clothing, cameras, and laptop/phone. Everything else is temporary.
Come family time this will change, but for now I'm happy living simply.
We agreed one year of no Christmas Gifts. I brought a $100 bill. Gave it to my brother who passed it on to my sister who gave it to me, I gave it back to her, she gave it to my brother and he gave it back to me.
Next work day "Hey for Christmas both my brother and sister gave me $100 each!" So it works out ;-)
I'm like 0xffff2 I have a ton of things that makes house stuff go better like a ladder, hand tools I like electronics, bench full of parts and different tools. My partner is a quilter, so tons of fabric fills that space. There are two shelves with 4 totes of holiday decorations. And so it goes.
I have divested of lots of stuff, like paper books now reside as digital ones on a file server, a book case of movies and music are now stored on a few TB drives. We are pretty much devoid of small decorations that need to be dusted.
But unlike the University me that could move to my first few places with all I owned in my VW bus, the last move took most of a Mayflower truck.
Not sure how all of the things I like to do are going to fit into the Old Folks Home in a few years.
I do want stuff but ... about 30 months ago I got rid of everything and started traveling. I've been living out of a large suitcase and backpack for that entire time, staying at hotels or renting AirBnBs a month at a time.
Because I'm living out of my suitcase I can't buy anything without throwing something away. I have 2 pairs of shoes, dress and non-dress. When I've gone to some place tropical I've had to buy sandals and then throw them away when I get on the next plane because there's no room in my suitcase.
It also means I can't really go shopping. Some of you might think that's a good thing but many people enjoy shopping while traveling. I'm in a cold place now. A couple of days ago I spilt something on my one heavy jacket. While it's in the cleaners I had to buy another which I'll have to discard one way or another before I get on the next plane.
For me personally yea, I miss having a TV to chill at. I miss video games and PC games (carrying a mac which few games run on and can't have a console). Wish I had a desktop PC for higher end graphics. Wish I could play with VR but can't carry that equipment. (well except for a Google Cardboard)
I'm ready to go back to living somewhere though being un-rooted I'm finding it extremely hard to decide where I should plant roots again.
So much this! I am in the exact position and facing the same issue. For me going back full time to my homeland and buying a ps4 seems like a good idea, but I have to keep reminding myself that these comfortable things ultimately just drag you down and end up owning you. I too will plant roots 'somewhere' someday, and that to will be an adventure. Good luck in finding your home!
Not wanting "stuff" is a gamble that your present and future is secure and safe.
Having been homeless at one point, I've become a bit of a hoarder, because you never know when things will go south and you are one month away from being homeless (again).
Also we'll see how often you keep erasing things and starting from scratch as you get older and find that remembering things is a lot harder and takes a lot longer to rebuild.
That's an interesting perspective, as Derek's future is quite secure. He had a large personal exit from his business CD Baby, and put all the money into a charitable trust[1] that will be given away when he dies, but in the meantime pays him a (very) good annual income out of the interest for the rest of his life.
I agree with both of you - this minimalistic getting rid of all your stuff is an affluent-person thing. That doesn't make it wrong, but it is an important piece of the background, I think.
This is part of why I wrote in my other comment that we should not conflate this minimalism stuff with some sort of higher virtue. It's just affluent people prioritizing a certain type of convenience over other types of convenience, because they can afford to.
I take the opposite conclusion. If god forbid things do go south and you become homeless, it's much worse having to figure out what to do with a lot of stuff, than if you have minimal stuff to begin with. There was recently a story in the Austin subreddit about a guy who was evicted, and all of his furniture and other stuff was put out on the apartment complex lawn, to be quickly picked up and carted off by his neighbors...
> Having been homeless at one point, I've become a bit of a hoarder, because you never know when things will go south and you are one month away from being homeless (again).
It goes both ways, though, doesn't it? Now you need to find a larger apartment to keep around your dining table, toilet paper collection, books. Was that worth keeping them around? Some things yes, other things no.
Eh, it varies by location, but everywhere I've been, the cost of rent was dramatically higher than any sort of minimum stuff I might need... in fact, the primary reason for me to cut down on 'stuff' is to get rid of the expense of storing it.
I mean, personally, I like having 'stuff' - especially the sort of stuff I need at a moment's notice that I can't get amazon to overnight me, but if you live in a major metro, it's more of an expense than it is a cushion.
Of course, if I owned a big house with a garage, the equation would be somewhat different, but in areas where I want to live, that is somewhat unrealistic.
More float time before becoming homeless. You already have the toiletries and food staples for the next 3 months, so you can focus money towards that rent payment and job interviews. Not sure what "stuff" the parent was referring too though..
People have good criticisms about e-readers like the Kindle. It's not great for technical books. It can be a little laggy and not as sensory compared to paper books.
That said, the ability to retake space is soooooo worth it. My Kindle has dozens of books, magazines, and long form articles. Over the long term, I have saved volumes of physical space and pounds of weight.
While I miss the physical look of having rows of beautiful books decorate a place, I don't mind having more open space for my psyche and other activities (music).
I give away physical books I liked to friends, and those that I didn't like to Books for Amnesty. While you can email someone the .epub, it's not quite the same. A scribbled dedication will persist longer and be more evocative that an email too.
Technical books I tend to keep as ebooks on my desktop where I work anyway.
While I have friends who read, they admit they don't read as much as they used to. So giving books or even games to them often results in an expensive dust collector.
And while I admire the act of giving books away, either to BoA or one's local library, I like to go back to my book every once in a while to recall a specific section that resonated. E-readers allows me to save highlights in the cloud, where I can go back to find particular interesting tidbits and find the fuller section if need be. This is helpful complicated concepts that often require multiple reads over time to sink in.
Yes! Well-put! Thanks for bringing this up. I'm Kindle-only these days, and people ask if I miss books. I might, in theory, but you're right besides the convenience, it's the advantage of NOT having all that paper that is so worth it.
I can very much relate to this; my motto is "you don't own stuff; the stuff owns you". And every time I've moved, I was amazed at just how much stuff one (even unwillingly) accumulates, and how liberating it feels to get rid of it.
I also prefer to own just a few high quality and/or useful things over having a 'ton of crap'.
I've recently started building an actual database of my physical inventory, and have already found multiple items which I needlessly own twice because when I bought the second one, I didn't realize I had one already.
It's much easier than that. Just a text file that I keep in a git repo (so I can sync it between systems).
First, I assign string IDs to storage locations following a simple hierarchical pattern. For example, `H` might be the hallway. `Hc` might be the cupboard on the hallway. `Hc3` might be the third drawer in that cupboard, and so on.
Now if I put my old external harddrive into that drawer, I write into the inventory text file: "Hc3 external harddrive". It's the storage location, followed by the asset name. If the thing might have many names, I just chain all of them together.
Now all the queries come down to simple grepping, for example:
- "grep '^H' inventory" gives me all the items I have stored in the hallway.
- "grep Windows inventory" shows me where I put that old Windows 7 DVD.
My system also includes optional "intents" to be appended to the storage location. There's "#s" (sale), "#o" (offer = give away for free), "#g" (garbage), and "#e" (evict = move to a less accessible storage location if space is needed).
So I can just show the output of "grep '#o' inventory" to my friends, and they can see at a glance what stuff I have to give away.
One time I took square photos of all my things and put them in CouchDB with just a label. It was pretty fun to see an alphabetical list of photos of nearly everything I owned. Like an RPG inventory.
This is an amazing idea. First thing that comes to mind is a process to automate labeling like with google images. Is there anything open source that fits this?
That seems like it would take longer than just manually labeling the things to begin with, especially with edge cases (what happens when there are 2 items in the picture? how do you handle mislabeling?).
That would be pretty neat, but I just spent like fifteen minutes going through the photos and typing a word for each one... toothbrush, Zippo, shoes, plectrum, document... kind of fun, actually!
This newsitem reminds me of times whan HN had that news about people traveling with just a backpack, 100-thing challenge and other minimalism-related news. I discovered http://zenhabits.net/ and /r/minimalism. The idea of selecting 1 or 2 Most Important Tasks for the next day really worked for me, for example.
Anyone care to share some good minimalism-related resources?
I grew up in a house with lots of stuff and share Derek's aversion to clutter. My solution is to aim for quality over quantity.
I think there's still a case for keeping a good set of tools around. For us software engineers, most tools are virtual with the exception of our computers and / or writing utensils. I don't view it as any different from someone mechanically inclined keeping their physical tools around. Same deal with hiking or camping gear.
I still find it hard to dispose of books. Not so much because I want to keep the physical book but because the book is a physical manifestation of an idea I respect and want to keep a physical record of it in my life. (I even own both physical and electronic versions of some of my favorites to re-read when traveling.)
Books especially -- there's something to be said for the user-interface both of an individual paper book, and of a whole bookshelf, in terms of ease of navigation. PDFs allow you to grep but spatial memory is much better suited to physical things. And I'm much more likely to pick up a paperback from my bookshelf when I'm looking for something to read than I am to go find a PDF and sit in front of my laptop/tablet.
And finally I really like the social aspect of physical books. "Hey, we were just talking about X, and you might like this book!" works way better with paper than with a PDF.
My number one wish/want/desire for my birthday (which happens to be today!) is no gifts. I prefer no one make a big deal either.
One year my parents didn't send me a card or anything. It was soooo sweet! They finally listened and respected my desire(s). Then I found out they actually forgot. Which was bittersweet because that's sad to many but awesome because they made my birthday a non issue.
Anyways, for my birthday... I want to celebrate my parents for giving me the greatest gift of all, life. I'm ordering flowers for them right now.
Edit: changed "a catch 22" to "bittersweet" and "mother" to "parents".
I very much appreciate the sentiment, particularly in todays marketing-saturated environment. However, I can say from personal experience that having a few nice or meaningful things can lead to some happiness, given the appropriate relationship with them.
This book has quite a bit of silliness in it (I found it charming, you may not) but it has been very good for my mental health:
this is why when i give gifts, i give something edible, or consumable, like nice chocolate, wine, coffee, etc, usually something gourmet or something that the person wouldn't normally buy.
Getting rid of stuff feels great, but I think we have a cultural thing where we equate it with some sort of higher virtue. That's a mistake, but sure, get rid of all your stuff. Like I said, feels great.
I don't really enjoy getting presents all that much because I've attained a certain comfort in life. But, it doesn't seem to me that I had to consider much or stress a lot about where I could donate gifts or items I don't want. There's Baras Foundation, Goodwill, AmVets, shelters, schools, so so many people happily ready to receive anything you give them.
Ok, you don't want stuff, but spare me the stress you feel around your family/others not understanding you. Use your energy in a more friendly and giving way and maybe you'll find that it's a bonus to receive the chance to get out in your community, meet and share and give to those that could use a leg up.
I bet once you cycle back and tell your family and friends about the people and places and experiences you now have after donating things, they'll understand. Some will have a hard time with it, but I doubt for long.
I get a bonus item every 5 yrs at my company. Couple years ago received a 60" TV, took me all of a minute and one email to a local school in need and they drove over and picked it up.
I don't like having obligations thrust upon me without my consent. A gift is an obligation: I need to find a use for it, or at least find somewhere out of the way to keep it until I can get rid of it.
The way I read your comment, you're trying to replace one obligation with another (find somewhere to give it away). You're telling me that this absolves the first obligation ("they'll understand"), and that I'll enjoy the second one ("it's a bonus to..."). I'm skeptical of both of those things: you don't know me and you don't know my family and friends. But even if you're right, I don't want the second obligation.
If I want to get out in the community, I can do that without waiting for someone to give me a gift I don't want.
(As it happens, in my case, I often like the gift more than I dislike the obligation. Maintaining an amazon wishlist is helpful for this. But not everyone is the same, and "spare me" is an unkind reaction to them.)
- donate
- after talking to a friend you realize you have something you don't want you can give them
- talk to a neighbor and realize you can clear out space in a garage or house or shed by giving them something
- just throw something in an alley and someone comes by within the hour and happily loads it up in a truck for use or selling elsewhere
Sorry if you can't see the positive in the effort expended.
Yes, I should not assume much about you. I am optimistic that people don't feel WORSE during the act of giving.
That's not the point. If I want to do good, I can choose to do good. I don't want someone else choosing how I do good. If those things are positive, if I feel good about them, then I can do them, whether or not someone has given me a gift I don't want.
My "spare me" could really have been summarized as "1st world problems". Giving stuff away to needy trumps my own personal feelings of "obligated to do something with a gift given to me". Maybe I over-prioritize in my head about this kinda thing, but reading OP post about experiencing stress sounds kinda lame or just words from too young a person.
"So when I receive something in the mail, no matter how thoughtful it is, it kinda sucks because now I have to figure out how to get rid of it. I feel really wasteful if I just throw it in the trash, so I have to figure out who to give it to. Then I feel bad for whoever spent a bunch of money and time to get and send me something."
Hey Derek - you might find Yerdle a useful outlet for this stuff. It's not selling for USD (so you don't feel bad,) and it's not donation - you swap these things that you don't need for YRD (Yerdle Re-use Dollars) and if you ever do want something you redeem your YRD.
Meanwhile, your unwanted gift goes to someone who actually wants it, and who either can't afford it, or has simply decided not to participate in a consumerist economy. The YRD they spend was earned through a similar give. On Yerdle, our community shops with what they already own, instead of creating more waste through more consumption.
Anyway - way to commit to decluttering, and try that next time, see if it feels better...
I allow myself a single medium size box of sentimental items. If the box should become full, I select some things to photograph and pass them on (though that seldom happens.) Everything else I own must be useful. That is not to say my home is spartan. Art, decor, etc are useful but they must be employed to that prupose. No stashing such things away for future use.
I have a similar arrangement (live in a furnished apartment, don't own stuff, etc) except there is no gift problem - as in my culture (India) reunions are more common than gift-giving.
Perhaps this is a generational thing. When I was much younger, I was also minimalist. My key possessions were the things I could carry to a new apartment, plus a massive stash of books at my parent's house.
Nowadays, I have a house myself, and have spent >15 years converting bare terrain into a garden. I still enjoy travel, but enjoy being grounded in a space I've created myself. Now, my key possessions are good tools: a beefy rig for 3D rendering, a pro-quality camera, some essential garden kit including BBQ, log splitter, leaf blowers, lawn mower, etc and some good general purpose cooking gear (e.g pans and knives). This is my 'essential' toolkit of stuff.
Ironically, I would now find it much easier to part with the majority of my physical book collection, since apart from a few nostalgic items (first hardback edition of The Lord of the Rings, etc) most of this stuff is in the cloud.
Like so many things, minimizing "stuff" falls on a spectrum, and your ability to minimize depends a lot on your status in life (kids, family, wealth). It seems like what the author is talking about here is stuff that gives you neither basic utility nor inspiration, but that you have accepted as part of a social custom that is disconnected from both utility and inspiration.
A beautiful-to-you piece of artwork (or 10) could be worth keeping if provides you inspiration. A really nice chair or couch, or a plant could do the same, as do your family heirlooms. These are examples of stuff that it probably is worth keeping.
Things that do little to nothing to sustain or inspire you, but whose primary purpose is social status signaling are good candidates for stuff reduction.
My girlfriend lives this philosophy of minimalism, and I try to follow it as well. She's had to move at least once a year every year for the past 8 years, and she brings her stuff down to two suitcases each time (with no storage anywhere else).
I'm not as regular at it as she is, but I go through 'stuff cleansings' about once a year. I probably have 4 suitcases/boxes, along with some stuff stored at my parents's place in India.
Living minimally is very freeing. It allows you have to a low maintenance lifestyle, while giving you a sense of security. On the other hand, getting into any hobby becomes a trade ofd between buying and maintaining the equipment, or paying absurd amounts to rent it.
Only keep stuff that gives you a lot of joy or makes you money. Everything else must go!
Read this book if you want to clean up your junk: The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up - The Japanese Art of Decluttering and Organizing by Marie Kondo or atleast watch her talk on YouTube - very inspiring.
I looooove purging stuff from my life. I'm about to move again in a couple months and will sell, donate and throw away pretty much most of my current possessions.
It's a great freeing feeling, and I'm not one that gets sentimental over inanimate objects.
I feel similarly about wedding registries, for myself emphatically and for others slightly less. I'm fortunate to have everything material possession that I want, asking for more seems wrong to me. I feel incredibly grateful, and couldn't imagine asking anyone, much less people who have less to give material possessions that I don't need. I don't need them, nor would my partner, because we have managed to live to this point without them. If it comes time to register for a wedding, I would only request that donations be given to select charities. </end rant>
I'm not that extreme, but I'm always postponing the day I finally get a trash bag and fill it with everything I don't want or don't need and put it in the trash or sell it on eBay/give it to goodwill.
The favorite part of my house, is the micro studio in my apartment where I keep my electronics stuff (workbench with instruments) and various components like resistors, transistors, caps, inductors, switches, LEDs, glue logic, mcu's soldering stuff. Because I arranged it like it should be, with everything in it's own place.
I really wish we only gave gifts to children and that between adults people would exchange just edibles (wine, chocolates, or some really nice home baked bread) if they exchanged anything at all.
This is something I've written about before, at least indirectly, but I believe not owning much at all has deep therapeutical value. Until recently, I was in a very similar situation to the author, I sold and gave away nearly all of my stuff (an apartment full of it) years ago, to only be left with a backpack and a suitcase worth of stuff. It was extremely liberating, I didn't have things to look at making me wonder whether I used them enough or unfolding years of history associated to it that would burden my mind. By the time I'd gotten accustomed to this lifestyle, the only thing that mattered to me was my passport, and only because I wanted to keep travelling. The rest of my stuff could have been stolen and I would have shrugged at it. After a while, that made me realize that the problem wasn't so much with the belongings themselves, but rather the attachment we develop towards things, sometimes to unhealthy degrees.
My finger in the air theory is, we teach kids to value the things they have, because as adults we work to pay for most things and we know what it's like to not be able to afford something, particularly when it comes to providing for your close ones. Children's concept of money is rather simplistic (or even non-existent), so I believe the value is more emotionally based (there have been studies showing that children ascribe human emotions to inanimate things, among other things). I think this emotional bond with objects remains, to a certain extent, as we grow older, which would also emphasize the idea of owning as a social signal (i.e. "that person has many [friends|things]"). The idea that we should be thankful for the things we have, not the things we might get, is great in theory, but explaining to a small child that they should be thankful for their very life is a bit brutal to say the least.
Not completely sure where I'm going with this. I suppose attachment is something for which you have to both program and de-program yourself to appreciate without being dependent. But even that is made more complicated as soon as another person enters the picture (partner, child, etc.). The way I try to make it work is to offer people tangible signs of affection, such as cooking a nice meal, playing some music, help out with a problem and so on, things that can be valued in and of themselves, but that carry little or no baggage. Likewise, I tend to ask close ones to give me something from themselves, rather than buy things. As the giver, you get to do something you're passionate about and share it with the person you care for. As the receiver, you value the sentiment more profoundly and you learn a little bit more about the other. Anywho, it works for me, YMMV :)
My mom, and to a lesser extent myself, have some attachment issues to old stuff. It's not quite like "Hoarders" but it's worse than it has to be, with lots of books and boxes and boxes of books, shelves buried behind boxes, etc.
Basically, all the stuff we have is a method of remembering the past, and if you are very sentimental, some of it crosses over into "If I get rid of the object, I lose the memory". Trashing stuff then becomes difficult because I have to get past that towards the practical element of "this is just clutter 99% of the time and it impedes my future self", on top of concerns like "I don't want to just trash it if it has value" which make it 10 times as difficult to eliminate stuff.
I'm attacking the problem now with a slow-paced weekly streak to clean and organize things. I don't necessarily throw things out every week, but I do document what I have and how to categorize it. That way I can make a decision without having to open a box and bring out the stuff.
Every time I read anything from Derek Sivers, or see him give a talk, I feel happy and inspired – regardless of whether I agree with what he's actually saying. I like that.
I used to do this, but then I started to really get into cooking, which makes you end up with a ton of stuff! Pots and pans, tools, utensils, appliances, etc.
Bowls bowls bowls and tiny bowls. I'm sure I could make do with much less in the kitchen but that wouldn't be very satisfying to the functional programmer in me.
I grew up with my parents getting us lots of gifts for Christmas and birthdays, but now I realize that I don't enjoy that. I much prefer that they don't send us lots of small gifts that I will have to find a 'spot' for in the house.
I understand how someone can choose to live a very minimalist life. I'm not there yet, but I'm working my way towards having less stuff.
Our family has taken this philosophy as well and you wouldn't believe the animosity we have gotten from it. People calling us selfish for asking for no gifts, or getting upset when we get rid of the stuff they do send even after we asked them not to send anything.
Quite baffling till you understand that giving gifts is the only way some people know how to express themselves.
My daughter just had a birthday and we got a "Frozen" themed waffle maker. It's tiny, cheap, ugly and we already have a waffle maker. Now I have to figure out what to do with it because it's brand new in the box. Unfortunately every day that passes increases the likelihood that it just ends up in the garbage =P
Sounds like it's more for your daughter to experiment with cooking waffles on than to be of practical use? Kind of like an easy-bake-oven. Though if I had a kid I'd just encourage them to use the full appliances to start with. ;) Hopefully you'll take it to Goodwill/equivalent instead. Maybe it'll end up in a landfill after that, but I always feel like I should give people a shot at finding my junk to be their treasure.
I don't get it. His website says he reads quite a few books. Why can't he just create an amazon wishlist full of books he wants to read and refer to that? Problem solved. Nobody likes getting random stuff, but getting things you would have gotten yourself anyway is not a problem, I'd argue.
I assume he reads digital books based on his uncluttered nature and gifting Kindle books is a pain because you can't schedule when it's delivered or create a redemption code. It's just immediately sent to that person's Kindle library.
"Living minimalistic" - life connects you more to the present. In the end, this is what matters most. But having memories makes us more empathetic by virtue of emotions. If you know yourself and connect with humanity no matter what, then living minimalistic could be great! Otherwise not!
After reading this article, I had the thought to view the html source. I wasn't disappointed. :) Very clean and minimal. Very little html, very little css, very little javascript.
In grad school I could fit everything I owned into my small pickup. Now that I am married w/ 3 kids, it would take a semi truck to move. I long for those simpler days. sigh.
It's my birthday today. This is the gift I would like: The gift of not having to expend energy over the issue of gifts and social reactions to them. Thank you.
Best thing about not having a lot of stuff (if you live alone) - studio apartments. Easier to clean, lower rent/utilities, and easy to move whenever you want.
The last time before I moved, I took a bunch of perfectly good furniture and other stuff I didn't want anymore and put it on my street corner. Within a day, it was gone. There was low income housing nearby so maybe one of those people took it.
Love this discussion! I’m currently running Last Minute Gear: www.lastmingear.com which rents outdoors gear for camping/ snowsports in the San Francisco Bay Area. Before that though, the concept was called www.projectborrow.com, very much borrowing!
I want to address why there aren’t “successful” startups here in my experience and my outlook on the future. The 2 dominant forces governing buy vs not-buy behavior for anyone are price & convenience. For example, if a tent costs $200 to buy and $100 to rent, you’re obviously going to buy it, since as long as you get 2 uses out of that tent, it’s financially more worthwhile to buy. If a tent costs $200 to buy and $1 to rent, you’re obviously never going to buy it since you’ll probably never camp 200 times in your life.
In the real world, though, the rental price is fixed and retail prices move. Let’s say the rental price is $20. A nice tent is $200 and a crappy tent is $40. If you’re like most people, you’re going to decide to buy the $40 tent, reasoning that as long as you get 2 uses out of it, you win.
But this is actually very irrational, because it doesn’t account for the fact that:
- that crappy tent may break your 1st trip
- even if not, you’d have to make sure you maintain it well enough such that it’s still usable the 2nd trip (i.e., did you know storing a wet tent can lead to mildew growth?)
- and the psychological/ spatial burden cited elsewhere in this discussion
$40 may be too much of a low ball, but the reasoning above is why people persistently choose to buy instead of rent even though rationally, renting is almost always better. It’s irrational, but such is the amazing magnetic power of the low price. (Should prices be so low in the first place, aka should a bag of chips be cheaper than a bag of carrots, is a-whole-nother debate!)
Borrowing is just like renting, except that the cost is the value of your time in finding a lender and sorting out all the logistics. This has its own set of complications, because what I found is that different people place different premiums on non-monetary values (aka convenience). In other words, some people would rather pay a taxi back and forth $40 to get a tent for free, while others would rather rent a tent at a store for $40. Same cash outflow, but vastly different user beliefs about which is more “worth it.” Here’s an extreme example: if I told you that the building you lived in would stock a mini “toolbox” on every floor so residents could share things like drills, and the building would cover all costs, you can bet that plenty of people are still going to buy their own things. Your closet is 10 feet closer, and therefore, to some people, a million bucks more worth it. (Consider the startup service provider Alfred.)
Because people are so different in how they perceive the value of not buying, I think it’s improbable to have a product that works for even 50% of the market. In fact, I’d venture that stuff-sharing startups will continue, but you’ll see a lot of smaller players rather than large. But that of course limits investment, which further limits the appeal of this space.
I'm a photographer -> Two bags full of camera gear, tripod...
I'm a hiker/backpacker -> Backpack, tent, sleeping bag, hiking boots...
I'm a cyclist -> Bike, helmet, gloves, pump...
I'm a computer engineer -> Solder station, wire cutters, crimping tools...
I'm a DIYer -> Saws, hammers, screwdrivers...
I would love to have less stuff, but the amount of myself that I would have to strip away for it to make sense is mind boggling to me. I go looking to get rid of stuff all the time, but even though I have a lot of things, I use all of them. I truly can't wrap my head around the idea of living a fulfilling life with only a laptop and whatever furnishings came with my apartment.